"The Kiss of Death Mistake"

You replay the conversation at 2 a.m. She texted back fast yesterday. Today, nothing. Was that smile friendly or flirty? What did the shoulder touch mean?

Every hour you spend decoding her signals drains your confidence and hands her the controls. Women can sense that insecurity from across the room — and it repels them.

One of the "22 Rules" kills the obsession on the spot: assume she likes you, and act accordingly. Sounds too simple. Works anyway.

Her interest tends to rise to meet your expectations. Psychologists call it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Flirting on a 1st date

MikeEdward1973

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Hi folks - after surfing on this forum a bit, I realized that this section of the forum might be a better place to seek feedback, since I'm 34. So I'm repeating some thoughts that I did post a bit earlier in another section of the forum.

In any case, here is my problem. I am getting plenty of first dates with good looking women. Very few 2nd dates. I talked about this with a friend of mine tonight. His point was a good one - I have zero idea of how to flirt. I'm just bad at it. I talk to women like they're friends. Male friends. We talk for hours, and have great conversations, but I think I'm getting moved into the 'friends' category really fast.

So - could some folks here give me advice on flirting on a first date? I really need some new moves.

(just as background, I'm 34, and the women we're talking about are usually between 28 and 31.)

We talk about everything from work and family life (I don't have any kids, and neither do the women I date - I'm referring to parents and siblings) to the places we've lived and what we do for fun.

Not to sound arrogant, but I do have a lot of interesting stuff to talk about, I spent 5 years on Wall Street, and now I work in Silicon Valley. And I spend most of the time asking them about them, not talking about just me. I show a lot of interest in what they do, their life, etc.

And I get a lot of good vibes - almost *always* they do the hair-stroking thing and we make a ton of eye contact.

My follow-up is I call a couple days later, leave a message, and they usually don't call back. And then a couple days after that, I'll shoot them a text message, just saying hi, asking how their week is going. Usually no reply.

My suspicion is that I'm not flirting - I treat it way too much like a job interview. And I am really good at job interviews, so I think my brain is trained to be too much of a gentlemen.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? help?
 
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"How I Made Sure No Woman Ever Friend-Zoned Me Again"

She calls you when her car breaks down. When she needs help moving. When some guy she's actually dating treats her badly.

You're the listener. The reliable one. The guy who would treat her so much better, if she'd just open her eyes.

She won't. You trained her to see you as the low-effort option — the friend who requires zero risk and zero investment. Every favor dug the hole deeper.

The "22 Rules" break the pattern. You'll stop auditioning for a role she already cast and become the man she chases instead. It starts with Rule 1.

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jophil28

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MikeEdward1973 said:
I treat it way too much like a job interview. And I am really good at job interviews, so I think my brain is trained to be too much of a gentlemen.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? help?
OK here is the BIG question - on the dates, who is the "interviewer" and who is in the role of the interviewee.
( think that I already know what your answer will be )
 

MikeEdward1973

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So, I ask a ton of questions, and show a lot of interest. And they ask me questions. And I think that's the way to go. And I usually have a good time, and I think they do to. Sometimes we'll talk for 2+ hours. That's common.

But I also think that my style is, while not overly formal, is also not 'flirty' or 'silly' or...what's the word I'm looking for...'fun' enough.

Know what I mean?
 

MikeEdward1973

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window said:
wait at least 5 days to call them next time, never leave a message and never check in especially if they haven't returned ur call...

always keep em guessing...so she thinks "geez I wonder if that guy liked me or not...."
Whoa - really? Do you guys wait 5 days? I usually call after 2. Like I'll go out on a Friday, and then call on a Monday. Bad move?
 

Phyzzle

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"Why Women Dump the Guys Who Try the Hardest"

You paid for dinner. You drove. You said "whatever you want is fine" every single time. All the effort, no expectations.

And she left anyway — probably for a guy who makes her pick up the pizza.

Painful. Also predictable. Her mind quietly concludes that anything requiring zero effort from her is worth exactly zero. You became a free sample, and free samples get taken for granted.

The 22 Rules flip the dynamic. Small shifts that get her investing effort, money, and time in you — until SHE'S the one afraid of losing YOU.

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MikeEdward1973

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Bible_Belt

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Did I ask you already if you kiss them on the first date? I can't remember. The best door-to-door salesman I ever met either closed the deal or got thrown out of the house. There was no in-between. He who hesitates is not closing deals.

And out of curiosity, how many manly-man, high-testosterone elements do you have in your life? I am guessing the list is short. It's obvious that you're an intelligent, successful guy, but you may not be emitting the kind of dominant vibe that makes women return your calls because they want sex.
 

MikeEdward1973

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Bible_Belt said:
Did I ask you already if you kiss them on the first date? I can't remember. The best door-to-door salesman I ever met either closed the deal or got thrown out of the house. There was no in-between. He who hesitates is not closing deals.

And out of curiosity, how many manly-man, high-testosterone elements do you have in your life? I am guessing the list is short. It's obvious that you're an intelligent, successful guy, but you may not be emitting the kind of dominant vibe that makes women return your calls because they want sex.
Dude, you know what? I am lacking in testosterone-laden stuff. I will give you that. Not to say I don't have testosterone. But it's just that, well, you got it right, I reek of white-collar, overly-intellectual, 'nice guy.' But I think I can change that. I'm optimistic. I do get a lot of at-bats. But not many base hits.

So for kissing, I do it if the opportunity presents itself, and I do try to press that issue. Not in a bad way, but my body-language, etc., after a date does show I'm looking to kiss. Sometimes they dodge it, and sometimes they dig it.
 

Bible_Belt

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Yeah, that's the trap of the intellectual. I suggest risk-taking behavior of some sort. Adrenaline hobbies are good. Obviously, find something that you actually enjoy, but men who engage in risk are attractive to women in some primal genetic or chemical way.

With the kissing, yeah, press the issue. If she will look into your eyes as you touch her hair, then she wants to make out with you, and you are a wuss for not kissing her (this is what I tell myself when it is happening). I have had women lose all control after one kiss, and I have also had some fantastic failures, too , one girl cringed like I was about to molest her, but you are still much better off to have tried and got shot down than to have not tried at all. I feel like if I don't try to kiss any girl I'm with, then the time spent with her was wasted. Salesman close the deal while the buying temperature is hot. They don't expect to show up and close a prospect a few days later. I knew one salesman guy who even had t-shirts printed for his sales crew that said 'No Call-Backs." If you wait until date 2 to kiss her, then her buying temperature has dropped, and you have to put more work into getting her where she already was when you wussed out the first time. Plus, even if you don't have sex immediately, if you have a steamy good-night kiss, she will think about you non-stop and work up her own buying temperature for date 2. And she will be more inclined to return calls.
 

jophil28

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Bible_Belt said:
Yeah, that's the trap of the intellectual. I suggest risk-taking behavior of some sort. Adrenaline hobbies are good. Obviously, find something that you actually enjoy, but men who engage in risk are attractive to women in some primal genetic or chemical way.

With the kissing, yeah, press the issue. If she will look into your eyes as you touch her hair, then she wants to make out with you, and you are a wuss for not kissing her (this is what I tell myself when it is happening). I have had women lose all control after one kiss, and I have also had some fantastic failures, too , one girl cringed like I was about to molest her, but you are still much better off to have tried and got shot down than to have not tried at all. I feel like if I don't try to kiss any girl I'm with, then the time spent with her was wasted. Salesman close the deal while the buying temperature is hot. They don't expect to show up and close a prospect a few days later. I knew one salesman guy who even had t-shirts printed for his sales crew that said 'No Call-Backs." If you wait until date 2 to kiss her, then her buying temperature has dropped, and you have to put more work into getting her where she already was when you wussed out the first time. Plus, even if you don't have sex immediately, if you have a steamy good-night kiss, she will think about you non-stop and work up her own buying temperature for date 2. And she will be more inclined to return calls.
Mike read this a few times - it is right on the money..
 

"She Laughed All Night. Then She Ghosted You. Here's Why."

Dinner ran three hours. She laughed at everything. You walked her to her car thinking this one's locked in.

Then: nothing. Two texts. No reply. What happened?

You did what most men do on a great date. You filled every silence, answered every question, and left her with nothing to wonder about. No mystery. Nothing to sit with when she got home.

Rule 3 of the "22 Rules" changes the ending: tell her a little, hold back the rest, and let her imagination do the chasing. The ghosting stops too.

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