Does anyone just get tired of the games?

[WestCoaster]

You're 1/10th right on the media, but I talked with CEOs and managers all the time. That's the people you need to be talking about. They're setting the rules, not the media.

CEOs are doing this because they can. They want a more educated work force -- not saying they're necessarily getting that -- but that's what they're seeking. Always look at CEOs and companies first, not the media. That's kind of like the conservatives blaming Hollywood for our drug problem. Nah, blame the dealers and people's need for drugs to enhance their crappy lives.

College enrollments started going up in the late 80's and early 90's when CEO's started demanding degrees -- right or wrong -- way before newspapers or the media had anything to do with it. Can't totally blame them. They assessed the kind of educations high schools were producing and how immature 18-year olds are today and decided to up the ante.

Caught in the crossfire are guys busting their a$$es for 25 years at the companies. These people should not have to go back and earn degrees to do the same job they've been doing for two decades.

I don't blame the CEOs for upping the ante; I do blame them for foolishly displacing and hiring over seasoned, veteran workers.

It's certainly not the media's fault, they're only a contributor. Messenger shooting gets people nowhere.

 

[Vulpine]

Very well, then.

So you are pointing out the greed chicken came first and laid the greed egg.

Fine. I'll leave it at that.

And, to get back to the point of the thread: "Does anyone just get tired of the games?" Yes. You have to see through to the cause: greed, money, degrees, green, glitter, glamour, gold-digging, judging value based on income, marketing, hype, etc. etc.

The BULK of the games we play (with women, in social environments, at work, virtually anywhere you interact with others -even this site... ".com") can be traced back to money, greed, capitalism, etc.

I need only drop in little puzzle pieces for anyone to make the connections: Cosmopolitan, Oprah/Dr. Phil, E-Harmony, Country Music, and say... uh... Hallmark.

$$$$

 

[WestCoaster]

I don't think everything is black and white, greed and no greed. I think CEO's got tired of immature/jackoff 18-year olds with poor work ethics who can't speak inteligible sentences when overseas competitors are hiring bright Asians who can solve complex issues. They wanted to up the ante and they did it; the greed lies in forcing 40- and 50-year old workers to go back to college, not trying to higher brighter people.

Newspapers/media didn't catch on to this trend until four/five years after it was happening.

Greed is a part of it, however, but people here are too defensive about what's happening instead of trying to figure out how to work the system.

In today's techno-sophisticated world and global markets, no f'n way would I hire a kid from high school today to walk into board meetings with his sandles and torn jeans on with his tattooes all over the place. If I'm a CEO, I go for a higher product, not a high school kid. Maybe in 1950, this ain't the 50's anymore.

 

[Latinoman]

Good career. For the love of the gods. Another one hung up on the career thing. Westcoaster, go check out my post to Phyzzle.

Yes, career is important, as a couple you need to pay for bills and expenses.

Many HOT women will still marry you though or get into long term relationships with men even if it's a career at 30k a year. Again, this is based on what I've seen and am seeing.

The "good career" is NOT to get women. The "good career" is to make sure you are taking care of yourself (and as importantly - your retirement).

 

[Latinoman]

I'll have to jump on this later.....

Me too.

By the way..."Career" does NOT translate to "Income". I have a lot of respect for the person that cleans my office. I have a lot of respect for any person that works and that maximizes her/his talents. I don't care if the person is a bartender, hairdresser, etc. It has nothing to do with education either.

But career are importants because it allows you to have a lifehood. Furthermore, our retirement pensions might rely on that.

 

[Vulpine]

I don't think everything is black and white, greed and no greed. I think CEO's got tired of immature/jackoff 18-year olds with poor work ethics who can't speak inteligible sentences...

Well, see, now you're getting onto an entirely different game.

You are arguing that a "degree" is functionally an insurance policy against bad parenting. So, retarded kids that don't know how to act go to college to learn how be functional adults.

I can agree to that.

Would the military effectively do the same thing?

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...By the way..."Career" does NOT translate to "Income". ....

Very true (yet sounds strangely familiar).

 

[Vulpine]

You know what? Fux the rest of this argument.

I call "LAZY" on the whole thing.

I just read where someone said, "People spend more time shopping for a car than shopping for a woman."

:yes:

CEO's are just too lazy to scruitinize candidates and think about actual qualifications, so they skim resumes down 3 lines until they get to "Degree".

Lazy.

They want to glance at a resume and find one word that puts that piece of paper in the trash, or on the "potential" pile. "Degree" is the closest they can come to an indicator. Too bad they don't look for the word "experience" instead.

Laziness.

If these "CEO's" spent more time on hiring, they'd have a better workforce. Oh, they wouldn't flat-out tell you "I'm lazy". Of course not, they'll blame employees, the workforce, and anyone and everything besides themselves.

"Hey CEO, what's with you only hiring people with degrees?"

Erhem. Well, er, I'm La... uh, looking for a more educated workforce. Yeah, and I don't want to have punk kids thinking they can show up at work with a bunch of bolts and hooks hanging off their faces, blaring that dang rap music in their cars when they pull up. That's it, rap music... er, no, I mean, Asians are so much smarter and with better work ethics, that's what I meant.

I think I'm going to get back to rolling my eyes at the whole game.

 

[WestCoaster]

Would the military effectively do the same thing?

Yes, I'd hire the majority (not all) of military guys in a second.

Here's the deal, we have to hire student workers in my office. The ones right out of high school have zippo work ethic and no clue. We just hired two. One is 20 (but married), we hired one 18-year old because we thought she was mature. Wrong-o!

My boss told her to work on her dress (quit with the cleavage), she had to tell her that three times before she got it right ... then wore short shorts to an important function last week. My boss (a woman ...I can't comment on girls' dress, obviously) says, "Do you have anything to change into?" The gal looks at her like, "Huh."

Clue zero ... most kids coming out of high school today are like this because in high school they focused on dating, drinking and/or drugging, and trying to be popular. Anyone hiring kids right out of high school for important management positions are sunk today, and just hiring them for entry-level puts one's business in jeopardy. You may call it greed, I call it smart business.

Greed comes in displacing older workers, not demanding more from your entry-level and younger workers.

College doesn't solve anything, but I'd hire a college student -- graduate or not -- over a high school kid most every time, and so would other professions. They're not polished enough. I know if I was in a business that worked with people every day, I'd want someone whose life experience goes beyond living with mommy and daddy and whose previous job was at Burger King. Blaming CEOs for wanting more from their work force when they can get it is stupid; blame them for being a-holes to older workers, THAT is the problem.

 

[WestCoaster]

CEO's are just too lazy to scruitinize candidates and think about actual qualifications, so they skim resumes down 3 lines until they get to "Degree".

You gotta get out more. In my previous job, our manager would get 100 applications a day ... it was in the media business by the way. He didn't have time to go over 100 applications a day. That's not lazy, that's being smart.

So they have a filtering device -- it's called parameters -- to trim the search down. Knowing that high school kids weren't qualified for such a position, that automatically disqualified them, especially when they were getting people from all over the country from major corporations applying. Why would they turn down a guy with a degree and major corporate work behind him for a guy who graduated from the nearest high school? That's not lazy, that's smart. The guy with major experience -- usually 10-20 years worth, with major projects behind him -- is just BETTER than the high school kid, plain and simple.

Now where they erred (it was a major metro newspaper) is too often they overlooked the hard-working guy from a smaller newspaper and gravitated too much to the NY Times, Washington Post guy. Why? Because they could. And sometimes these big time guys were big time lazy, but it was a risk they were willing to take.

So the manager had a few options:

1. He could spend all of his 40-60 hours a week going through resumes, when half aren't qualified ... or

2. Have filtering devices -- i.e. parameters.

Again, blaming the "system" is getting one nowhere. It's best to go out and get the skills one needs to X profession.

Talking non-college, a good friend of mine is a plumber in my hometown, a very small town. He is slowly taking over his dad's business. What did he do? He didn't expect his dad to hand him over the business, he went out and got an apprenticeship and a LICENSE, while the other brother expected a hand-out and didn't get it. Younger brother did the work and fulfilled the necessary requirements for the job.

 

[Vulpine]

Yes, I'd hire the majority (not all) of military guys in a second....

College doesn't solve anything, but I'd hire a college student -- graduate or not -- over a high school kid most every time, and so would other professions. They're not polished enough.

Well, it's refreshing to hear that from you. My stance has been that college, aside from professions such as engineering or medicine etc., serves no other purpose but to instill a work ethic, responsibility, and social skills in those that attend.

The same can be achieved in the military.

Not everyone wants to admit that; especially those that blew $50k on it.

 

[WestCoaster]

Not everyone wants to go military, not everyone wants to go to college. But blaming CEOs who are trying to up their workforce gets one nowhere. Not everyone who went to college looks at the money is blown, especially when one gets that money back in higher wages as opposed to just having a high school degree. Since the majority of white collar jobs pay more than blue collar jobs in this country and it takes a college degree to get them, I'd hardly say it's a waste -- unless the majority of students I'm working with who just graduated and got high-paying jobs are lying to me.

I also work with a lot of military guys and THEY tell me that military isn't enough, employers are still seeking college grads. You're looking at things that are intangibles, work ethic, etc. ... employers -- right or wrong -- are looking at skill set.

I met with four military guys last week, all said they learned more about business/accounting/managment in college, but learned work ethic in military. They also said a business wasn't just going to hire them on their military background. Not saying this is right, just going by what THEY were telling me.

It's best not to live in fantasy land, but find ways to work the system, either by going to college, starting your own business, going to the military, or getting an apprenticeship and licesne in a field ... or people can b-tch about college and how people's hiring practices are wrong. It's best to work the system in your favor instead of hoping all the CEOs in the country will wake up one day because guys on the internet said they were lazy.

 

[Vulpine]

... it was in the media business by the way. He didn't have time to go over 100 applications a day. That's not lazy, that's being smart.
...Knowing that high school kids weren't qualified for such a position, ...Why would they turn down a guy with a degree and major corporate work behind him for a guy who graduated from the nearest high school? ... The guy with major experience -- usually 10-20 years worth, with major projects behind him -- is just BETTER than the high school kid, plain and simple.

See, this is why I said: Fux the rest of this argument. You are going backwards and arguing my point in a circle.

Smart, lazy, too many applications...

Not qualified?

...degree AND major corporate work..

...the guy with major experience...

"Better" than the high school kid?

Let me ask you, specifically what was it that a guy would NEED to learn in college to get that job? Chemistry? Physics? Anatomy/Physiology?

Or, had he taken "High School English" could he have functioned well and fine?

If the guy from the big corporation had started at that corporation without a degree, would he still be employable at other papers?

According to you, yes. So, according to you, a degree doesn't mean jack d!ck diddly squat in the real world aside from a "parameter" to filter out applicants so the big boss can make that 2:00 tee time.

Here it goes...

 

[WestCoaster]

No, one would have to have extension work on major investigative stories, meeting deadlines, writing under pressure, ability to establish sources ... there's not a high school paper in America that trains one for that.

Correct, some guys are lazy and need to make the tee time. Many others, no, they're wearing many hats and trying to juggle many things. The paper I was on won four Pulitzers in six years, they have standards and hiring kids off high school newspapers won't do it. You REALLY need to get out more and see how the world works, I'm serious. This place didn't even hire off college papers, one had to have 10 years experience just to get an interview. High school English isn't enough, it goes far beyond that. One has to know law, FOIA rules, various other laws, rules, regulations, etc. Even on a few dink-wad papers I was on when I was covering general news (I often did sports), I had to spend a lot of time going over records in court houses, reading through tons of records, deciphering all kinds of stuff that in now way a high school kid could do. I had to refer to law books and stuff. It goes WAY beyond knowing grammar.

You simply things too much.


Quick questions for you:

1. Do you think a high school diploma prepares one for the corporate world? If so, why?

2. Which high school kids do you know could step into the corporate environment immediately?

3. Could've you at 18 stepped directly into the corporate environment?

4. Why do think it's wrong to go to college or some kind of training? Why do you dismiss that?

 

[WestCoaster]

As for the question of hiring a guy off a corporate paper without a college degree, won't happen. To get on the big paper, one has to have a degree. There are some instances -- I'd say 1 out of probably 10,000 employees in the field -- who skipped the degree and after years of bouncing around small papers, got on to a big paper. One of the best sportswriters I know didn't finish his degree and he's truly outstanding.

I also knew some young guys who got on the big paper I was working at with college degrees from big-time journalism programs who weren't sh-t and had poor work ethics. This was the downfall of just hiring a certain degree while overlooking harder working guys from lesser schools.

The hiring process isn't perfect and no one said it was so. It's best not to live in an idealistic world as to, "why don't they do this," and, "they're just trying to make their tee time," and, "they're lazy," and, "a college degree is a waste" and so forth. It's far too generalizing. Yes, SOMETIMES managers are lazy, yes, SOMETIMES all they care about is their tee time (in more than 15 years in the business with dozens of managers, I had one like this; I had about five who were lazy).

Again, it's best to know the game, the field, how it works, and get the proper training and experience to enter such a field instead of complaining why the rules are set up like that. For every person crying about the rules, 100's more are getting in line to get the training and getting the jobs, see my plumber example.

Another example: gal I knew had no college degree and complained for two decades about getting leap-frogged by college grads. It was wrong, but it was how the game was played. Instead of going to college back when it was cheap two decades ago, she complained. She finally got that big time promotion after 20 years. Could've made more money by sacrificing a little money to go to college ... but she'd rather complain.

Complaining about the system doesn't usually work ... but yes, older, experienced workers are getting screwed by out degree obsessed society.

 

[edger]

Indeed.

Clueless? I thought you agreed with me?

 

[WestCoaster]

Another way of looking at college is it replaces employee training programs. For you sports fans out there, what is the NFL's training ground? College. Who pays for this training ground? College ... not a dime out of the NFL's pocket, except for hosting the combine.

What is Major League Baseball's biggest expense? It's four- and five-tiered minor league system (rookie ball, short A, long A, double-A, Triple-A). They pay salaries for every player and some insurance. College baseball a little, but it's their extensive training program that costs money.

What is an employer's biggest expense? Salaries and insurance.

What has replaced company trainee programs in the last 30 years? College, where students pay and colleges graduate them to jobs. Not much skin off employers' backs.

Not saying that's always the right thing to do, but that's how it works. Why spend thousands in an employee trainee program for immature high schools students (who might leave after a year anyway) when colleges will do the training?

That's the drill ... told to me numerous times by managers, CEOs, and human resource people from various companies. I'm just the messenger ...

 

[Vulpine]

I'm just the messenger ...

That, and the fact that you make your living OFF the "get a degree" game.

It benefits you to further the hustle.

Preach on, playa - tell us how it is.

It's like the dude that makes the gilded pot-metal chains for those dudes trying to sucker fools into buying them as "fo-teen K!" He might not agree with the hustle, but he'll go right on making those fake-azz chains.

"Yo! I got deez degrees here, $50k Yo! Come on, now! Deez are the real deal. You gonna need deez to impress da ladies, right, Playa? Looky heyah, see this? That's BATCH-LERS yo, recognize. Aww... naw man, see, I ain't just givin' deez away, now! Check it: I been talkin' to deez CEO's n'all dat, see? Dass right, so peep this, say you wanna get a job and sh!t, right? Just floss 'dis at da boss man and... TADOW! JOB! Makin' FAT green, dawg. Yo, $45k, and I'll throw in this T-shirt, Money, what's it gonna be? Aww, pssshf... whadeva mang. Don't hate on a playa now! Oh, you gon' to da bank? Aight, handle yo business, den. I'll be right here. Juss don' be suprise when you gets back an I aint here - I might have to run back on to the crib and grab up a few more: You know, I can't just be hangin' round here with a pocket full of degrees, now, y'naw mean playa? Sheeeiiit!! G'won, den."

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...What has replaced company trainee programs in the last 30 years? College, where students pay and colleges graduate them to jobs. Not much skin off employers' backs.

Not saying that's always the right thing to do, but that's how it works. Why spend thousands in an employee trainee program for immature high schools students (who might leave after a year anyway) when colleges will do the training? ...

So correct. But did they tell you the troubles that the college grads who have never held a job have when they start work?

1. Lack of popularity (possibly because of their glaring sense of entitlement)
2. They naively believe that businesses operate the way that it is written in textbooks.
3. Office politics, they don't get it.
4. They suck up to the wrong people (they brown nose the CEO but snub his/her administrative assistant).
5. They believe everyone except the boss is out to get them. WELL DUH!!!

 

[penkitten]

But in my case I always seem to find a LEMON!!!

sometimes in life, its really about enjoying some lemonade for a while.

you are going to meet some weirdos out there, some crazies, some lazies and some rude , crude and socially unacceptable people.

you will also meet some normal people with everyday kind of things going on, some nice hardworking people. those are the people you want to surround yourself with and pass up the people with toxic attitudes.