Is marriage failing as an institution because of reduced economic viability?

[MatureDJ]

www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/...n_only_middle_class_americans_can_afford.html

Thanks to falling working-class wages, the outsourcing of American manufacturing, the thinning of company benefits, and the rise of part-time and self-employment, American jobs are, in many ways, less stable than ever. Unskilled workers without a higher education are finding it more difficult to translate blue-collar work into middle-class stability. Many of the working-class Americans interviewed by Silva and Corse are now too concerned with maintaining their “own survival” to “imagine being able to provide materially and emotionally for others.” Meanwhile, marriage itself has transformed into a luxury item. Over the past century, the old model of obligatory American marriage, which was "rooted in male authority" and "backed by both religious and legal mandates," gave way to “companionate” marriages dedicated to prioritizing “the couple as equal individuals” in the family structure. Now, as Silva and Corse tell it, a new age of “therapeutic” marriage has arisen to focus on the “happiness, equality, mutuality, and self-actualization of individuals.”

Of course, I seem to remember even more difficult times during the Great Depression, yet those marriages were rock solid. Perhaps it is the "self-actualization" of wives that is causing the problem? Hmm? :yes:

 

[Warrior74]

You can't fend off the wolves with one at your back.

 

[Tictac]

"Marriage is a wonderful institution. Bur who wants to live in an institution?"

Groucho Marx

 

[seasonedplayer]

Marriage is failing for the following reasons
A) divorce laws empowering women
B) technology - prior to the Internet and television, women did not have all these stereotype visions of women needing new shoes, new cell phone, holidays etc.
c) financial stress - the concept of credit cards and big mortgages is a phenomenon of the last 25 years. Prior to that, people spent what they had and many women did not have access to money aside from a cash allowance for food
D) erosion of religious values

 

[disgustipated]

I just don't get it anymore. I hear about men in blue collar jobs being able to support large families back in the day while the wife stayed home, my grandpas generation. Now, that's laughable unless the wife does not value extras( HAH!) and or is actively trying to save money with the husband. It's just a different world nowadays.

I'm blue collar, but very good at what I do. There is no way I could support a woman that didn't work even if I wanted to...I don't want btw. Should I be able to? I don't know, but for a guy who is relatively cheap...I still have to watch my money. It's ridiculous for how hard I work.....especially when I compare myself to someone I work with whom I out perform greatly...but I suppose that's an issue to take up with management.

There are some times, when I'm in a zone when I do the work of two guys because I know and perform our processes so well. They could literally get rid of one underperformer because of me....or Hell, give me half their salary too. I don't understand how a guy like me, with tons others in same spot, is supposed to get ahead....or much less entertain having a family.

I'd have to get a huge promotion, another career altogether, 2 2nd jobs, or start and grow a sucessful business. Blue collar to riches story, anyone?

 

[sodbuster]

Warrior, was going to rep you...but they wouldn't let me. Supposed to spread it around???? I only rep about every 3 months...guess you were the last one

 

[Jules_Winfield]

Marriage is failing for the following reasons
A) divorce laws empowering women
B) technology - prior to the Internet and television, women did not have all these stereotype visions of women needing new shoes, new cell phone, holidays etc.
c) financial stress - the concept of credit cards and big mortgages is a phenomenon of the last 25 years. Prior to that, people spent what they had and many women did not have access to money aside from a cash allowance for food
D) erosion of religious values

E) Women now cheat as much as men.

 

[zekko]

I just don't get it anymore. I hear about men in blue collar jobs being able to support large families back in the day while the wife stayed home, my grandpas generation.

I think back in those days, families lived very simple and frugal lives. They didn't feel entitled to luxuries like cable TV, DVDs, multiple cars, take out meals, meat every day, appliances like washers and dryers, etc. Kids would have to wear their older sibllings' shoes. Like seasonedplayer noted, the media sells the idea that everybody has to have everything, so that's part of it.

The flipside is things like healthcare have become much more expensive. Even to rent a house these days can cost a small fortune. So between the higher expectations and higher costs, most couples need two incomes to live, let alone support children.

 

[The_411]

E) Women now cheat as much as men.

Women now cheat much more than men.

 

[Warrior74]

I think back in those days, families lived very simple and frugal lives. They didn't feel entitled to luxuries like cable TV, DVDs, multiple cars, take out meals, meat every day, appliances like washers and dryers, etc. Kids would have to wear their older sibllings' shoes. Like seasonedplayer noted, the media sells the idea that everybody has to have everything, so that's part of it.

The flipside is things like healthcare have become much more expensive. Even to rent a house these days can cost a small fortune. So between the higher expectations and higher costs, most couples need two incomes to live, let alone support children.

This. I haven't had cable in almost 5 years. My housemate is dying from not being able to watch football. Grumbles because I don't want to pay for it. Grumbles because I refuse to get in debt to buy furniture like he does. Grumbles because I work two jobs and won't help take care of the dog he rescued, hell he's home less than I am. Grumbles because I refuse to go out and spend money drinking all the time. I'm almost out of debt, I've paid off all my credit cards and my car. he's nearly 20k in the whole on lifestyle sh1t.

My ex couldn't go 3 years of frugal living in order to keep nearly %50 of her pay check for the rest of her life. These are the people that make up modern american society now. Lazy, entitled, instant gratification.

I just bought my first pair of brand new jeans in 5 years. I buy most of my clothes at goodwill but now I am moving into professional circles and I'm stepping my wardrobe up. I haven't bought a new pair of shoes in 5 years. I've bought used, second hand, or taken donated shoes. Its been hard and it sucks living like a "poor person" but I learned to spend my free time in the office working and reading and preparing for what's coming next in life.

 

[nismo-4]

Women now cheat much more than men.

All in all, F**k marriage!

In marriage, a man has nothing to gain and everything to lose. the woman has everything to gain and nothing to lose.

 

[Stagger Lee]

I think back in those days, families lived very simple and frugal lives. They didn't feel entitled to luxuries like cable TV, DVDs, multiple cars, take out meals, meat every day, appliances like washers and dryers, etc. Kids would have to wear their older sibllings' shoes. Like seasonedplayer noted, the media sells the idea that everybody has to have everything, so that's part of it.

The flipside is things like healthcare have become much more expensive. Even to rent a house these days can cost a small fortune. So between the higher expectations and higher costs, most couples need two incomes to live, let alone support children.

I don't think so really. My dad and most of his generation had a blue collar job and a wife at home and kids. They may not had cable or internet, but they were buying new cars every year or two, houses, clothes, even boats etc. Most people only needed one car and it was fairly new, and had a tv and washer and dryer.

Even blue collar workers at least in manufacturing could not only support a family and wife but had lots of disposable income. Oh yeah he like others had lifetime job security, great healthcare for the whole family and retirement benefits. The average male is so ripped off today in regards to jobs and women.

Oh yeah my only male sibling that's married and stayed married, makes about ~$100k year, but he only keeps one vehicle and keeps his wife at home. He doesn't let her azz go any where without him. Having your wife out working is a sure way to have her hit on, her head filled full of sh!t about how you're a bad guy, and cheating on you.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear MDJ,
You have some very good posts here....Sadly you must admit the Genie is out of the bottle,"The moving finger writes,and having writ,not all our tears and entreaties,will lure it back to rub out one letter"...So these posts just confirm the wisdom of those of us who embrace a DJ's lifestyle.
Might I be a Devils advocate though,as the only guy on this thread,apart from Tic-Tac who can remember the early fifties.I don't remember Women being happy much,they stayed at home,without basic whitegoods,they led lives of dull drudgery....What were the options?pretty bleak,no single mothers pensions,refuges,crisis centres....The Husband controlled the finances,no Family Courts those Days,they just got on with it!....From my reading I would gather that morality amongst the upper classes was pretty much the same as today...People are People,human nature doesn't change,just opportunities and options...May be heretical thinking,but I believe most of us come hard wired with basic moral standards,sure these mores have to be triggered during early Childhood,but they are there!

 

[seasonedplayer]

Wrong. I agree with zekko. I remember when Nike shoes were something only worn by rich people. Now they are mainstream. Up until the 1990s, eating takeout was a treat and only done if the wife was under massive pressure at work and couldn't cook. Now even low income people eat takeout every day instead of cooking for less than half the price. I am shocked these days when I visit couples with young children and see the amount of toys they have. I used to get one or two new toys every year and still succeeded acdemically

True that the standard salary has shrunk but it is still enough for the basics we used to live on. There is no justification for women that don't work to own the latest iPhone

I don't think so really. My dad and most of his generation had a blue collar job and a wife at home and kids. They may not had cable or internet, but they were buying new cars every year or two, houses, clothes, even boats etc. Most people only needed one car and it was fairly new, and had a tv and washer and dryer.

Even blue collar workers at least in manufacturing could not only support a family and wife but had lots of disposable income. Oh yeah he like others had lifetime job security, great healthcare for the whole family and retirement benefits. The average male is so ripped off today in regards to jobs and women.

Oh yeah my only male sibling that's married and stayed married, makes about ~$100k year, but he only keeps one vehicle and keeps his wife at home. He doesn't let her azz go any where without him. Having your wife out working is a sure way to have her hit on, her head filled full of sh!t about how you're a bad guy, and cheating on you.

 

[Zarky]

I think it's a result of lots of different social forces, but can be boiled down to the following: neither men nor women find it necessary any longer.

 

[( . )( . )]

I think it's a result of lots of different social forces, but can be boiled down to the following: neither men nor women find it necessary any longer.

She's right. For women the creation of make work cubicle jobs + the guaranteed transfer of wealth from all men instead of just one if she decides to opt-out of paper shuffling means she no longer needs marriage. For men the reasons are obvious.

 

[Jules_Winfield]

Women now cheat much more than men.

Yeah, that brings back bad memories. A woman once left me for one of her former rapists.

What I've noticed with women these days is that they're not marriage material. I'm in my late-thirties and can't relate to women my age and younger. Most of the women appear to be dumb, self-absorbed, entitled, and everything else mentioned on this site. Some of them even flaunt their promiscuity because they're "equal" to men. I think women use generic excuses for divorce so they won't look bad while disbanding their families.

A female friend, who is not attractive, noticed that a lot of married men in her various social circles are attracted to her. She said the wives make the guy's lives miserable, so they gravitate towards her because she has a fun personality and knows a little about everything. She was surprised by all the unhappily married people.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Back in the old days, marriages were a lot more stable because there was NO government safety net.

There's a strong correlation between how many "benefits" and "protection" you can get from governments and how less attractive "marriage" is.

Marriages are rarely about love. Sure they start that way, but they are held together by partners who share common goals, and work together to achieve those goals.

This is actually the foundation of human society, and why humans came to dominate the planet from an evolutionary standpoint:

Sexual Division Of Labor.

Before the rise of swelling governments that promised voters anything and everything, families, centered around stable marriages, were the bedrock of society.

Back then, there was no welfare, no free health care, no unemployment insurance, no minimum wage, no guarantees.

In that environment, being a member of a strong family whose members (husbands, wives, kids, and to an extent, neighbors) had each others back was all you had.

Leaving the family simply because you weren't feeling "fulfilled" was simply not an option. It wasn't even a consideration.

Now with world governments promising anything and everything, and handing out welfare benefits and foodstamps and subsidized housing to anybody and everybody, those days are long, long gone, never to return.

The support of the STATE has taken place of the family.

And the rise of the STATE is directly responsible for failed marriages, broken homes, out of wedlock births, and the subsequent rising crime rates eventual destruction of society.

All ills in society are born first in the existence of the STATE.

Without the existence of the STATE, women have no options but to hitch up with a guy and hang on for dear life.

The support, wealth, and stability that women use to find only with men, is now being provided by THE STATE.

 

[sodbuster]

I was going to rep you, but couldn't? First Warrior and now you? Is this a socialist site where I have to share the wealth with EVERYONE???? Not everyone deserves it....

 

[Stagger Lee]

Wrong. I agree with zekko. I remember when Nike shoes were something only worn by rich people. Now they are mainstream. Up until the 1990s, eating takeout was a treat and only done if the wife was under massive pressure at work and couldn't cook. Now even low income people eat takeout every day instead of cooking for less than half the price. I am shocked these days when I visit couples with young children and see the amount of toys they have. I used to get one or two new toys every year and still succeeded acdemically

True that the standard salary has shrunk but it is still enough for the basics we used to live on. There is no justification for women that don't work to own the latest iPhone

Well that's not how it was in the US back before the 90's, 80's etc. My dad was a factory worker solely supporting a family 5, we always had a new car every year or two, one time even a new Cadillac and another a 4wd Blazer, we even had an Atari computer not just the game console but also the Atari game console in the early very 80's. This was the case for most of the other kids in my neighborhood. And they all just about wore nikes or some other brand name athletic shoe in the 90's. We ate out sometimes but didn't need to eat out because my mom cooked breakfast and dinner like a wife was expected to back then, and ate lunch at school most days. People were eating out here in 90's too because there was restaurants everywhere and they were always hiring. The whole family also had full healthcare, vision and dental.

Not only that a lot of the products people bought were quality made in USA, not just marked up junk made in china. This was typical for a lot of families in the US from the 1950's up till about the 80's or 90's.

Now there's no jobs really even for college graduates and manufacture jobs are often temporary positions, with no benefits and not much higher than minimum wage. No one can tell me at least in the US everything didn't go to pot. Nowadays, you need at elast a Bachelor's in engineering and a little luck to just earn what a factory worker with no college did and everything is inflating in cost.