Help decoding this

zekko

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I think this was sarcasm directed at OP's initial short-sighted comment about not listening to any posters over 50 who offered advice against his own (limited) views.
Yeah well, this is a message board, so he's going to get it anyway. When I was growing up, we had what we called the Generation Gap, and "Don't trust anyone over 30", and even in The Breakfast Club they said "When you get old, the heart dies" and whatever so I get it. But there was still a recognition that sometimes wisdom could be learned if you listened to your elders, the concept (if not the reality) that the elders had an honored place in the tribe.

But these days, like so many other things, it's all hate - stupid Boomers, you stole all our money and purposely destroyed the world just to screw us - why don't you hurry up and die?! Very toxic. My answer to that is, sorry, our politicians screwed us over too, this isn't what we wanted.
 

Barrister

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The advice i'm looking for is really just trying to understand her mindset, either in case we do end up working out sometime or with a future partner to not fall down this hole again.

Now I guess what I want to know is why do girls do this? She acts like I'm the only one she wants but when I end it, she only cries, but never really fought back to keep me. She kinda accepted it like I was the one making the decision, rather than getting forced to. Of course I'm not the most perfect man, but I truly did love her as much as I could. Also I know almost all of you will say don't get back to her, and I do understand, but I really did want this one to work out. For anyone that has gone through and made it work, how did you make sure she was properly changed? How do you properly reestablish frame and make sure it lasts?

I don't need answers from guys who are 50 and haven't settled down, because they think they need to play the game more and get more 20 year old *****. I find that sad. If there's any mature guys with real answer I would appreciate hearing it.
First off, telling us you don't need to hear from our most seasoned men on this forum isn't a good way to start your first post.

Second, and more to your question(s), "dread game" as we call it and as you have employed here can only be used on a temporary basis. It essentially acts as a band aid to prolong a relationship but it is not a full scale cure for the underlying issues. Clearly, this girl, either through unrealistic expectations or the fact that you seem to not be leading as a man should, is in a state where she is doubting your LTR. You imposing dread game makes her hamster spin and drums up here interest in short bursts. But it isn't changing the underlying issue.

If she has unrealistic expectations, it just means she isn't the right woman and you should just end it and move on rather than stay on the emotional rollercoaster. Granted, at 24 I was having my fair share of those types of situations. However, and I suspect this might be the case, if you are failing to be the leader of the relationship, this can also cause these doubts for her. You mentioned complacency. A leader doesn't get complacent. Your decisions read as arbitrary/capricious like deciding to end things after she becomes submissive. A leader isn't arbitrary or emotionally needy because he feels he isn't being respected. Picture Pierce Brosnan from James Bond -- that is your persona (confidence) you need to aim for. Believe in yourself and your decisions and make those known to your woman.

You are a young guy. At 24 I was very blue pill and didn't understand any of this. You have a long way to go like most of us (including me) did at your age. However, one principle to always keep in dating (and life at large), is to make firm decisions, set firm boundaries, and make those decisions and boundaries very clear to the other side. You cut down on this from women when you do those things.
 

RangerMIke

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This part interested me because I haven't heard anyone say filling up the car was a man's job in a long time - I did used to hear it years ago, but not not. Lol, when I was a kid the gas station attendant came out and filled up your car. Might even wash your windows or check your oil while you waited - obviously those were different times...
Same. My dad used to take my mom's car to get filled up at least once a week. In fact, the day before he died he'd taken mom's car to fill it up. I always thought it was odd, but he said "Your mom hates pumping gas, and this only takes me 15 minutes a week, she does plenty for me."

This is old school attitude, but it makes sense from a certain point of view.
 

BeExcellent

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I see I have been paged. Here is advice from the old lady:

First: You are 24 years old. You are quite young and have the bulk of your life ahead of you. Most 24 year olds are still maturing in the mental/emotional (limbic system) of the mind. So don't beat yourself up. In all liklihood your life goals are still forming. So its a wandering journey until you decide/determine the path you are on.

That meandering while you sort yourself out can feel very unstable in relationship.

Second: She seemed to know exactly what she wants. She wants to be a wife and mother. She also seems conflict averse. Meaning she (like most women) is not going to conversate with you in a direct, to the point way. She had a well defined notion of what she wants her life to be. You did not/do not.

I think she cared for you, loved you even, but you taught her that she is wasting time waiting for you to develop into a man capable of having a SAHM partner. Once she recognized this, and didn't see progress in you that aligned with her goals she made things uncomfortable enough that you let her go.....but she had already reached the conclusion that you were not the type of man to meet her expectations, so she is moving on.....she was checked out of the relationship for a while before you broke up.

She wanted you to "be the man". She wanted you to break up. That way you get to preserve your ego, she isn't the bad guy, and she is free to move on cleanly, as are you. She recognized that y'all were not on the same page long term.

Do you see that?

Third: Here is the thing that young men need to grasp. Let's say you want the trad-con wife, the trad-con life.....that's great....but it comes with tremendous responsibilities. Having a SAHM raise your children at home is a status symbol among the affluent for a reason - it requires resources. It is very expensive to fully support a spouse and a family. I know. I've done it (my first husband was a full time stay at home father and we had 3 kids, I was the breadwinner)....that is another story because our dynamic was backwards.....but its a big responsibility and you must have ambition, purpose, a life plan and some drive to shoulder that role. It ain't for sissies.

My son is your age. He is good looking, fit, socially adroit and ambitious. He is married to a cute gal, and they have 2 children. He has wanted to be a pilot since he knew what an airplane was. He focused on that goal all his life. And no he didn't do everything perfect. He got his degree in 4 years, was in ROTC and is currently a military officer. He remains focused on his goal of being a pilot, and he also wanted to be a father, have a wife and raise kids. He is doing those things, following his life plan, following his purpose....

But he made a road map for his life. He knows what he wants and where he is going. He WILL get there. A man with that kind of purpose and plan is what trad-con young women want to get on board with. He also blew off playing around with various women. He had two girlfriends, the second one since high school. They talked about getting married for 4 years before they actually married. The timeline was 1. Get education completed. 2. Commission. 3. Get married. 4. Start family. All the while my son has been pursuing his pilot's license (he will have his check ride soon). His wife fully supported his life plan, embraced fitting into his vision, and trusted his ability to accomplish what he set out to do.

Around here we talk alot about self improvement and purpose. Become your best self and get your life purpose on track. Do that and the woman thing will sort itself out. This girl is gone I think. She is already prepared to get life going with someone who has already prepared himself to handle a trad-con lifestyle. Right now that is not you. I know some of this is tough to hear. You are too far behind in that regard to suddenly level up in this area. By all means prove me wrong....no one will be happier for you than me....

That is what I see here based on what you have shared. I wish you well, but get your act together. That is the best thing you can do for yourself. Promise.
 

CornbreadFed

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I already know this relationship is probably over because you are throwing around terms like "honeymoon phase." You are young, and you do not know what the fvck you are doing yet, but we have all been there, my friend.

In the future, I would eliminate terms like "honeymoon phase" from your vocabulary. It creates the expectation that the excitement, affection, and effort at the beginning of a relationship are inherently temporary and that some inevitable decline is waiting on the other side. Relationships naturally evolve, but evolution does not have to mean deterioration.
 

The Duke

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I'm aware of the game and I know most of you dudes are allergic to the idea of settling down and think you've "lost" or whatever. Not really looking for those comments. I've played the game, got a taste, learned about what I truly like and fell for someone that I could truly see myself long term. I never caught "oneitis". I'm always aware nothing is certain, nor do I get upset this considering we are technically over. I know there's more fish in the sea.

The advice i'm looking for is really just trying to understand her mindset, either in case we do end up working out sometime or with a future partner to not fall down this hole again.

We dated for two years, knew each other for 2 years before that. Was very on and off because she would give mixed signals and I would sleep with girls and she would find out and stop talking and them come back. Eventually I just got tired of this whole back and forth, and trying to act nonchalant, because at the end of the day the whole goal for me atleast is to find someone that compliments me, potentially as a life partner. I locked in, pulled instead of pushed, and eventually we started dating.

The relationship was good for the majority. Our "honeymoon phase" probably lasted about a year. Definitely a great moment. Eventually of course, and I know this is where I ****ed up initially, but I got complacent. Only really did things on the special occasions. Didn't really compliment as much as I should, or suprise her with much. She would nag here and there but it was over bull****. Some of this bull**** included how as a man we're supposed to do everything, and how she wants to be a SAHM, and I would fight back telling her that shes a grown woman and can go do things like fill up the car when I can't and i'm working (she said it was a mans job). Eventually she started going out more, and right before I got back from a trip she starts talking about how unfulfilled she is in the relationship but that she loves me and she doesn't mean to hurt me. I get back, we go on a drive to talk, and she turns into this loveable submissive girl, made me almost forget the purpose of the talk. I broke up with her only because I felt she forced my hand and lost respect and love for me. She cried and said she didn't want that. We took 2 weeks, and then we started talking again, went back to normal, and then another argument ensued, and I completely cut it off, removed her on everything and that was that.

Now I guess what I want to know is why do girls do this? She acts like I'm the only one she wants but when I end it, she only cries, but never really fought back to keep me. She kinda accepted it like I was the one making the decision, rather than getting forced to. Of course I'm not the most perfect man, but I truly did love her as much as I could. Also I know almost all of you will say don't get back to her, and I do understand, but I really did want this one to work out. For anyone that has gone through and made it work, how did you make sure she was properly changed? How do you properly reestablish frame and make sure it lasts?

I don't need answers from guys who are 50 and haven't settled down, because they think they need to play the game more and get more 20 year old *****. I find that sad. If there's any mature guys with real answer I would appreciate hearing it.
I'd say you might have played the game, but it hasn't been enough. You played the game enough to be aware after the fact, but not enough to realize and understand what was happening when the cracks first started forming.

Relationships that are on/off never work out in the long run. There simply isn't enough attraction and appreciation for each other. This was your first mistake.

Sure all women like to be stimulated emotionally. It happens when they see other women interested in you. It happens when you don't give them enough attention and then do. The whole push/pull thing keeps them in a constant state of emotional flux. But the women this works best on are never the best for long term success. This was your second mistake.

Women always want you to do the dirty work. So when she finally decides she wants to end it, she will start doing things to make the relationship difficult and trigger you in hopes that you will be the one that ends it so she doesn't have to. Plausible Deniability..... It's always the mans fault.

And your 3rd mistake is thinking it would be a good idea to get back together. Your male leadership skills aren't strong enough for a girl like this.

The good thing is you can throw my advice away if you like but at least you have gained more perspective that will benefit you in the next relationship. A few months from now, you will look back on this and understand a few more things as your head clears up and the heart heals.

I'd also recommend stopping the habbit of using your ego as a protection mechanism when you get into situations you don't like.
 

zekko

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Same. My dad used to take my mom's car to get filled up at least once a week. In fact, the day before he died he'd taken mom's car to fill it up. I always thought it was odd, but he said "Your mom hates pumping gas, and this only takes me 15 minutes a week, she does plenty for me."
Sounds like your parents had a good relationship.
 

Sega Genesis

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I think she cared for you, loved you even, but you taught her that she is wasting time waiting for you to develop into a man capable of having a SAHM partner. Once she recognized this, and didn't see progress in you that aligned with her goals she made things uncomfortable enough that you let her go.....but she had already reached the conclusion that you were not the type of man to meet her expectations, so she is moving on.....she was checked out of the relationship for a while before you broke up.
@steeringclear if you're still with us, I agree with BE here^^.

It's not that complicated when you think about it. You were on two completely different wavelengths re your expectations - her wanting to be a SAHM and her believing it's the man's job to work and do all the manual labor (like loading up the car etc).

She may have thought your response "you're a grown women capable of [fill in the blank]" was a bit too heavy handed for HER and things started going downhill from there.

She began going out more and sorry to say she may have even met another man whom she thought suited her better and her traditional mindset.

She tried to keep it together for awhile cause I do believe she loved you and was emotionally attached but it soon became apparent your needs and expectations were never going to match sooo.....

Like others have said, instead of being direct and ending things, she created a scenario that would leave YOU no choice but to end it.

I'm sorry. Breakups suck I am going through one myself although I was direct and ended it versus creating a scenario so HE would.

Either way, it hurts and sucks but you're only 24. Life goes on and there is much to be learned from this if you're open to that.
 
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steeringclear

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I see I have been paged. Here is advice from the old lady:

First: You are 24 years old. You are quite young and have the bulk of your life ahead of you. Most 24 year olds are still maturing in the mental/emotional (limbic system) of the mind. So don't beat yourself up. In all liklihood your life goals are still forming. So its a wandering journey until you decide/determine the path you are on.

That meandering while you sort yourself out can feel very unstable in relationship.

Second: She seemed to know exactly what she wants. She wants to be a wife and mother. She also seems conflict averse. Meaning she (like most women) is not going to conversate with you in a direct, to the point way. She had a well defined notion of what she wants her life to be. You did not/do not.

I think she cared for you, loved you even, but you taught her that she is wasting time waiting for you to develop into a man capable of having a SAHM partner. Once she recognized this, and didn't see progress in you that aligned with her goals she made things uncomfortable enough that you let her go.....but she had already reached the conclusion that you were not the type of man to meet her expectations, so she is moving on.....she was checked out of the relationship for a while before you broke up.

She wanted you to "be the man". She wanted you to break up. That way you get to preserve your ego, she isn't the bad guy, and she is free to move on cleanly, as are you. She recognized that y'all were not on the same page long term.

Do you see that?

Third: Here is the thing that young men need to grasp. Let's say you want the trad-con wife, the trad-con life.....that's great....but it comes with tremendous responsibilities. Having a SAHM raise your children at home is a status symbol among the affluent for a reason - it requires resources. It is very expensive to fully support a spouse and a family. I know. I've done it (my first husband was a full time stay at home father and we had 3 kids, I was the breadwinner)....that is another story because our dynamic was backwards.....but its a big responsibility and you must have ambition, purpose, a life plan and some drive to shoulder that role. It ain't for sissies.

My son is your age. He is good looking, fit, socially adroit and ambitious. He is married to a cute gal, and they have 2 children. He has wanted to be a pilot since he knew what an airplane was. He focused on that goal all his life. And no he didn't do everything perfect. He got his degree in 4 years, was in ROTC and is currently a military officer. He remains focused on his goal of being a pilot, and he also wanted to be a father, have a wife and raise kids. He is doing those things, following his life plan, following his purpose....

But he made a road map for his life. He knows what he wants and where he is going. He WILL get there. A man with that kind of purpose and plan is what trad-con young women want to get on board with. He also blew off playing around with various women. He had two girlfriends, the second one since high school. They talked about getting married for 4 years before they actually married. The timeline was 1. Get education completed. 2. Commission. 3. Get married. 4. Start family. All the while my son has been pursuing his pilot's license (he will have his check ride soon). His wife fully supported his life plan, embraced fitting into his vision, and trusted his ability to accomplish what he set out to do.

Around here we talk alot about self improvement and purpose. Become your best self and get your life purpose on track. Do that and the woman thing will sort itself out. This girl is gone I think. She is already prepared to get life going with someone who has already prepared himself to handle a trad-con lifestyle. Right now that is not you. I know some of this is tough to hear. You are too far behind in that regard to suddenly level up in this area. By all means prove me wrong....no one will be happier for you than me....

That is what I see here based on what you have shared. I wish you well, but get your act together. That is the best thing you can do for yourself. Promise.
This was probably the best advice I've heard so far, really, thank you for that.
 

steeringclear

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@steeringclear if you're still with us, I agree with BE here^^.

It's not that complicated when you think about it. You were on two completely different wavelengths re your expectations - her wanting to be a SAHM and her believing it's the man's job to work and do all the manual labor (like loading up the car etc).

She may have thought your response "you're a grown women capable of [fill in the blank]" was a bit too heavy handed for HER and things started going downhill from there.

She began going out more and sorry to say she may have even met another man whom she thought suited her better and her traditional mindset.

She tried to keep it together for awhile cause I do believe she loved you and was emotionally attached but it soon became apparent your needs and expectations were never going to match sooo.....

Like others have said, instead of being direct and ending things, she created a scenario that would leave YOU no choice but to end it.

I'm sorry. Breakups suck I am going through one myself although I was direct and ended it versus creating a scenario so HE would.

Either way, it hurts and sucks but you're only 24. Life goes on and there is much to be learned from this if you're open to that.
What really confuses me is just that how we've talked about love and we both agreed at the beggining to not break up over disagreements because they can ultimately be fixed. She comes from a broken family of everyone's either divorced or in a bad relationship on both sides of her family, whereas I come from a family where everyone on both of my sides are together. She has confessed how embarassing she finds how her family members couldn't stick out anything. She has told me she does not want to be anything like them.

We had a great relationship, no cheating, all love, she told me my issues and I agreed on working on them. I told her her issues and she agreed on working it out also. Our timelines were a bit off and some other disagreement but those things did not seem that big in the grand scheme of things. Like I wanted kids by 30 and agreed to meet in the middle at like 28 whereas she wanted it at 26. It's like she just couldn't do it no longer. She would also disrespect and do things I wasn't okay with. For example she went behind a booth with her girlfriends at a club and I told her shewasn't allowed and she didn't seem to understand why I don't like that and her mom agreed with her as well, which gave more confidence in her decision.

As a girl, what is she thinking? She wanted to be married by next year and kids in the next 2. I can't imagine (based on what I know of her) that she can move on that quick and achieve those goals. So her best decision was to push me away?
 

BackInTheGame78

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What really confuses me is just that how we've talked about love and we both agreed at the beggining to not break up over disagreements because they can ultimately be fixed. She comes from a broken family of everyone's either divorced or in a bad relationship on both sides of her family, whereas I come from a family where everyone on both of my sides are together. She has confessed how embarassing she finds how her family members couldn't stick out anything. She has told me she does not want to be anything like them.

We had a great relationship, no cheating, all love, she told me my issues and I agreed on working on them. I told her her issues and she agreed on working it out also. Our timelines were a bit off and some other disagreement but those things did not seem that big in the grand scheme of things. Like I wanted kids by 30 and agreed to meet in the middle at like 28 whereas she wanted it at 26. It's like she just couldn't do it no longer. She would also disrespect and do things I wasn't okay with. For example she went behind a booth with her girlfriends at a club and I told her shewasn't allowed and she didn't seem to understand why I don't like that and her mom agreed with her as well, which gave more confidence in her decision.

As a girl, what is she thinking? She wanted to be married by next year and kids in the next 2. I can't imagine (based on what I know of her) that she can move on that quick and achieve those goals. So her best decision was to push me away?
Believing words and not actions is your biggest problem.
 

Doctor Europeo

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As a girl, what is she thinking? She wanted to be married by next year and kids in the next 2. I can't imagine (based on what I know of her) that she can move on that quick and achieve those goals. So her best decision was to push me away?
Uff, it could be a number of things:

A)She isnt thinking logically
B) She decided she is better off cutting her loses
C) There is already another man in the picture
D) A combination of the above.

Doesnt matter. She is in the past now.

She would also disrespect and do things I wasn't okay with. For example she went behind a booth with her girlfriends at a club and I told her she wasn't allowed and she didn't seem to understand why I don't like that and her mom agreed with her as well, which gave more confidence in her decision.
Maybe something is getting lost in translation for me: Was the issue that she was out of your sight while in the club? Regardless: Its a good thing that you have boundaries, but many men get boundaries wrong. BITG recently created a great thread about it:

 

steeringclear

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Maybe something is getting lost in translation for me: Was the issue that she was out of your sight while in the club? Regardless: Its a good thing that you have boundaries, but many men get boundaries wrong. BITG recently created a great thread about it:

[/QUOTE]

Thanks that was a good thread on boundaries. The issue was primarily that she chose to enter random mens booth in attempts to get free drinks which she argued was innocent and that she's just getting free drinks, but it's disrespectful to me.
 

BackInTheGame78

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Maybe something is getting lost in translation for me: Was the issue that she was out of your sight while in the club? Regardless: Its a good thing that you have boundaries, but many men get boundaries wrong. BITG recently created a great thread about it:

Thanks that was a good thread on boundaries. The issue was primarily that she chose to enter random mens booth in attempts to get free drinks which she argued was innocent and that she's just getting free drinks, but it's disrespectful to me.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, which shows she has no respect for you or the relationship because I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first time it happened and you showed her that was OK by continuously taking her back.

You told her treating you like that was OK by YOUR actions.
 

Sega Genesis

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Believing words and not actions is your biggest problem.
I was just gonna say this^^.

She comes from a broken family of everyone's either divorced or in a bad relationship...
^^So am I and I am going to be very honest here and say such women may not be the best candidates for long term relationships or marriage. And yes I include myself.

Not all. I think @BeExcellent might be (not 100% sure) but is extremely strong and emotionally balanced so it may not have affected her as severely. This is pure speculation tho.

Anyway back to your girl (ex girl :()

She may scream to bloody hell she wants all that, marriage, kids, stability but the reality is she has no frame of reference to base it on.

She in all likelihood witnessed her parents toxicity together, perhaps even cheating.

These were the role models she was raised by so is it any wonder that her actions and how she interacts with you are going to be confusing and haphazard?

This is not something she is consciously aware of, not yet. After a number of failed relationships she may begin to realize something isn't quite right and seek help and/or change her expectations. Which is what I am doing now, in my 30s.

I am of course projecting because like her I am also from a broken home, my dad cheated with several women, I was extremely perceptive and picked up on it, and it had a profound effect on how I view relationships and interact within them.

And like her I had a fair amount of expectations but ultimately ran away or pushed men away whether such expectations were met or not.

I could be wrong, I am not her and wasn't witness to your dynamic but one thing I did pick up on was you telling her she wasn't "allowed" to go behind a booth with one of her friends.

I don't even know what that means (going behind a booth?) but telling your girlfriend she isn't "allowed" to do something is probably not the best way to handle the situation imo.

Having strong boundaries are good and necessary but framing it that she isn't "allowed" comes off quite heavy-handed which as I mentioned earlier may be something she didn't wish to deal with on a long term basis. .

Just my take and things to consider as you move forward.

Again sorry man.
 
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Clockwerk50

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What really confuses me is just that how we've talked about love and we both agreed at the beggining to not break up over disagreements because they can ultimately be fixed. She comes from a broken family of everyone's either divorced or in a bad relationship on both sides of her family, whereas I come from a family where everyone on both of my sides are together. She has confessed how embarassing she finds how her family members couldn't stick out anything. She has told me she does not want to be anything like them.

We had a great relationship, no cheating, all love, she told me my issues and I agreed on working on them. I told her her issues and she agreed on working it out also. Our timelines were a bit off and some other disagreement but those things did not seem that big in the grand scheme of things. Like I wanted kids by 30 and agreed to meet in the middle at like 28 whereas she wanted it at 26. It's like she just couldn't do it no longer. She would also disrespect and do things I wasn't okay with. For example she went behind a booth with her girlfriends at a club and I told her shewasn't allowed and she didn't seem to understand why I don't like that and her mom agreed with her as well, which gave more confidence in her decision.

As a girl, what is she thinking? She wanted to be married by next year and kids in the next 2. I can't imagine (based on what I know of her) that she can move on that quick and achieve those goals. So her best decision was to push me away?
A couple of concepts here that you are missing:

1. Present Emotional State: The core mistake men make is assuming that when a woman expresses an emotion or desire, it represents a permanent state of mind. It doesn’t. Feminine psychology is tied to the emotional chemistry of the present moment. When she says, “I love you,” she means “I love you right now.” When she says, “I will never forgive you,” she means “I am furious with you right now.” When she says, “I want to settle down,” she means “I am tired of the dating market right now.” By forcing yourself to imagine “right now” at the end of every sentence, you protect yourself from building long-term expectations on top of a short-term emotional state. In your case, she may have genuinely meant everything she told you at the time; however, the mistake here is assuming those feelings are permanent.

2. She is not yours, it is your turn: You can have a great relationship, love each other, and make plans for the future, but you can never permanently possess another person’s commitment. Her wanting marriage and kids doesn’t guarantee she’ll stay with you just because you’re the most efficient way to achieve those goals. The relationship was real for as long as both of you chose it, but her choosing you yesterday doesn’t obligate her to choose you tomorrow.

So to answer both questions: “How could she want marriage and kids with you and then walk away?” And “Was pushing you away her ‘best decision’?” She could have genuinely wanted all of those things with you at the time and still later changed her mind. Whether leaving was the right decision is something only time will tell. Neither of you can know for certain what she will want in the future, which is the uncertainty you have to accept.

This may be depressing and unsettling, but I think the bigger lesson here is that there is still more to learn about how women think and how much uncertainty comes with relationships. Even if you’ve had plenty of experience with women, experience alone doesn’t necessarily mean you understand what is happening beneath the surface.
 

BeExcellent

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OP the most important thing to screen for in a woman is character. Character is independent of looks, and the more beautiful a woman is, the rarer character becomes. The reason for that is the fact that beautiful women have more opportunity thrown at them than you can possibly imagine. There is so much temptation because every man wants a beautiful young woman. It becomes harder to exhibit character when it is so easy to use men and behave in a transactional way to get what you want without regard for the other human being in the interaction.

Beautiful women who have character get scooped up and locked down by men who can obtain them, so as time passes (as women age) fewer exist in the dating landscape.

Character in a woman is what combats emotional reactivity and loyalty (the two things @Clockwerk50 bolded in his response), although I am
using different verbiage, the concepts are the same.

Women with no character are aptly described in the song "Loyal" by Chris Brown, and you are never going to turn a Ho into a housewife.....be advised.

Food for thought.

But. Girls who do have character know what they have to offer and know what they are looking for. They can be tough to manage for a man without solid leadership skills as a number of the guys have mentioned. So they require a different, more evolved skillset than less refined women.

So you are looking for character. If your exgf had character she would not behave trying to get into VIP areas for free drinks at a club while she's with you. She wouldn't act that way if she was yours but not with you right then either. She wouldn't have tolerated off/on, and her mother wouldn't be egging on attention seeking behavior.

If nobody in her close circle (family/lifelong family friends) has modeled a successful relationship, who will she emulate? The dysfunction that is familiar to her. The broken ness. People gravitate to what they know, and it takes great effort to overcome that kind of relationship template inertia. You have better models in your family. Pay attention to them.

I cannot however wholly discount those from broken home backgrounds. My parents were divorced when I was 16, but they were both classy about it & ended up amicable after the initial emotional pain subsided. My first husband and I also divorced amicably, and we were very forthright with our kids about why it happened and what could have been done differently. And that was an ongoing open conversation over the years.

My parents were the only divorced couple in my whole family. So I did have solid examples outside my parents, and I had many friends from solid intact families.

Sometimes you do learn what you don't want to become by living through it. But that requires a great deal of self awareness and maturity, and character, and that character has to be rooted in a value system from somewhere that is deeply internalized.

Pull up the old thread How to Spot a Unicorn in the search function. There's some silliness in the thread, but you might find it useful about what to look for, and my story is also there, so you can be the judge of my experience & credibility if that interests you at all.

You are getting some great advice from some of the best contributors on the forum in your thread (and I'm not talking about myself). There are married men, divorced men, fathers, men who are very smart, successful in life and successful with women giving you advice here.

You will heal, you will become an improved version of yourself, and you'll gain perspective in time. We are rooting for you.

Cheers.
 

steeringclear

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OP the most important thing to screen for in a woman is character. Character is independent of looks, and the more beautiful a woman is, the rarer character becomes. The reason for that is the fact that beautiful women have more opportunity thrown at them than you can possibly imagine. There is so much temptation because every man wants a beautiful young woman. It becomes harder to exhibit character when it is so easy to use men and behave in a transactional way to get what you want without regard for the other human being in the interaction.

Beautiful women who have character get scooped up and locked down by men who can obtain them, so as time passes (as women age) fewer exist in the dating landscape.

Character in a woman is what combats emotional reactivity and loyalty (the two things @Clockwerk50 bolded in his response), although I am
using different verbiage, the concepts are the same.

Women with no character are aptly described in the song "Loyal" by Chris Brown, and you are never going to turn a Ho into a housewife.....be advised.

Food for thought.

But. Girls who do have character know what they have to offer and know what they are looking for. They can be tough to manage for a man without solid leadership skills as a number of the guys have mentioned. So they require a different, more evolved skillset than less refined women.

So you are looking for character. If your exgf had character she would not behave trying to get into VIP areas for free drinks at a club while she's with you. She wouldn't act that way if she was yours but not with you right then either. She wouldn't have tolerated off/on, and her mother wouldn't be egging on attention seeking behavior.

If nobody in her close circle (family/lifelong family friends) has modeled a successful relationship, who will she emulate? The dysfunction that is familiar to her. The broken ness. People gravitate to what they know, and it takes great effort to overcome that kind of relationship template inertia. You have better models in your family. Pay attention to them.

I cannot however wholly discount those from broken home backgrounds. My parents were divorced when I was 16, but they were both classy about it & ended up amicable after the initial emotional pain subsided. My first husband and I also divorced amicably, and we were very forthright with our kids about why it happened and what could have been done differently. And that was an ongoing open conversation over the years.

My parents were the only divorced couple in my whole family. So I did have solid examples outside my parents, and I had many friends from solid intact families.

Sometimes you do learn what you don't want to become by living through it. But that requires a great deal of self awareness and maturity, and character, and that character has to be rooted in a value system from somewhere that is deeply internalized.

Pull up the old thread How to Spot a Unicorn in the search function. There's some silliness in the thread, but you might find it useful about what to look for, and my story is also there, so you can be the judge of my experience & credibility if that interests you at all.

You are getting some great advice from some of the best contributors on the forum in your thread (and I'm not talking about myself). There are married men, divorced men, fathers, men who are very smart, successful in life and successful with women giving you advice here.

You will heal, you will become an improved version of yourself, and you'll gain perspective in time. We are rooting for you.

Cheers.
Thank you, great advice all around.
 

The Duke

Master Don Juan
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A couple of concepts here that you are missing:

1. Present Emotional State: The core mistake men make is assuming that when a woman expresses an emotion or desire, it represents a permanent state of mind. It doesn’t. Feminine psychology is tied to the emotional chemistry of the present moment. When she says, “I love you,” she means “I love you right now.” When she says, “I will never forgive you,” she means “I am furious with you right now.” When she says, “I want to settle down,” she means “I am tired of the dating market right now.” By forcing yourself to imagine “right now” at the end of every sentence, you protect yourself from building long-term expectations on top of a short-term emotional state. In your case, she may have genuinely meant everything she told you at the time; however, the mistake here is assuming those feelings are permanent.

2. She is not yours, it is your turn: You can have a great relationship, love each other, and make plans for the future, but you can never permanently possess another person’s commitment. Her wanting marriage and kids doesn’t guarantee she’ll stay with you just because you’re the most efficient way to achieve those goals. The relationship was real for as long as both of you chose it, but her choosing you yesterday doesn’t obligate her to choose you tomorrow.

So to answer both questions: “How could she want marriage and kids with you and then walk away?” And “Was pushing you away her ‘best decision’?” She could have genuinely wanted all of those things with you at the time and still later changed her mind. Whether leaving was the right decision is something only time will tell. Neither of you can know for certain what she will want in the future, which is the uncertainty you have to accept.

This may be depressing and unsettling, but I think the bigger lesson here is that there is still more to learn about how women think and how much uncertainty comes with relationships. Even if you’ve had plenty of experience with women, experience alone doesn’t necessarily mean you understand what is happening beneath the surface.
This is exactly why women make poor leaders and should not be making major decisions. They are short sighted and controlled by their emotions.
 
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