Front vs. Back Squat

[Fuglydude]

Hey all,

I've recently started doing a higher proportion of front squats in my routine, and the results are encouraging. My core feels a lot tighter and although I can't lift as much for fronts as I can for backs I feel they're an overall safer movement for avoiding lower back issues that can come from really straining on the last few reps.

I'm starting to think about almost completely eliminating back squat from my program and just doing fronts because they fry my abs, and keep my lower back fresher. I love heavy deadlifting so I like to keep my lower back fresh.

How do people on here combine fronts and back squat in their routine? Are similar set rep/ranges used? I love 3 x 3's with front squats...then I move onto work sets.

 

[Quagmire911]

I am just about to do this myself. Definitely a lot better on my lower back.

The problem I was having was that I was losing my arch in the ass to grass position, which is more than likely a flexibility issue. And no one should be doing ass to grass squats if they can't keep their arch.

The 3x3 sounds good. I am going to be doing something similar.

As far as weight is concerned, I read from a reputable source that your front squat weights should be around 85% of your back squat weights.

As far as I can see there isn't really much disadvantage in doing a front squat. The reduced weight is because of different biomechanics during the lift and from what I see front squatting should give good carry over to the back squat.

Obviously if you are training for a powerlifting meet though, back squats should be in your routine.

 

[MrS]

Good thread.
For athletes with less time to devote to strength training, front squat is better because it makes you have slightly better form on the squat and is a bit more sport specific.

 

[JohnnyIrish]

This thread got me digging. Heres some good info I found over at stronglifts front squats vs back squats.

 

[Drum&Bass]

I do front squats when I take a week for power training, but I usually just mix it in every once in awhile with no real thought. I would never eliminate back squats though. I use the same reps for fronts squats as I do with back squats my reps vary from 10, 7, 15 and 20.

I would also do power lifting squats (parallel) as deep squats don't really seem to hit hamstrings and glutes as well.

 

[BMX]

I think I just might give front squats another try. I saw one guy in a mag doing overhead squats going ass to grass literally, they advised to start out w/just the bar on that lift, especially if you lack core strength.

 

[wolf116]

Back squats will build overall mass quicker then front squats as they allow more weight and much more use of your posterior chain (the big muscles).

If you do eliminate back squats (don't) understand that you will need to do more glute and ham work like pullthroughs, good mornings, glute ham raise, reverse hypers etc.

If you are having back problems, get your form fixed up. Everyone tries to find a way to eliminate back squats as they are just so hard (good). Yes front squats are easer then back because of the lack of use from the big muscles.

Having a weaker unbalanced posterior chain is more likely to lead to back problems then doing back squats.

It took me a year to learn squat form and I'm happy with the results.

 

[Drum&Bass]

Back squats will build overall mass

I'm not so sure about that but heavier weights will build bigger legs no doubt.

 

[Flyer]

i still dont get the placement of the bar.

How are u suppose to put it on your shoulders? Do you roll them forward, like a forward shrug???

p.s. I use a clean grip.

 

[Quagmire911]

Back squats will build overall mass quicker then front squats as they allow more weight and much more use of your posterior chain (the big muscles).
I WOULD ACTUALLY LIKE TO SEE SOME KIND OF STUDY ON THIS. THE POSTERIOR CHAIN IS STILL HEAVILY INVOLVED IN THE FRONT SQUAT. I ALSO AM NOT SURE THAT THE WEIGHT IS THE ISSUE. I WOULD AGREE THOUGH BECAUSE THE BACK SQUAT USES THE POSTERIOR CHAIN MORE AND THE FRONT SQUAT USES THE ANTERIOR CHAIN MORE, THAT THE BACK SQUAT WOULD HAVE THE GREATER PROPENSITY TO SEE GAINS.

If you do eliminate back squats (don't) understand that you will need to do more glute and ham work like pullthroughs, good mornings, glute ham raise, reverse hypers etc.

SHOULD BE DOING SOME OF THEM ANYWAY UNLESS YOU ARE JUST STARTING OUT REMEMBER YOU STILL HAVE YOUR DEADS.

If you are having back problems, get your form fixed up. Everyone tries to find a way to eliminate back squats as they are just so hard (good). Yes front squats are easer then back because of the lack of use from the big muscles.

THIS ONE IS BS MY FRIEND. THEY ARE CERTAINLY NOT EASIER. AS YOU HAVE SAID ABOVE THE LIFT UTILIZES DIFFERENT MECHANICS THAN THE BACK SQUAT FORCING YOU TO USE LESS WEIGHT. FROM MY READING THUS FAR I SEE FAIRLY GOOD EVIDENCE THAT THE FRONT SQUAT WILL CARRY OVER WELL TO THE BACK SQUAT. THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN IF THE LIFT WAS EASIER OR IF THE "BIG" MUSCLES WERE "LACKING" IN THE EXERCISE.

It took me a year to learn squat form and I'm happy with the results.

See bold above.

I agree that people should not drop the back squat altogether, however the front squat has its uses and applications in a routine. When I say "altogether" this doesn't mean it can't be dropped for a while. If the back squat is giving you pain the front squat is a viable solution until you are able to fix the problems with the back squat. Some problems can take weeks to months to be sorted out and in the meantime if you up your front squat 30-40lbs I don't think you are going to have any problems when you go back to normal squatting.

Indeed to quote Louie Simmons on the effectiveness the front squat can have:

"Eddie Coppin of Belgium made an 826 deadlift at a bodyweight of 186. The front squat was a major part of his training. "

That is a 4.4x bw deadlift. I am not saying it will be that effective for everyone, but for some it will be a very useful exercise and everyone should give it a go at some time or another. Here is the article:

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/overcoming_plateaus.htm

Mike Robertson is another strength coach that has completely dropped back squatting in favour of the front squat. Here is an article on that:

http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/strong_athlete_zero_injuries&cr=

And for some it may be the only way for them to hit ass to grass. To quote IA:

"If you have a long torso, and short legs, your back will likely round when going deep. Despite what all the internet gurus will say, everyone simply cannot ass to grass squat safely."

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15433

So yes, if you are having problems with the back squat or have stalled for whatever reason, the front squat is a viable alternative as can be seen by the above.

Poliquin's view:

http://www.musclewithattitude.com/readArticle.do?id=1401530

Just some thoughts...

Ps: Quote Warboss Alex:

"If you think your squat is weak, or you're stalling on squats, you can try front or box squats for a while to get your squat moving again."

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=131686&highlight=front+squat

 

[Fuglydude]

Good posts gentlemen...quagmire...awesome articles.

I don't really get any serious lower back issues, but it always feels like my erector spinae are kinda sore. I like fronts because they beat up my abs quite a bit. I think 3 x 3 w/ 245 lbs on fronts is pretty tough for my abs.

Currently I'm sitting around a 2.5-2.6x bodyweight deadlift and close to 2x bodywt for back squat for my 1RM. My next goal is to hit 3x deadlift and 2.5x squat. I think favoring front squats will help to strengthen my core to help me reach my lifting goals.

Like some are suggesting here, I dont' think I'll completely eliminate back squats. What mixture of fronts and backs would you guys recommend?

I'm thinking something along the lines of:

3 x 3 fronts
1 x 15 (breathing fronts)

2 x 6 backs
1 x 15 (breathing backs).

Comments?

 

[Quagmire911]

Which part of the erector spinae?

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/ErectorSpinae.html

If it is sore, it would suggest that you aren't maintaining your arch.

As for doing both:

You could do it the way you lay it out. You could also switch from week to week. You could also just cycle them every 3-4 weeks or longer. A lot of things you could do. If the back squat is giving you issues though stick with the front squat for a while and work on your back squat form. You said it yourself that it keeps your lower back fresher, so if it doesn't cause really bad problems consider cycling them in some way.

I wouldn't do front squats over 6 reps though, for the reasons Poliquin outlines in the above article.

 

[wolf116]

Quag, Warboss Alex has never been in support of substituting the the back squat long term, it is the bread and butter.

As for iron addict. he hardly ever uses the front squat in his routines and never dose them himself.

As Poliquin said the front squat is more sport specific, not as great for bodybuilding as Fugly is into. I uses smaller muscles. Pluss you should only do a maximum of 6 reps which makes it hard to mix up. I tried to do 20 rep front squat once and almost died.

As for my bull sh!t, you don't know what you are talking about. The front squat dose have carry over, but teaches bad muscle recruitment. When I went back to back squats I found it very hard to activate my glutes again in the squat despite all the extra glute work i was doing.

Front squat = smaller muscles dominate = easier.

 

[simon]

As for iron addict. he hardly ever uses the front squat in his routines and never dose them himself.

Quote from IA:

"Well I can't do front squats

They make my knees SCREAM and even if my knees want to play I can use enough weight that they absolutely KILL my shoulders--no thanks.

They are a great lift though and one I include often when writting routines.

IA"

Reason for not putting front squats in most of the routines that we (as non-customers) can view:

"Because it is written for the masses, not an individual trainee. LOTS of people cannot or will not do front squats."

 

[stronglifts]

Great thread. Thanks for the backlink.

Mike Robertson, Eric Cressey, Mike Boyle, and many more coaches don't have their athletes do any type of back squats. Only front squats, anderson squats, box squats.

IA is right. Olympic back squats: you're lower back can round at the bottom. Some people just will keep rounding their back.

Low bar back squats you've got the forward lean. A lot of people start goodmorning the weight, this increases risks of lower back injury. Add to that the compressive force which is higher (more maximal load) and the increased torque compared to front squats (torso is more upright vs. back squats).

After I've injured my back 3 years ago, I dropped all back squats from my routine. I've done back squats less than 5 times during the last 2 years. I now Front Squat 125kg at 73kg body-weight. I've done 13 weeks smolov for front squats. Etc. My lower back is injury free.

Quag, Warboss Alex has never been in support of substituting the the back squat long term, it is the bread and butter.

As for iron addict. he hardly ever uses the front squat in his routines and never dose them himself.

As Poliquin said the front squat is more sport specific, not as great for bodybuilding as Fugly is into. I uses smaller muscles. Pluss you should only do a maximum of 6 reps which makes it hard to mix up. I tried to do 20 rep front squat once and almost died.

As for my bull sh!t, you don't know what you are talking about. The front squat dose have carry over, but teaches bad muscle recruitment. When I went back to back squats I found it very hard to activate my glutes again in the squat despite all the extra glute work i was doing.

Front squat = smaller muscles dominate = easier.

Front Squat are harder than back squat because you can't use your back muscles (clean grip, try to squeeze your upper-back). Muscle recruitement on front squats is 50/50 quad/PC. On a low bar back squat it's more like 40/60 quad/pc. In terms of smaller muscles, front squat work your abs more than back squats.

You can do front squats wrong just like you can do back squats wrong. On a front squat, "squatting between your legs" as dan john calls it, will involve your posterior chain more. Squat down by pushing your hips back. you should always do that btw, also on back squats. Big error is to go straight down, and then you get the knee problems and stuff.

 

[wolf116]

Front squats don't even phase me, where's back squats make me want to pass-out. If you want your legs to grow FAST you will want to be doing some 20 rep stuff, good luck doing that front.

Who cares if coaches are dropping back squats for athletes. Great if you are training for ice skating but most guys here (the OP) are training for muscle.

 

[Mad Manic]

Back squats will build overall mass quicker then front squats as they allow more weight and much more use of your posterior chain (the big muscles).

Quads are the biggest muscle group in the body last time I checked, and if it's about weight shifted then why squat at all why not just Leg press instead?

If you do eliminate back squats (don't) understand that you will need to do more glute and ham work like pullthroughs, good mornings, glute ham raise, reverse hypers etc.

I think as long as you're deadlifting and leg curling in some form then that covers that anyway. But you can easily say, "If you're back squatting you should do more quad work."

If you are having back problems, get your form fixed up. Everyone tries to find a way to eliminate back squats as they are just so hard (good). Yes front squats are easer then back because of the lack of use from the big muscles.

Quads are the biggest muscle group and the PC is still used a lot in FS.

Having a weaker unbalanced posterior chain is more likely to lead to back problems then doing back squats.

I don't think that's true at all, there have been way more people who got injured from poor back squat form than those who didn't back squat at all.

MM

 

[insidious]

Interesting. I've avoided front squats because I have a hell of a time resting the BB when doing them. But if it tightens the abdominals and core as much as Fugly says, I can't not give them another shot.

My lower back is strong and has never had any problems (knock on wood) so I've never felt the need to abandon back squats which are my true love. But I think a good mix of both can't hurt.

 

[Quagmire911]

Quag, Warboss Alex has never been in support of substituting the the back squat long term, it is the bread and butter.

As for iron addict. he hardly ever uses the front squat in his routines and never dose them himself.

As Poliquin said the front squat is more sport specific, not as great for bodybuilding as Fugly is into. I uses smaller muscles. Pluss you should only do a maximum of 6 reps which makes it hard to mix up. I tried to do 20 rep front squat once and almost died.

As for my bull sh!t, you don't know what you are talking about. The front squat dose have carry over, but teaches bad muscle recruitment. When I went back to back squats I found it very hard to activate my glutes again in the squat despite all the extra glute work i was doing.

Front squat = smaller muscles dominate = easier.

WOLF:

I don't think you really read my post. You twisted some of the things I said and ignored other points.

To quote myself:

"I agree that people should not drop the back squat altogether, however the front squat has its uses and applications in a routine."

This is also the point Alex and Poliquin put forth.

As far as YOU going back to the back squat and YOU having issues with glute recruitment, that was YOU, not the entire lifting populace.

And as others have said above, the posterior chain is still heavily involved in the front squat. The change in the ratio as Mehdi put it isn't that large. And as said by myself and others, you still have your deadlifts and other posterior chain moves.

As far as the IA issue, I think Simon pretty much settled that. You also completely ignored Mike Robertson, Louie Simmons, and the guy with the 4.4x bw deadlift. Stronglifts has also added to the list of names and included further information.

As for your persistence that the front squat uses smalled muscles and is easier I think what I wrote above coupled with what MM and stronglifts posted, cover that pretty well and prove it false.

I am actually disappointed in what you had to say in relation to my post. Your arguments were weak and not very well thought out.


MM:

I was pretty sure your glutes are the largest and strongest muscle group.


INSIDIOUS:

I always had problems with placing the bar on front squats. That was when I messed around with light weight. The day I seriously looked into doing them and I actually placed the bar correctly, it wasn't a problem. Look on stronglifts for bar placement info.

 

[wolf116]

I train with a lot of top guys, one dose a 400 kg squat and one guy dose a 4x bodyweight deadlift. I was doing a lot of front squats because I hate back squats, they got me off them and sorted out my back squat and I'm very thankful.

And yes MM the gluts are the biggest muscle.

Sorry Quag I don't really have a strong argument for you. We agreed that back squats are the main lift anyway. How can I argue with an agreement? I still do front squats all the time, but they are no substitute for growth. Maybe the are better for sport specific purpose.