Independent Women

[BeExcellent]

2. Your second question is more interesting to the audience I would think. Basically you are wondering if I would relinquish control or leadership to a man. The answer is heavens yes!!! And the answer is yes precisely because I do know what that leadership role is like (having been in it myself for so long) and I therefore have a deep appreciation and understanding of what the burden of that responsibility feels like to carry (think of Atlas) day in and day out. It takes courage and guts to face the world every day, to get knocked around, to get discouraged and bloodied by life. And when you get home there needs to be a safe haven in which to recharge and relax to go do it all again the next day. For me it would be a joy to provide that safe haven to the right man and support him in pursuit of his ambitions or life goals although it would have to be a man in whose ability and competency I trust in enough to know he does not need my help but rather he takes it under advisement and reaches decisions which he then owns fully. To be by the side of such a man would allow me the pleasure of helping him & assisting him, of caring for him and supporting him. These are things I see very happily married women I know doing for their spouses and it is amazing when you can see couples who surmount life's fires together, and they become forged, like steel.

My issue is there cannot be a leadership vacuum. I will move to fill a leadership vacuum without hesitation.

And your story about your divorce, Augustus is far to common these days. Thank you for sharing it here. I was very, very lucky my ex did not create similar troubles for me. Lord knows he could have.

Cheers!
BE

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

BeExcellent,

Would you mind indulging a few more questions?

Can you shed some light on this passage?

"...Without becoming a brute or an octopus. He showed unmistakable interest and also restraint (this is an area many men do not understand well here)".

Brute?

Octopus?

And how does the many men not understanding showing interest and also restraint manifest itself?

-Augustus-

 

[BeExcellent]

But Did you have sex with him?

Yes and I still do and enjoy him thoroughly.

But I didn't right away. I go into this in some detail in the "How to spot a Unicorn" thread toward the back of the thread. Keep in mind that I see him much less than I would were we local to one another.

He's the only one since my ex.

 

[BeExcellent]

With regard to the Brute/Octopus comment....

A high value man KNOWS he is desirable. He has choices. He understands that creation of sexual tension is a delight when he means to seduce a woman. He knows that women's attraction is more complex and less linear than than a man's. He leaves no question about his sexual intent but he is nuanced enough to understand that women, especially highly sought after women constantly have men ogling, smothering or putting them off with behavior that is too sexually aggressive.

What I mean by an Octopus:

Sexually aggressiveness where a man continues kino in a overt way despite the woman expressing discomfort or closing her body language...continued attempts to make out or pursue vulgar behavior (grabbing boobs, fingering in public...gross) are not things an elegant woman is going to tolerate, certainly not on a first date or first encounter environment. This man will not keep his hands to himself and has no patience or class.

A top shelf woman is going to be turned off by such behavior. The Octopus leaves the woman wanting to escape, and happy she got away, even though she may be too polite to tell you it's a problem. But she won't return your contact.

The Brute to follow

 

[Howiestern]

Everything @BeExcellent has stated about independent women has been true in regards to one I am seeing right now. Most girls I find it very easy to have sechs with within 2-3 simple dates. Its simply not the case with a more emotionally stable/independent women. I’ve had to slowly increase the sechsual tension. Its almost more mental seduction than the physical side in turning her on. Its real important that she gets to know who I am and what I’m after. This is where the attraction/desire comes from. There’s definitely a multitude of switches that need flipped before sechs happens. I’ve had to exhibit a ton of patience, but that’s ok with me because I see more value in her than most all women I’ve had. She’s made it clear by her actions that she is no tease but she isn’t going to give it all up until she is ready. There’s an old saying……easy come, easy go…… and the faster they come, the faster they leave. If its cheap and easy, anybody can get it. Why would I want something that anybody can get when I'm better than most?

The hardest part is unlearning what I have been accustomed to all of these years. But I can tell you this, the games are non-existent, she follows thru with what she agrees on, she still wants a man to lead, she wants to do her part, at the end of the day she is still a caring woman that we all desire, but she isn’t going to smother me for sure. Sechs isn’t the driving factor in this relationship.

 

[Will21st]

sounds like a catch. I mean you.

 

[BeExcellent]

I think there is indeed a lot of unlearning for men to do when they encounter this type of woman. As @Howiestern alluded to this is a woman who is going to be upfront and communicate her interest level (no game playing), she is not insecure (no incessant texting for meaningless conversation) -she doesn't need a man's validation although she genuinely enjoys his attention, she wants to be vulnerable but she has self control although she may want sex herself very much. She also will typically look for a level of emotional investment (which takes time) before she'll have sex with you.

She knows she is valuable and she appreciates a man who takes his time and allows intimacy to build. Great sex and real comfort require intimacy. The serial one night stand guys and the serial plate spinners are not building intimacy, and I have to wonder if they have any idea what they are missing.

 

[BeExcellent]

Ok. The Brute. Then I gotta watch baseball as it just got real interesting.

The Brute (as I see it) is not physically over powering so much as he has a self serving attitude, is at times banal or vulgar, at times arrogant and misses social cues. His arrogance assumes his actions are what the woman wants since he is so amazing. The Brute lacks emotional intelligence and doesn't realize that his failure to read a woman's cues is boorish and boring. He is the chronic interrupter, the braggart, the show off. He often expects sex early and is pushy about it, and he is the sort to ridicule or insult a woman for rebuffing his advances. These insults may be of the subtle, insinuating type or of a more direct nature. This was true of the high powered lawyer I went out to dinner with recently. He did not like hearing "no thank you" after he spent his precious time taking me out. Notice how only his time factors into the equation (the value of my time was wholly overlooked).

These are sometimes high powered men accustomed to women chasing after them for their "resources", and these men can be in fact tremendously insecure and controlling.

A woman like me again, as with the Octopus will seek to get away. The good news is that a Brute with a bruised ego isn't going to bother calling again. Thank God!

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

A lawyer who was an azzhole... Imagine that.

BeExcellent,

Roughly what percentage of men by your estimate are either a brute, octopus or both?

-Augustus-

 

[BeExcellent]

Of the men I have been out with since my divorce the percent of brutes/octopus types has actually been fairly low. The one attorney was an ass to be sure (although he was very nice at the beginning of the date), but I have also been out with another attorney, also from SoCal in a similarly exclusive area who was a great date. He was also younger, 42 as opposed to the LA guy, who was 55.

This I think is partly because I meet most men in real life (online dating I find to be a complete waste of time), and if a man is too pushy upon meeting in real life...he isn't someone I will go out with at all.

I also meet as a matter of course very successful men. To reach a level of success men need to have social acuity as a rule, so most men know and respect social mores.

I have run into the occasional man who, usually after having consumed alcohol, has tried to kiss me or cop a feel after a little conversation...this is extremely disrespectful behavior in a social setting and cannot be tolerated or dealt with kindly.

Men like that are brute/octopus types from a mile away and it's no surprise that they are single. The brute/octopus behavior is especially offensive in older men who should have higher social awareness commiserate with their life experience.

A little kino is fine if a woman is receptive of course...but a man should always be cognizant of the response and the cues a woman is giving. If you as a man sense she is withdrawing, pull back.

A woman with class cares how a man's behavior reflects upon her, and vulgar behavior always reflects badly on a woman.

You should build intrigue. Leave her wanting more rather than wanting to escape from you.

The man I see long distance was subtly nervous when he met me. I was also a little nervous. Because I am naturally aloof I know I can be hard to read as far as interest level. So when we changed venues (the date was going well) we had a bit to walk. I asked if I could hold his hand because "I'm rusty".

He held my hand and did light kino throughout the rest of the date. On the walk back to my car he stopped and kissed me (and I knew he was about to from his body language). It was a lovely kiss. After the kiss we went back to chatting & walking. When we reached my car he gave me a warm embrace, and a short kiss goodnight...and he left.

Why am I posting all this? Because this is a man who left me wanting MORE instead of happy to escape from him.

This is a very different tack than the kino, escalate escalate escalatemake her say no crowd espouses.

The independent type women discussed in this thread are not going to give the escalate escalate escalate guy the time of day because she is going to find such behavior overly aggressive and a complete turn off.

She is a woman with many choices and such boorish behavior is going to remove a man from contention with her.

These are women who know the game. These are women with solid inner game. They know a man wants sex. They expect patience and investment before they give up sex. A man needs to have solid inner game to succeed with such women, and a man will find this type of woman to be head and shoulders above the rest in terms of character and quality.

Which is why so few are in the market at any given time. This is the kind of woman men lock down for themselves.

 

[LARaiders85]

The funny thing about deesade and BeExcellent...they're both always the hero of their own story...there's a clinical word for that. Keep it up guys!

I have to side more with deesade though...the independent women I know are chasing the bad boys but then again we are talking pre-wall.

 

[BeExcellent]

I have no issue at all with @deesade but I also know we are operating from different perspectives. He's in his early 30's gaming women around 25.

I'm old enough to be his mother & I prefer dating men around 50 give or take a few years.

There are certainly commonalities but there are also differences in the market. The differences lie in the 20 years of life experience between us. If you don't think I recognize "game" from ten miles away you are grossly mistaken. If you don't think I know how to play the game you are grossly mistaken also.

@deesade does what is working well for him in his chosen market segment. I personally think he is well experienced in his segment and his paradigm holds true based on his personal experience.

But the paradigm I'm describing and that @Howiestern and other guys who are older are describing is also true. Nobody is lapping up what I'm saying hook, line & sinker. If anything my view is met with skepticism and more than a few eye rolls because I'm a chick. I totally understand that. Men who agree are in agreement based on their own personal experience. Both sets of experience are true and one is not mutually exclusive of the other.

I'm not dating people like @deesade any more than he is dating people like me. We move in different environments.

My ex is 50. He can pull women in their mid 20's. He finds them boring, immature and not relatable. Even though he could screw them. He is like "what's the point?" Upping his notch count isn't important to him. Having a woman with value (to him) is. He can take or leave dating altogether.

Things appear much more black & white when people are younger. That's not a criticism at all, it's just life.

Many of my comments here are in response to questions directed specifically to me. I think context is necessary to understand why I say and do as I do. As I've said before I don't like threads being about "me" per se, but I represent a viewpoint that might have value or that may resonate with some people.

If it adds value fine, if it doesn't fine. Doesn't effect me whatsoever. It's just a perspective borne out of my own life experience.

 

[sodbuster]

When a woman tell's me she's "independent', it's code for pain in the ass. IF they show me they have their act together, that's different. I'll have respect for them. Not saying I'd date them..... I've got enough other stuff stressing me out, dating isn't going to be one of them. I've rarely found a woman worth a bunch of effort..... so, I'm likely to prejudge and pass on a unicorn someday.

Since my major goal is to be able to retire in 2 years, that takes priority. Not saying I WILL, but I want F@ck you money.... so I can. Freedom isn't something I've had being tied to patients and a schedule.....

 

[BeExcellent]

Well I'm no cheater. I was loyal and got divorced at great financial peril because being married & having a thing on the side was not in my character. And I didn't date anyone until the divorce was final.

That is more than I can say for many women.

I agree it's harder for men.

For a beautiful woman having choices about men is like shooting fish in a barrel. That's the way it is.

It's much harder as a beautiful woman to gain respect in the business world. Men see beauty and boobs and assume your intelligence is inversely proportional to your cup size. Men also assume you seduced your way up. It used to annoy me. I still get underestimated a lot in business. It's great fun now, but it did used to bug me when I was younger.

My whole point in being here at all is to encourage men to get out there and better themselves.

And my goal is also to retire in 2 years, by my 50th birthday. Tell you what @sodbuster. . . I'll race you.

 

[BeTheChange]

This is a very different tack than the kino, escalate escalate escalatemake her say no crowd espouses.

The independent type women discussed in this thread are not going to give the escalate escalate escalate guy the time of day because she is going to find such behavior overly aggressive and a complete turn off.

She is a woman with many choices and such boorish behavior is going to remove a man from contention with her.

These are women who know the game. These are women with solid inner game. They know a man wants sex. They expect patience and investment before they give up sex. A man needs to have solid inner game to succeed with such women, and a man will find this type of woman to be head and shoulders above the rest in terms of character and quality.

Which is why so few are in the market at any given time. This is the kind of woman men lock down for themselves.

That's fine. Just don't be surprised to find that the man's response is to start spinning plates (if he isn't already) and in doing so you increase the likelihood of him finding a more willing partner who isn't going to make him "wait".

Generally I think your advice is solid but this post just screams that the woman is the prize.

Equating value with willingness to have sex isn't necessarily the best approach and an experienced gane aware guy will see through this.

It's always amused me when women have made me "wait" for sex in the same way you are doing and then are surprised to find out I'm spinning other plates. What were you expecting????

 

[Roober]

The independent woman, I believe that is what I have on my hands now. I believe these women love fiercely and may provide the best connection down the road, but that takes much more time than men are willing to give it. In this now now now society, it makes this kind of relationship very difficult.

 

[Howiestern]

http://elevatedtoday.com/2015/03/24/16-things-to-expect-when-you-date-an-independent-girl/

Here's a link to something I read in regards to dating independent women. I'm still trying to get this type figured out but it really stood out to me. This is exactly what I've experienced:

Bullet Points:
1. Things will go slow.
2. You will sometimes be out of the loop.
3. She'll want to stay independent.
4. She'll fight and expect you to fight back.
5. She'll need her space.
6. She won't always be good at reading you.
7. She won't let you in at first.
8. She might come off as pretty strong.
9. She'll be direct.
10. She will be stubborn.
11. She'll seem aloof and uninterested.
12. Don't push her trust.
13. She's scared but doesn't want you to see it.
14. She'll be passionate once she accepts you.
15. She'll be vulnerable.
16. She'll be unforgettable.

 

[LARaiders85]

http://elevatedtoday.com/2015/03/24/16-things-to-expect-when-you-date-an-independent-girl/

Here's a link to something I read in regards to dating independent women. I'm still trying to get this type figured out but it really stood out to me. This is exactly what I've experienced:

Bullet Points:
1. Things will go slow.
2. You will sometimes be out of the loop.
3. She'll want to stay independent.
4. She'll fight and expect you to fight back.
5. She'll need her space.
6. She won't always be good at reading you.
7. She won't let you in at first.
8. She might come off as pretty strong.
9. She'll be direct.
10. She will be stubborn.
11. She'll seem aloof and uninterested.
12. Don't push her trust.
13. She's scared but doesn't want you to see it.
14. She'll be passionate once she accepts you.
15. She'll be vulnerable.
16. She'll be unforgettable.

You can't be serious...mega red flags

 

[BeTheChange]

http://elevatedtoday.com/2015/03/24/16-things-to-expect-when-you-date-an-independent-girl/

Here's a link to something I read in regards to dating independent women. I'm still trying to get this type figured out but it really stood out to me. This is exactly what I've experienced:

Bullet Points:
1. Things will go slow.
2. You will sometimes be out of the loop.
3. She'll want to stay independent.
4. She'll fight and expect you to fight back.
5. She'll need her space.
6. She won't always be good at reading you.
7. She won't let you in at first.
8. She might come off as pretty strong.
9. She'll be direct.
10. She will be stubborn.
11. She'll seem aloof and uninterested.
12. Don't push her trust.
13. She's scared but doesn't want you to see it.
14. She'll be passionate once she accepts you.
15. She'll be vulnerable.
16. She'll be unforgettable.

Sounds like a hag. Since when are these desirable qualities?

 

[BeExcellent]

this post just screams that the woman is the prize

Not really. There is a segment of the dating market, both male and female that has the highest value relative to the rest of the market. High caliber people have their lives together, have a great deal to offer and generally matriculate to one another. Wise high caliber women understand that the high value man needs to be the leader and appreciate him for it. So they defer and allow him his natural role.

Wise high value men realize that the highest caliber women need enough time to see and recognize his value. In this process each reveals character to the other. High caliber or independent women are going to hold off on sex not for some contrived reason but because they do not want to become involved with someone who doesn't appreciate their value.

A man can obviously spin plates if is he so inclined, but he does so at the risk of running off a type of woman who is rare to start with. A woman can date other men too if she has a high value guy on her hands. Neither the high value man nor the high caliber woman is going to tolerate being a plate for long. Many high value women DO want marriage and won't go along as "just" a girlfriend forever either. High value people expect their value to be recognized or they move on. This is true of both men and women.