Field Report: Internet HB #1 (blind date).

[ZeeOwl]

Background on me
I'm a 40-year old guy who has just started real dating about 3 months ago. I'm divorced (7 years) with 3 kids, 2 STRs and 1 LTR since then. I consider myself a RAFC for the past 4 years, with the greatest progress in the past 6 months since I found this site. All the relationships I've had started from either a friendship or exclusively dating someone with a LTR as the goal in both our minds. So I have very little prior dating experience. You can teach an old dog new tricks. I've used mainly internet personals to find prospects lately, as it suits my current living situation, and the type of prospects I'm interested in fairly well. I'm also in Week 2 of DJ Boot Camp, so eventually I plan on doing some cold pickups too. Though opportunities are hard to come by in my case (except maybe with younger women). I've gone on about 10 1st dates in the past 2 months, one of which made it to 2nd. This is the first one I'm reporting on as I consider all the previous ones were pretty much uneventful practice runs. I have nothing earth-shattering to tell about this one. I'm doing it for the benefit of the newbies, to give an idea of how internet dating goes, and also to get constructive criticism on what I did.

Background on her (from her profile)
No photo.
30, 1m73 (5'8"), slim, average looks, non-smoker, never married.
Looking for friendship/love.
No kids, undecided about having some.
Catholic.
College education, employee.

Initial contact
August 3rd.
I sent her my then standard RAFC-style with DJ undertones intro eMail, which is mainly just commenting on an interesting phrase of her profile, and asking her to tell me more about herself, particularily her deep down passions, dreams and desires.

August 14th.
She writes back apologizing for the long delay, saying she was away on vacation. She elaborates on my comments about her profile, describes her base personality and ideals. She tells me that her dream is to buy a motorcycle, but she can't afford to yet. And her biggest one is to find a kindred soul to add happiness to her life. She then asks me to talk about myself.

September 3rd (took my time before opening her August 14th eMail, since she had taken so long to get back to me).
Told her I'd been on vacation too (mine had actually been in July). Asked how her's went. Asked her to elaborate on her dream of getting a motorcycle, how it makes her feel... Told her a bit about me, what makes me happy, and that I'd like to share that with someone.

September 7th.
She tells me about her vacation time. That she's only been a passenger on motorcycles until now, and would like to buy her own and drive. She elaborates on how riding one makes her feel. Asks how my vacation went.

September 11th.
I told her I had enjoyable family vacation time. That I was curious about motorcycles as I'd never been on one. Told her I was getting curious as to what she looks like. Asked for photos, since I have one in my profile.

She tells me she doesn't have any recent photos, and hates being photographed.

September 12th (Friday).
I tell her "Your [photo] story is suspicious " That I think she's a bit of a freak for wanting a motorcycle at her age, since most people start that when they're teens. And that since I can't find out what she looks like, to at least give me her #. I say I'll call after the weekend, as I'm going to be very busy.

September 13th (Saturday).
I send her a bulk eMail advertizing a dance for non-smokers in our city.

September 14th (Sunday).
She tells me she's wanted a motorcycle since she was 13. Thanks me for the dance invitation, but that she had prior plans. Asks how it went. Gives me her # and her work schedule.

Taking it to the phone level
September 15th (Monday).
I call her to set up a coffee meeting (I never use the word "date", I'm still qualifying her and she hasn't earned that yet) for Wednesday evening. She has a weird work schedule, which makes meshing with mine difficult. This causes a few awkward pauses during the convo. She mentions that she's trying to get more standard work hours, and is expecting an answer next week. After a bit of mutual fumbling, I set it for 4PM Sunday. I suggest a place downtown, but she prefers another quieter place she knows. I've never been there, so I agree saying I'd enjoy trying something new. I then run DD's anti-flake and LJBF/qualifying sequences on her, and cut off the convo. Total: about 20 minutes.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Date #1

September 21st (Sunday).
I arrive at the coffee-shop/restaurant 2 minutes early. Spot a slightly secluded table near a corner, and take the seat facing the center of the room so I'll have her undivided attention. She arrives 5 minutes later, apologizes for being late saying she got into traffic (it was 4:03PM lol). I greeted her with a big smile, an enthusiastic hug (was aiming for mood mirroring) and a kiss on each cheek (typical Quebec greeting). I teasingly laugh at her apologizing for being 3 minutes late. I wasn't expecting much considering no photo and "average looks" in her profile. I was pleasantly surprised, a 7.5 to 8 (? because she was wearing a loose fitting wool jacket), pretty face (looks about 27), well proportioned slim body with nice curves. We fluff talk for about 5-10 minutes, I do some subtle EC. Then the waiter tells us a band has to set up for that evening, and we have to move. I immediately spot a table with a nice balcony view, ask if we can have that one, and we move to there. Could have gotten a bit of (lower back) kino in there, but didn't think of it at the time. Doh!

We decide what we want to drink and order. I restart the convo asking her to tell me about her motorcycling experiences, how it makes her feel, what she would buy if she could have any one she wanted (eliciting sensual conversation)... My plan was to use Señor Fingers' "Seducing the NiceGirl" approach,
http://sosuave.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37725
as I'd already determined that was her basic type (with a dash of freak, my favorite ) from the eMail and phone convos. I then pulled a joke on her saying that I was going to my car to get my camera and get a photo of her, since I didn't have one. Her face went white and her jaw dropped. lol I told her I was kidding, but that the expression she just had would have made a great photo. She looked a little embarassed, but I don't remember if she blushed. Unfortunately, that's the only joke I thought of doing during the date; I completely forgot to do any C&F.

We got to talking about her work schedule and her job, and that she'd just got the news that she would have a 9AM to 5PM shift starting Monday. I asked her if she'd celebrated the good news (idea from Player Supreme), she said no, but wanted to wait until she actually started before doing that. I noticed she was evasive about her job, so I straight out asked her what she did. She mumbled (barely audibly) that she was a factory worker, and looked away as if she was ashamed. I asked her why she felt like that, and she said a lot of people are prejudiced against female factory workers, seeing them as low-class. I told her I didn't care what she did, as long as it was honest.

I lost control of my game plan from this point, because I was too wrapped up in what she was saying and concentrating on the now to remember to move on to the next step. She would occasionally slide into negative subjects, so I had to pull her back into the positive a few times. When she mentioned her factory-worker status, it would have been a perfect opportunity to segue into Señor Fingers' "PUSH Role Play: Oh, well I was looking for a rich girl", but I'd completely stopped thinking about the sequence. Double-doh! Sticking her into qualification mode and seguing into a PULL after that would have been so easy. She was already feeling self-concious and begging for approval. I really blew a golden opportunity there! I need more dating practice.

We chit-chatted some more about random life subjects. I got her talking about dancing, and that she loves latin music, especially Salsa. I do too, and talked about my [music] DJing experience. I also mentioned that I'd taken couples dancing lessons in the past, that I really enjoyed it, and that I'd like to start some again, Salsa would be fun. She didn't pick up the ball, I think intentionally (not sure if it was insufficient IL or she wanted me to lead by being more forward). I tried to get as much info about her background and living conditions as I could. Talked about me but only gave her interesting (value) bits and pieces (mystery). I cut the date off right after I got the convo back into an up mood. We went to the cash together. The cashier asked us "1 or 2 bills?", I hate it when they ask that, HB already had her wallet out! Grrr! I said "2". She got her's first and paid. She stayed beside me (good IL sign?) while the girl rang mine up (which felt a little awkward, she was slow, it seemed to take forever!). I left a generous tip. We walked to the door, I opened it for her, she thanked me. I told her it was nice meeting her, she reciprocated with a slight smile, and I gave her a light hug and two cheek kisses. She didn't show any resistance, but no encouragement either, it felt totally neutral. Total: 1 hour 30 minutes.

Conclusion: The date went generally well. I know it was way too long for a 1st coffee date, but the time seemed to fly, there were no awkward pauses, and I forgot to check. The tone was nearly always light and fun. Even when she was talking about negative stuff, she kept an upbeat tone of voice and mostly smiled. Her body language was mostly open. She seemed friendly and enjoyed talking with me. I didn't do as much EC as I should have, but she responded favourably to most of what I did do. Kino was impossible to do naturally because of our seating positions (except for the table switch). Any type of hand contact seemed out of place and awkward, so I abstained. I was too self-concious about my body-language/posture, keeping the convo flowing smoothly, and making mental notes of useful info she was feeding me. It's been about a month since my last 1st date, so I was feeling rusty. And the fact that she was much prettier than I expected probably threw me off too. I'm unsure of what her IL was at the end of the date, my very iffy estimate is 4-5. I plan on cashing in on the "let's celebrate your new work schedule" theme by calling her later this week and inviting her out for some drinks. I guess (hopefully) that will give me a better idea of her IL. I think I may be headed for LJBF land, because while I'm sure she enjoyed my company, I don't feel I got much attraction going. Any suggestions on how to up it would be greatly appreciated. She's one fine prospect according to my criteria. The best I've run into since I started dating again, so I'd love to keep her around. If worst comes to worst, I'd still want her to stick around as she'd make great social proof.

 

[GoodOlBoy]

You elicited values very nicely here and the motorcycle fantasy is great. You want to up it a bit though. You should elicit how the motorcyle makes her feel (ie. feelings of excitment, adventure, the power of the engine and how a good ride always makes her feel good).

She is an easy one because she wants to be lead. You were a bit self conscious as you noted but I'd say her IL in you was already sky high to meet you after only emailing and talking on the phone a couple of times.

For your next encounter with her you should be thinking two things...establishing an incredible connection. Once you elicit her values properly and only get her thinking about exciting things that make her happy and ultimately feel sexual, you want to link those feelings to you by saying me too when appropriate. Also up the kino. If you know what anchoring is, then you should use it when you're establishing an incredible connection. You can take her hand after she's said something like, "Yeah that really makes me excited." You grab her hand, look into her eyes, and say, "I've had that feeling about you...you're so much like me."

If all these things go well and she's very receptive to kino, then you can move to a different environment...if you're at a bar say, "This place is getting so loud and I really want to listen to you." "I've got a nice bottle of wine at my place, so let's get outta here."

I think this should help you seal the deal.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Originally posted by GoodOlBoy
You elicited values very nicely here and the motorcycle fantasy is great. You want to up it a bit though. You should elicit how the motorcyle makes her feel (ie. feelings of excitment, adventure, the power of the engine and how a good ride always makes her feel good).

That's what I was trying to do at the coffee shop. Her face and eyes lit up when I got her talking about it. But it fizzled after maybe 5 minutes. Her first sentence was that it was hard to describe (I think she's a little shy). Any ideas on how to keep fueling the feeling/dialogue for longer? I basically just asked her how it made her feel, and let her run with it while listening attentively and looking into her eyes...

I was thinking how to get her back on this without it looking like me re-hashing a scenario. Here's what I've come up with... On our next date, take her somewhere near a motorcycle dealership. Then when we "casually walk by", grab her by the hand (kino) and lead her there for some window shopping. What do you think?

She is an easy one because she wants to be lead.

That's an interesting remark. What makes you think that?

You were a bit self conscious as you noted but I'd say her IL in you was already sky high to meet you after only emailing and talking on the phone a couple of times.

I think it was too, but my feeling is that it fizzled during the date. Maybe too long, or didn't keep leading, not sure. At the end, I think she "liked" me, but didn't really feel "attraction". My mind read on her was "He's interesting and a nice guy", at the beginning it was more "I wonder if I'm good enough for him". Though to be truthful, I don't think I was giving off high IL vibes myself. My tone of voice, posture and body-language were saying "You're a nice lady and interesting, but I'm not sure about you yet", which is what I was thinking. Maybe she was mirroring, or didn't want to seem much more eager? I like her, think she's nice and fun to talk to, and pretty. But honestly I wasn't feeling the hots for her. Though I very rarely do with a woman I just met. Only happened to me once...

For your next encounter with her you should be thinking two things...establishing an incredible connection. Once you elicit her values properly and only get her thinking about exciting things that make her happy and ultimately feel sexual, you want to link those feelings to you by saying me too when appropriate.

That's where I feel handicapped with her. I have trouble relating to the subject that excites her, because I have no knowledge or experience with it.

If you know what anchoring is, then you should use it when you're establishing an incredible connection.

Don't know what anchoring is. Is this a SS concept?

Also up the kino. You can take her hand after she's said something like, "Yeah that really makes me excited." You grab her hand, look into her eyes, and say, "I've had that feeling about you...you're so much like me."

I'd have trouble with that. Sounds like a cheezy PU antic. Maybe on a 20-year old, but she's 30, and pretty. She gets harassed in clubs, and I'm sure she's been hit on by hundreds of guys. Especially the "I've had that feeling about you", isn't that like telling a woman you love her or bring flowers on a 1st date?

If all these things go well and she's very receptive to kino, then you can move to a different environment...if you're at a bar say, "This place is getting so loud and I really want to listen to you." "I've got a nice bottle of wine at my place, so let's get outta here."

Yeah, I know eventually I need to go there. Just not sure about 2nd date, maybe rushing things... She's basically a "nice girl". And honestly, I'm a "nice guy", don't want to rush myself... Though I agree with the base idea, need to get her isolated and as Mike from MI would say "thinking romantical thoughts" I'd like to get at least a few kisses out of her on date 2, but not much else.

Thanks for the feedback. Any additional help is most welcome.

 

[ZeeOwl]

When to call?...

Just a quicky question about this situation. I plan on calling her to take her celebrating (probably in a pub) about her new better work hours. 1st date was Sunday afternoon.

On the one hand, I don't want to call her too soon to make myself look too eager and available. I understand and agree with the principal that until you're dating someone exclusively, more than 1 date a week is not a good idea.

On the other hand, waiting too long to make this offer might make it look out of context, and a bit weird, since she started her new schedule yesterday (Monday).

If I did call her this week, it would be tonight (Tuesday), asking her out for Thursday. I have another date tomorrow.

Opinions please...

 

[Slickster]

Originally posted by GoodOlBoy
You elicited values very nicely here and the motorcycle fantasy is great. You want to up it a bit though. You should elicit how the motorcyle makes her feel (ie. feelings of excitment, adventure, the power of the engine and how a good ride always makes her feel good).

She is an easy one because she wants to be lead. You were a bit self conscious as you noted but I'd say her IL in you was already sky high to meet you after only emailing and talking on the phone a couple of times.

For your next encounter with her you should be thinking two things...establishing an incredible connection. Once you elicit her values properly and only get her thinking about exciting things that make her happy and ultimately feel sexual, you want to link those feelings to you by saying me too when appropriate. Also up the kino. If you know what anchoring is, then you should use it when you're establishing an incredible connection. You can take her hand after she's said something like, "Yeah that really makes me excited." You grab her hand, look into her eyes, and say, "I've had that feeling about you...you're so much like me."

If all these things go well and she's very receptive to kino, then you can move to a different environment...if you're at a bar say, "This place is getting so loud and I really want to listen to you." "I've got a nice bottle of wine at my place, so let's get outta here."

I think this should help you seal the deal.

Wow! Someone around here who actually knows and wants to discuss the details of seduction! Good post GoodOlBoy. We need more posts like this around here.

Owl. I remember from your previous posts that you are a cyclist. Mountain biking? Well its not exactly the same but you might be able to relate some of the feelings you have there with her motorcycling. If not you can always make something up. Tell about a motorcycle ride you went on as a kid or something.

I know very little about SS too. However I find it funny how whenever the fine details of seduction come up *eliciting values, anchoring, incredible connections, etc* people seem to lump it all into the SS category and shy away.

Read Senor Fingers "Building Rapport" again. There is a lot of great stuff there.

"States of Seduction" which I wrote has some ideas along these lines too.

My opinion on when to call is solely based on her IL. Like GoodOlBoy said I think her IL is pretty high. If so, it doesn't really matter when you call. As long as you don't come off as desperate and just throw the idea out there as something fun to do. I think it would be fine to call her anytime.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Originally posted by Slickster
I remember from your previous posts that you are a cyclist. Mountain biking? Well its not exactly the same but you might be able to relate some of the feelings you have there with her motorcycling. If not you can always make something up. Tell about a motorcycle ride you went on as a kid or something.

Actually, I was a cyclist for a week while my car was in the shop. lol But I get the general idea. I'll just put myself in the state of mind she was in while telling me about it. I remember the adjectives and tone of voice she was using.

I know very little about SS too. However I find it funny how whenever the fine details of seduction come up *eliciting values, anchoring, incredible connections, etc* people seem to lump it all into the SS category and shy away.

The terminology is just a little unfamiliar to me. That's why I asked that. I consider myself an expert at LTRs, but a rookie at seduction, so I'm trying to get the hang of all this.

Read Senor Fingers "Building Rapport" again. There is a lot of great stuff there.

"States of Seduction" which I wrote has some ideas along these lines too.

Thanks for the links. Very educational reads. I love the games, I can see myself using those.

My opinion on when to call is solely based on her IL. Like GoodOlBoy said I think her IL is pretty high. If so, it doesn't really matter when you call. As long as you don't come off as desperate and just throw the idea out there as something fun to do. I think it would be fine to call her anytime.

Like I said before, I think her IL was high too, for the first part of the date. Then I had the feeling it was slipping. But I could be mistaken, I'm not very good at reading IL yet. To relate to your "states", I had her solidly in "interest", but I feel I failed to take her to "attraction". I do feel I had a bit of "rapport" going. Skipped a step? Though with the rapport, after reading the threads you suggested, I realize that what I did was only ask questions. I didn't connect to what she was saying by mirroring her values.

Anyways, for now I'm going to check out some motorcycle dealerships and see if there are any pubs near them.

 

[Slickster]

Hey ZeeOwl,

I know exactly what you mean about the Rapport thing? I was just as confused about what it actually meant for a long time. Just like you said, its not just finding out "what or how" she feels, but mirroring those feelings back inorder to build a connection. A feeling of one-ness. (Eg. We are the same, we've been through the same things/feelings.) That is rapport. Its funny because I had been using that term for quite a while without really knowing what it meant.


Actually that ^^^^^ paragraph was a perfect example of rapport. I've just mirrored back to you similar feelings of confusion and realization about the topic *rapport*

*** The "Attraction state" in my States of Seduction post doesn't necessarily mean "physical" or "sexual" attraction. Think of it this way. You could have rapport with an ugly chick too. You may not be attracted to her physically but before you start connecting feelings/experiences (ie. rapport) with her, there must be some form of attraction there. It may be you are attracted to her outgoing personality or fun loving attitude. The point is you don't go telling people personal feelings and such unless you actually like or are attracted to them in some way.

Beer sounds good.

 

[ZeeOwl]

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[ZeeOwl]

Originally posted by Slickster
The "Attraction state" in my States of Seduction post doesn't necessarily mean "physical" or "sexual" attraction. Think of it this way. You could have rapport with an ugly chick too. You may not be attracted to her physically but before you start connecting feelings/experiences (ie. rapport) with her, there must be some form of attraction there. It may be you are attracted to her outgoing personality or fun loving attitude. The point is you don't go telling people personal feelings and such unless you actually like or are attracted to them in some way.

Ok, I see where you're coming from. So basically, if her face lights up when I ask the question, and she's telling me in as much detail as she can how it makes her feel, then that means she must also feel at least minimal attraction? Is my understanding correct?

Beer sounds good.

Yeah it did. I called her last night. She said she doesn't go out on weeknights usually, with no counter offer. Told her I was going clubbing Saturday, and she was welcome to come along. She said she already had something, with again no counter-offer. So I told her if she feels like doing something sometime to call me. Looks like it's game over with this one.

Oh well, you lose some, you win some. I just got a response to one of my intro eMails from a cute (8-9, the photo is a bit fuzzy) 29-year-old bi girl, with one of the most interesting and well written profiles I've seen. That's a rare combination.

Post mortem: I think another place I may have messed up was going AFC on her when she starting talking about her job. My automatic reaction was to reassure her that it didn't bother me (Mr. Nice Guy to the rescue ). Though if I'd cashed it on it to neg-hit her, I might have come across as a jerk? This girl had zero attitude, she was sweet and friendly. Any additional insight on where I messed up would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to make the same mistakes with the next one. I'd rather make new mistakes.

P.S. Sorry for all the deleted posts, the board was acting up last night.

 

[myfriendblu]

sounds good, you did fine. Don't get all bogged down by little missed things you shoulda done. Big deal. In the long run it means nothing. Do you think her IL would drop because you forgot a little kino or weren't as quick and witty as you shoulda been? Nope. I woulda kept the date a bit shorter, you do want to maintain an aura of mystery. Overall, I think her IL isn't all that high. I would rate it as a 4. Not high enough to warrent a second date. Good job and get back out there.

BTW, I think this internet date thing is GREAT for people over 30.