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RickTheToad

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So, I've been dating this female for 1.5 years or so. From the beginning, I said no marriage. I've said this multiple times. This past weekend she was saying she thought she'd be okay with it, but all her friends are getting married and she doesn't feel it's right for her to be punished by my previous marriage many moons ago. I said, listen, if this is not okay with you, I understand. There are dudes out there that will marry you, just not me. Perhaps if the laws change, something can be different. I doubt this will happen, but never say never. I also said, I know what is in it for you, but what do I get out of it? She couldn't answer. I said, listen, I do not want you to be upset (she's balling crying BTW), and I'd rather have you in my life. However, if this is going to be an issue, this is still something I cannot deliver. I told you this on the first date, and at least four other times. I even offered a religious marriage, with not State cert. She wants that, but the cert, too. This is not something I can do. So I said, what would you like to do? If you can live with this, great, if not, I understand. The choice is yours. However, I cannot keep on revisiting this every few months. Just ask yourself, what's more important to you, and you will have your answer.

This happened because she facetimed with a friend of hers who she's not seen in a few years. She got engaged this weekend and this is what started it. It would be a shame to lose her, however, I refuse to go for a marriage cert. I am so against the courts and marriage, you have no idea.

Open to feedback. Yes, I am willing to lose her for the stupid certificate. I see no benefit in the cert. to me. She knows I've walked away from other females who said they want marriage and so on. Funny, two out of three of them had children out of wedlock and ARE NOT MARRIED. So, there it is.
 

Black Widow Void

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I doubt that you'll get many comments, because it sounds to me like you were straight forward with your gal and you are maintaining your sense of self.

Hope it works out, but if not, you'll be able to walk away with your self-worth and pride.
 

Focal core

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Feel it rick.. If religous married are not good enogh, maybe it isnt at least for her.

Afterall the core of every marriage is an emotional commitment itself.. Not a paper ones.

You save yourself if registered marriage wasnt on your consent..

Rock on :up:
 

flowtheory

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It’s really odd. If it was about the love aspect, exchanging vows would be enough. But marriage isn’t just about love. It’s about an idea which people strive for their whole lives.

Why does she feel she needs the certificate?

Since the start and throughout, you two have had different values in the realm of what relationship means and looks like long-term.

You’re probably not the right one for her because the aforementioned misaligned values. Her satisfaction lies on the fact of marriage and it’s representation. She’s just been putting that idea in her mind on the back burner, in hopes you will change.

How I see it? You two will probably struggle with this to an eventual collapse.
 

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Serenity

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To her marriage is status and a sense of belonging with her friends. She wants to marry for a wrong reason. The satisfaction and fulfillment of a good relationship is way more important than the status of being married. If she is willing to forsake you in the pursuit of that status then you know what she finds more important, it's not you.

If marriage is ever on the table, never marry unless you're absolutely certain she would have stayed even if you never married her.
 

RickTheToad

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I doubt that you'll get many comments, because it sounds to me like you were straight forward with your gal and you are maintaining your sense of self.

Hope it works out, but if not, you'll be able to walk away with your self-worth and pride.
Just being honest from the start and re-affirming what I said.

Objective view is if she walks just because she cant get the state cert then its not about you, its about what she stands to gain by getting the cert.
It would be ashame.

It’s really odd. If it was about the love aspect, exchanging vows would be enough. But marriage isn’t just about love. It’s about an idea which people strive for their whole lives.

Why does she feel she needs the certificate?

Since the start and throughout, you two have had different values in the realm of what relationship means and looks like long-term.

You’re probably not the right one for her because the aforementioned misaligned values. Her satisfaction lies on the fact of marriage and it’s representation. She’s just been putting that idea in her mind on the back burner, in hopes you will change.

How I see it? You two will probably struggle with this to an eventual collapse.
Certainly possible. However, it's not like this was an unknown variable. I've restated this multiple times. Funny how some people rather have a piece of paper than the chance to build a successful family and relationship. TBH, none of the members in either of our families have had successful marriages. While neither of our parents' divorced, we'd both agree that both partners stayed in the marriage until the end; but were content, not happily married. So, IDK. She wants to move in, I said we need to get through this issue first.
 

RickTheToad

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To her marriage is status and a sense of belonging with her friends. She wants to marry for a wrong reason. The satisfaction and fulfillment of a good relationship is way more important than the status of being married. If she is willing to forsake you in the pursuit of that status then you know what she finds more important, it's not you.

If marriage is ever on the table, never marry unless you're absolutely certain she would have stayed even if you never married her.
No one ever knows if they'd stay in the end. People should want to stay together because they want to be together willingly, not because because of a license. While I understand her platform, I do not understand her reasoning. I can even see she's fighting herself on this too in her head. I honestly thought she'd say this isn't going to work, so I even said to her, if this isn't for you, no problem, we can go our separate ways; she backed off from it. I would be lying if I didn't say I was a bit choked up by this conversation out of no where. When it dawned on m while she was hysterically crying that this may be the end. I will not say it didn't hurt, but thinks worth doing are never easy. I do hope she will be okay with it, however, I am sticking to my original stance. She did say why did you want to date me if you never had any intention in marrying me? I said, again, from the beginning, I am looking for a family, but I will not deal with attorneys, courts or licenses. How much clearer can I be? Six months later, again, I am not willing to get married, however, I would be willing to have a religious ceremony.

So, IDK. It's an issue that I think can go either way. Since then, she's seems to be back to normal. Females are great actors BTW. So, who knows if it was a hailmary from her end to see if I'll break.
 

Serenity

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While I understand her platform, I do not understand her reasoning.
She told you, it's because her friends are marrying, it's status. Marriage is looked up to in todays society. It's a bad reason to marry, but it happens every day among people who fail to contemplate it. I think she has a hard time understanding her own reasoning because I don't think it's based on reason. It's an emotional drive, she wants to belong. She's unaware that the true reason for her desire to marry is social status so she comes up empty if you ask her why.

Next time this is the topic of discussion, ask her whether the status of being married matters more to her than having a satisfying relationship with you.
 

RickTheToad

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She told you, it's because her friends are marrying, it's status. Marriage is looked up to in todays society. It's a bad reason to marry, but it happens every day among people who fail to contemplate it. I think she has a hard time understanding her own reasoning because I don't think it's based on reason. It's an emotional drive, she wants to belong. She's unaware that the true reason for her desire to marry is social status so she comes up empty if you ask her why.

Next time this is the topic of discussion, ask her whether the status of being married matters more to her than having a satisfying relationship with you.
I did ask that. She said it was the meaning of being in a committed relationship that two people need to work on in order for it to be successful (or something like that). I've gone so far as even considered an engagement ring (my lawyer said it's okay to be engaged), and then she once said she should be able to pick the ring out at any cost (though she wouldn't want anything extravagant) and I should get it for her because she is worth it. I was a bit taken back on that.

For example, I am remodeling my town house bathrooms. It was built nearly 60 years ago, so some things are needing to be replaced due to leaking and sealing issues. While I was thinking of asking her to move in one day, I asked her opinion on some items. Would you believe because I selected new Kohler faucets, shower and toilets she was "concerned". She said well, I have a Toto toilet (never heard of it), and you should splurge and buy that one. It's only a couple hundred more. I was taken back a bit. I was like, what does this Toto toilet do that a Kohler toilet doesn't? It's just a nicer toilet. I said, Kohler will do fine, thank you though for your feedback.

Next day, she was said to me she was thinking, if we have a family, am I (her) going to have to watch what I spend and concern myself that you will be upset if I splurge on things for our kids? She then gave me an example. I took her to a nice restaurant for her 32nd birthday. It set me back like 220 bucks or so, didn't bat an eye. Next day we went to another restaurant and there was something on the menu where it was 60.00 a person, and I though a bit pricey, so I select something al a cart instead. I did offer for her to get it if she preferred, she declined. Nonetheless, we both enjoyed the meal. She said she had to use the bathroom and she actually paid for the meal as well. I didn't ask her and she's done this from time to time before (it drives me nuts when she does it by the way. She does it with her friends too, and it annoys more than just me). Anyway, this was months ago. Would you know, she's still bring this up..

It seems like she's changing a bit. That or maybe the COVID is getting to her. She's been working from home since March and it's driving her up a wall. She literally doesn't leave her home for hours on end for work. From time to time, she then says she's jealous of me as I get to be an essential worker and be around people every day. I said yes, people, viruses, bacteria, feces, urine, throw-up, drugs, overdoses, guns, etc. Yea, it's a walk in the park. She also blamed this past weekend on her period, and she's very emotional because of it.
 

Serenity

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She said it was the meaning of being in a committed relationship that two people need to work on in order for it to be successful (or something like that).
So her logic is that a relationship is a failure without marriage. Yeah, I'd say she has no clue whatsoever about what's truly meaningful for a successful relationship.

Her view on money sounds worrying as well and the entitlement about the ring would turn me off. I wouldn't marry her and I definitely wouldn't put a baby in her if going by the details you've shared.

I've been married a little over a year. I dragged it out for 3 years before proposing and another year before even starting to plan the wedding. She wanted to marry, but she values our relationship and me far more than the idea of being married. I wouldn't have married her otherwise, I probably wouldn't even bother being with her if our relationship wasn't priority #1. In the 5 years we've been together she hasn't given me a single reason to doubt that she's in it for me and the relationship, as it should be. She also doesn't waste a ton of money, she is of course a woman so there are a few things here and there that I consider a bit of a waste, but I could say that about myself too.
 

samspade

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You were true to yourself, honest with her and handled the discussion well. It sucks to lose someone, but the best relationships involve two people with mostly intersecting desires...this is a big one to disagree on and will probably cause more dissonance down the road unless one party accepts the other's views and moves past it.

The Marriage-Industrial Complex is a big consumerist problem. My last gf talked about getting engaged/married constantly, and eventually I began to feel more like an accessory than her boyfriend. I was never going to marry her anyway.

The line about being "punished by your previous marriage," yeah I've heard that one, too. If you've been married once, they will always see you as someone who said "yes" to one woman. Never mind that it didn't last, lol.
 

RickTheToad

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So her logic is that a relationship is a failure without marriage. Yeah, I'd say she has no clue whatsoever about what's truly meaningful for a successful relationship.

Her view on money sounds worrying as well and the entitlement about the ring would turn me off. I wouldn't marry her and I definitely wouldn't put a baby in her if going by the details you've shared.

I've been married a little over a year. I dragged it out for 3 years before proposing and another year before even starting to plan the wedding. She wanted to marry, but she values our relationship and me far more than the idea of being married. I wouldn't have married her otherwise, I probably wouldn't even bother being with her if our relationship wasn't priority #1. In the 5 years we've been together she hasn't given me a single reason to doubt that she's in it for me and the relationship, as it should be. She also doesn't waste a ton of money, she is of course a woman so there are a few things here and there that I consider a bit of a waste, but I could say that about myself too.
To be fair to her, she's not materialistic and has a big heart. She did use the ring as an example and stressed it was just an example and wouldn't want an expensive ring. She really doesn't know what they cost. She told me, one time, that she wanted a 3 carat ring. I told her, do you know what a 3 carat ring costs? She said no, 5k? I said, times that 4 or more and she was taken back and corrected herself. She also buys things for my home, such as groceries, food, and other items; even when I do not ask for it. I am just adding this in incase I described her as a materialistic person. She doesn't seem to be, but yea, the ring and restaurant issue surprised me as well. And she's putting pressure on moving in. I said, I wouldn't even consider thinking about that until the two year mark and she started crying again. So, I am not sure if it was her hormones or she was having a bad day, but it was an experience.
 

Serenity

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@RickTheToad I see. Could be hormones or it could be she's impatient for some reason. I don't know, you can probably read her better than I can from your descriptions. As long as you stick to your boundaries it's all under control anyways.
 

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RickTheToad

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You were true to yourself, honest with her and handled the discussion well. It sucks to lose someone, but the best relationships involve two people with mostly intersecting desires...this is a big one to disagree on and will probably cause more dissonance down the road unless one party accepts the other's views and moves past it.

The Marriage-Industrial Complex is a big consumerist problem. My last gf talked about getting engaged/married constantly, and eventually I began to feel more like an accessory than her boyfriend. I was never going to marry her anyway.

The line about being "punished by your previous marriage," yeah I've heard that one, too. If you've been married once, they will always see you as someone who said "yes" to one woman. Never mind that it didn't last, lol.
Yea, I hear you. This all came out of no where, at least to me. I even asked her, so, you just want a ring, the relationship and family are second? She said no, but why should I be punished for your previous experience? I am not like that, that is not me. Why do I have to suffer from her acts? I just said, I was never crazy about marriage or having someone else tell me what I can do with my assets and my salary. That cert. does that, and I have little recourse to protect myself. I said to her, you could be Taylor Swift and I'd still not marry.

So, I do not know. It's concerning as I've not met another female like her in many years. It wasn't even tears, it was like she was having a meltdown/panic attack. This is not me promising one thing in the beginning and then changing my mind. This was stated from the beginning my staunch disagreement with how marriage and the courts are run today, and she was fine with it. Now, not so much because this is her third friend that has gotten engaged. You should seen both of these two on Facetime while I was eating breakfast on a piece of worthless carbon and some gold. It was absolutely ridiculous. I will say, she was very careful of her words and actions during this. She knows, and already experienced other females trying to get me back once I walked away. Two of them called me and she saw the visual voicemail after we first started dating. I am sure this will come up again. I guess we will have to sit down and either iron it out and be fine with it or walk our separate ways.

It's funny she did say something else. I've been waiting 33 years for the man of my dreams, which I now have, but he won't marry me. I thought I was fine with it, but now I do not know. I responded, you were given this information on the 1st date and a few times after that. I even said I'd agree to other things, just not this. If it was a deal breaker then, you should had said something or broke it off then; or you can still do so now. I cannot change my position on the legal marriage certificate with the State of CT. I will understand if you want to leave, it's okay, no harm no foul. She then said, I love you way too much to leave and I do not know what to do. Listen, think about it and let me know.

Then she was fine again, so I am not sure. Her next period should be an interesting one too. She blamed it on her period. First time for this one.
 

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You have done it right. You made it known from day one that you did not want to marry. Obviously your choice.

I will say that I've been married and divorced. And call me blue pilled or whatever, but I wouldn't let a great woman go bc of this. I d get a very good prenup. The most important decision you choose is not who you marry or if you marry, but if and who you decide to have kids with.

Just my take.
 

RickTheToad

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You have done it right. You made it known from day one that you did not want to marry. Obviously your choice.

I will say that I've been married and divorced. And call me blue pilled or whatever, but I wouldn't let a great woman go bc of this. I d get a very good prenup. The most important decision you choose is not who you marry or if you marry, but if and who you decide to have kids with.

Just my take.
Wish it was that easy. In the State of CT, I would now have to have my "wife" sign all my business loans along with me. A marriage is a union where two people become essentially one. If she refuses to sign, I cannot get a business loan from a bank. I've spent the better part of nearly 15 years building a little side business of rental properties around Fairfield County, CT. Essentially, she would now also have ownership in them for doing nothing. Additionally, should something happen, it will cost north of 25k for an uncontested divorce. I know as I did it about 11 years ago. A pre-nup is garbage and isn't worth the paper it's written on these days due to case law. All a spouse can say is they promised it would be ripped up and that would be considered a valid oral argument. The law is very complicated these days. She also didn't like the fact that once married she'd also be responsible for the mort. debt should I fail to pay. She then asked, can't you just stick with being a PA at the hospital? Why do you need to do the real estate rehabs and rentals? It was just a quirky experience.
 

Stoic

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Wish it was that easy. In the State of CT, I would now have to have my "wife" sign all my business loans along with me. A marriage is a union where two people become essentially one. If she refuses to sign, I cannot get a business loan from a bank. I've spent the better part of nearly 15 years building a little side business of rental properties around Fairfield County, CT. Essentially, she would now also have ownership in them for doing nothing. Additionally, should something happen, it will cost north of 25k for an uncontested divorce. I know as I did it about 11 years ago. A pre-nup is garbage and isn't worth the paper it's written on these days due to case law. All a spouse can say is they promised it would be ripped up and that would be considered a valid oral argument. The law is very complicated these days. She also didn't like the fact that once married she'd also be responsible for the mort. debt should I fail to pay. She then asked, can't you just stick with being a PA at the hospital? Why do you need to do the real estate rehabs and rentals? It was just a quirky experience.

Fair enough.

If you are correct that prenups are ineffective, that would be a concern for me too.

I have significant assets as well but think or did think a solid prenup would at least allow me to keep what assets I entered a marriage with. My suspicion is that a solid prenup by a reputable attorney more than likely will protect our assets.
 

Stoic

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Wish it was that easy. In the State of CT, I would now have to have my "wife" sign all my business loans along with me. A marriage is a union where two people become essentially one. If she refuses to sign, I cannot get a business loan from a bank. I've spent the better part of nearly 15 years building a little side business of rental properties around Fairfield County, CT. Essentially, she would now also have ownership in them for doing nothing. Additionally, should something happen, it will cost north of 25k for an uncontested divorce. I know as I did it about 11 years ago. A pre-nup is garbage and isn't worth the paper it's written on these days due to case law. All a spouse can say is they promised it would be ripped up and that would be considered a valid oral argument. The law is very complicated these days. She also didn't like the fact that once married she'd also be responsible for the mort. debt should I fail to pay. She then asked, can't you just stick with being a PA at the hospital? Why do you need to do the real estate rehabs and rentals? It was just a quirky experience.
Our experiences have been different and same with our views.

My divorce costs less than 1k through mediation, no attorneys involved even though we had a net worth of north of 1M
 
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