BLM, Racism, riots, entitlement's etc

[zekko]

Starts the post off with a lie. Now here comes the strawman argument...

What are you trying to say is a lie? Are you trying to say the protests are strictly about police violence against black people? Why did they topple a statue of Frederick Douglass then? Was he a staff sergeant at the local precinct?

Tell us how you really feel. Sounds like this was always about who is protesting, not what they are protesting...

Oh, it is most definitely the what that is so alarming here. And it's not all about the protesters, as I said it's about all the craziness that goes with it.
But the protesters lost me when they were directing so much hate toward innocent police officers. Because that showed they were painting them all with one broad brush, which shows prejudice, which under the circumstances was hypocritical. Most of those yelling at police were white, by the way.

 

[Epicenter]

Enlighten us. Why?

You might have a theory yourself from a sjw perspective with a racism detector?

 

[Spaz]

Is this a serious question?



Micro vs. Macro.

It doesn't matter if @Spaz is racist nor does it matter if someone is racist against Spaz. The issue is, does Spaz have the power to violate the rights of other people because he is racist?

In the United States, there are a significant number of those racists that have a badge and a weapon that are abusing black citizens. That is unacceptable.

There's concerted efforts towards that end in the police force, is it not so ?

What I'm saying is, despite the efforts, policemen are still humans, even if you employ EVERY policeman that's black, there will still be disproportionate violence against hood's that's disproportionately black, by those policemen IF the hood's remains the same.

Calling those black policemen racist would be ridiculous, as much as this entire drama is.

It ultimately takes 2 hands to clap.

You can't blame one but not the other because both are the root causes.

 

[metalwater]

Assuming that the code-theory was right (i.e. people speak in code to avoid accusations of racism), that would be the logical inference that such a belief (i.e. interpretation of "Affirmative Action" or the country going to the dogs), that such a belief must have come from a group that would also have such beliefs. However, as you are suggesting you may have meant something else, then the logical inference in which that assumption was made is also incorrect and therefore I may have been in error. Of course you are free to clarify what you meant by what sounded like a coded message.

It sounded like a very sarcastic coded message. I apologize if it was meant differently. I wish you made a different type of thread and started a new subject rather than put something like this in the middle of what looked like a flame war between me and @Who Dares Win , etc.... It's possible I took it the wrong way. But that's the thing with a coded message, you can always explain your way out of it, or it won't be coded.

Not like you tell. It is true that I believe it is unfair to be required to hire a person due to race or other nonrelevant things to a task to be done. On many levels. if another is more qualified or even equally qualified. It is also very unfair for a struggling Caucasian to be refused for work that they can and want to do because the employer MUST hire a different race do to unfair policy. Generally, those that complain about things being unfair don't realize that the actual laws and actions are now unfair in the other way, and also do not care with no sympathy for the affected ones but only looking for there own wants.

I don't do much indirect speech, those things I added at the face value. I do use parables some times but usually, clearly call out that I do so.

In the context of BLM, I can or could support a lot of the goals. but someone decided to make it about race instead of a more general thing. They(not sure how they are..) lump all caucasian together. if they wanted to have a generalized team goal the name would have been something unifying, not something divisive. They completely forget that half of us or more than half already stood for them and with them to save/rescue/help because it was the right thing to do and many would do it now.

Police that break the law should be dealt with; period. and in a stronger way than others of the same crimes. I would not want witch hunts but for clear cases, the law should be applied regardless of gender or race. The cases of abuse to women and other races by any police or a public employee or by anyone should be lumped together to make the point about the actions. It should not be tolerated. Generally, US police are way better than in many other places, in some comparisons by a huge difference. I also believe that we should submit to our authorities if/when needed. Stop or I'll shoot means exactly that and is or was an expected and agreed upon response and action.

I believe that the decline of US is somewhat described in a book The Fourth Turning, it is an interesting read. In addition and maybe more influential is the exact topics that this forum is famous for, gender relations. USA has that setup wrong (in my opinion) and it leads to a breaking of the success. I don't think race relations comes even close to either of those (gender relations and generation patterns) in overall importance.

Anyway, nice chatting w/ ya. I get your point, and NO I was not trying to be an ass, but I get exactly why you and probably some others could think that. This topic race relations, that similar to gender relations just does not work the way I wish it would. I was probably born too late and would have fit better in earlier times. We are not all the same, each person has strengths and weaknesses. Many of those follow along ethnic lines, but not always. Just like there is really a woman that can take down most men in a fight, but it is rare. Rather than fight to be equal we should praise each other's strengths and work together admitting the same to become more together and just drop all the jealousy. But, that is not reality.

I don't really believe in inherited debt, I do know of some cultures that do.

 

[Spaz]

Not like you tell. It is true that I believe it is unfair to be required to hire a person due to race or other nonrelevant things to a task to be done. On many levels. if another is more qualified or even equally qualified. It is also very unfair for a struggling Caucasian to be refused for work that they can and want to do because the employer MUST hire a different race do to unfair policy. Generally, those that complain about things being unfair don't realize that the actual laws and actions are now unfair in the other way, and also do not care with no sympathy for the affected ones but only looking for there own wants.

I don't do much indirect speech, those things I added at the face value. I do use parables some times but usually, clearly call out that I do so.

In the context of BLM, I can or could support a lot of the goals. but someone decided to make it about race instead of a more general thing. They(not sure how they are..) lump all caucasian together. if they wanted to have a generalized team goal the name would have been something unifying, not something divisive. They completely forget that half of us or more than half already stood for them and with them to save/rescue/help because it was the right thing to do and many would do it now.

Police that break the law should be dealt with; period. and in a stronger way than others of the same crimes. I would not want witch hunts but for clear cases, the law should be applied regardless of gender or race. The cases of abuse to women and other races by any police or a public employee or by anyone should be lumped together to make the point about the actions. It should not be tolerated. Generally, US police are way better than in many other places, in some comparisons by a huge difference. I also believe that we should submit to our authorities if/when needed. Stop or I'll shoot means exactly that and is or was an expected and agreed upon response and action.

I believe that the decline of US is somewhat described in a book The Fourth Turning, it is an interesting read. In addition and maybe more influential is the exact topics that this forum is famous for, gender relations. USA has that setup wrong (in my opinion) and it leads to a breaking of the success. I don't think race relations comes even close to either of those (gender relations and generation patterns) in overall importance.

Anyway, nice chatting w/ ya. I get your point, and NO I was not trying to be an ass, but I get exactly why you and probably some others could think that. This topic race relations, that similar to gender relations just does not work the way I wish it would. I was probably born too late and would have fit better in earlier times. We are not all the same, each person has strengths and weaknesses. Many of those follow along ethnic lines, but not always. Just like there is really a woman that can take down most men in a fight, but it is rare. Rather than fight to be equal we should praise each other's strengths and work together admitting the same to become more together and just drop all the jealousy. But, that is not reality.

I don't really believe in inherited debt, I do know of some cultures that do.

A smart man knows that race is irrelevant to him.

Skills, knowledge and talent is what they seek in themselves, and in others.

Would a businessman hire someone who can make him more money or would he hire someone just because he's of similar race ?

In the end, he will hire someone who can make him more money because that person has talents, skills and knowledge.

This is what we in Sosuave should inculcate in our members.

 

[backseatjuan]

Where there are less democrats there is less coronavirus if anyone has noticed. Less BLM and other nonsense. Who votes for democrats, fags, illegal aliens, blacks, anfifa and other gay trasheap. "Normal people". None normal people, truck drivers, farmers, working Americans vote republican. Those leftists put everything upside down, gays even stole the rainbow flag, it used to be christian.

Say no to racism. Literally, don't deal with blacks. Why should you? You might not be racist but those bastards always make it racial. Don't deal with fags. You don't care if they wear a dress and bang each other in the butt at the privacy of their their home, why should you see them kissing in public? Don't deal with anything that is not normal. What those blacks are doing is not normal. Their culture is not normal, their music is not normal, they are not normal.

 

[samspade]

A smart man knows that race is irrelevant to him.

Skills, knowledge and talent is what they seek in themselves, and in others.

Would a businessman hire someone who can make him more money or would he hire someone just because he's of similar race ?

In the end, he will hire someone who can make him more money because that person has talents, skills and knowledge.

This is what we in Sosuave should inculcate in our members.

Quoted for truth. Probably why Spaz is one of the few not getting worked up into a lather over race around here.

Obviously some men hire by race out of fear, but they run the risk of hiring less competent workers. It becomes "systemic" not because it's codified (anymore) but because of social pressure and cowardly men afraid to break with the group.

...as for defunding things, my solution is simple. Decriminalize and/or legalize vices and watch as gangs become magically defunded.

 

[corrector]

Not like you tell. It is true that I believe it is unfair to be required to hire a person due to race or other nonrelevant things to a task to be done. On many levels. if another is more qualified or even equally qualified. It is also very unfair for a struggling Caucasian to be refused for work that they can and want to do because the employer MUST hire a different race do to unfair policy. Generally, those that complain about things being unfair don't realize that the actual laws and actions are now unfair in the other way, and also do not care with no sympathy for the affected ones but only looking for there own wants.

If a white company wants to sabotage the Affirmative Action system then they'll do as you describe. Of course that's not the intent of Affirmative Action. The intent is to ensure the best qualified candidate gets the job, even if that candidate is Black. A Black person should not have to be 10 times more qualified than a White person to get the SAME job, but in practice, this is what I hear is happening and Affirmative Action policies make sure that the right fit for the job, apart from race, gets the job. You don't have to be hyper qualified to get a job that people make you feel you don't deserve because you are not white like everyone else working there!

If a racist company wants to spite Affirmative Action, then they will hire a bad token Black person who is not qualified and then say, see, Affirmative Action doesn't work. Meanwhile they won't say they passed up a more qualified Black person for an unqualified Black person to spite the system and make a bad name for it. Those type of racists probably do the most damage to a system like that because they deliberately go out of their way to find a bad candidate to undermine the system.

If it's followed in good-faith then it should be something that brings about social justice!

In the context of BLM, I can or could support a lot of the goals. but someone decided to make it about race instead of a more general thing. They(not sure how they are..) lump all caucasian together. if they wanted to have a generalized team goal the name would have been something unifying, not something divisive. They completely forget that half of us or more than half already stood for them and with them to save/rescue/help because it was the right thing to do and many would do it now.

I would say that as most of the protesters, like in Aurora county or in Washington DC are white protesters. So, allot of people are seeing BLM as a multi-racial issue dealing with police brutality and do not get caught up in semantics such as the name. It's the principle of it rather than the name. When there is a fire, your first and primary goal is to remove the flames and fire, rather than determine what fire truck department should have the honors of being the first one to start while the building is burning.

Police that break the law should be dealt with; period. and in a stronger way than others of the same crimes. I would not want witch hunts but for clear cases, the law should be applied regardless of gender or race. The cases of abuse to women and other races by any police or a public employee or by anyone should be lumped together to make the point about the actions. It should not be tolerated.

Of course. If this worked in principle and was enforced then BLM would not exist as it is today. However, in practice this is not the case.

Generally, US police are way better than in many other places, in some comparisons by a huge difference. I also believe that we should submit to our authorities if/when needed. Stop or I'll shoot means exactly that and is or was an expected and agreed upon response and action.

Enlighten us about other police forces elsewhere that are worst, beside Brazil.

I believe that the decline of US is somewhat described in a book The Fourth Turning, it is an interesting read. In addition and maybe more influential is the exact topics that this forum is famous for, gender relations. USA has that setup wrong (in my opinion) and it leads to a breaking of the success. I don't think race relations comes even close to either of those (gender relations and generation patterns) in overall importance.

Anyway, nice chatting w/ ya. I get your point, and NO I was not trying to be an ass, but I get exactly why you and probably some others could think that. This topic race relations, that similar to gender relations just does not work the way I wish it would. I was probably born too late and would have fit better in earlier times. We are not all the same, each person has strengths and weaknesses. Many of those follow along ethnic lines, but not always. Just like there is really a woman that can take down most men in a fight, but it is rare. Rather than fight to be equal we should praise each other's strengths and work together admitting the same to become more together and just drop all the jealousy. But, that is not reality.

I don't really believe in inherited debt, I do know of some cultures that do.

Thanks for clarifying your points. I have not read the Fourth Turning so I can't comment on that book. This has been a more productive exchange compared to the immaturity and disrespect that I have encountered on this thread. It's too bad not more people have your type of mentality so we can at least go somewhere in this type of thread.

 

[corrector]

But the protesters lost me when they were directing so much hate toward innocent police officers.

How so? Bad cops and the police unions that protects them where police departments cant even legally fire them does more damage to innocent cops than protesters, regardless.of race, can. Protests are reactive not picking fights. Bad cops do that.

 

[zekko]

How so? Bad cops and the police unions that protects them where police departments cant even legally fire them does more damage to innocent cops than protesters, regardless.of race, can. Protests are reactive not picking fights. Bad cops do that.

There certainly needs to be better ways to weed out bad cops. And protesting toward that end is fine. However, I have seen countless videos of random protesters screaming in the face of random cops at these protests (and that's not even including the cops who have been assaulted, pelted with bricks, or outright killed). These random cops did not kill George Floyd, there was no reason for them to be mistreated.

 

[corrector]

There certainly needs to be better ways to weed out bad cops. And protesting toward that end is fine. However, I have seen countless videos of random protesters screaming in the face of random cops at these protests (and that's not even including the cops who have been assaulted, pelted with bricks, or outright killed). These random cops did not kill George Floyd, there was no reason for them to be mistreated.

Not all BLM protest are like that. If you pick the worst.protests then I can choose the best ones. The protest in Aurora Texas had people just playing violins. The police teargassed and attacked them viciously. Also some police were bad actors in other protests, shooting people with rubber bullets im their eye so they go blind, randonly pepper spraying people, holding peaceful protesters in jail with no charges, etc...

 

[zekko]

Not all BLM protest are like that. If you pick the worst.protests then I can choose the best ones.

Fair enough, but I have no problem with the concept of people protesting. It's the hate filled, violent, and extreme edge of it that I object to, and it's all too common. In any case, BLM is a political organization. I cannot support it because:

A good deal of the money donated to them goes to support the Democratic party. I'm sure you're fine with that, but I am not. Not that I have anything against Democrats per se, I've voted for several in my life. The current version of the party, however, is too shrill and extreme for my taste. Small wonder the leaders of these big cities look the other way when violence occurs, they're funding their reelection campaigns.

I do not support feminism, which they do. Nor do I support the destruction of the nuclear family. Notice there is no mention of the word "father" in this statement from their site:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

I do not support the LGBTQ agenda. I don't think such people should be discriminated against, but I do not support them promoting that lifestyle.

I do not support abortion. It is a complicated issue, but funny how some people so outraged with coronavirus deaths are just fine with the trash heap of millions and millions of aborted fetuses.
"We deserve and thus we demand reproductive justice that gives us autonomy over our bodies and our identities"

I could go on, and I haven't even mentioned Marxism. The media and the cancel culture wants to push the idea that you have to support BLM or you will be labeled a racist and cancelled. I reject that idea on the face of it. Why should I feel obligated to support a political organization? Why are most sports leagues promoting a political organization?

 

[corrector]

Fair enough, but I have no problem with the concept of people protesting. It's the hate filled, violent, and extreme edge of it that I object to, and it's all too common. In any case, BLM is a political organization. I cannot support it because:

A good deal of the money donated to them goes to support the Democratic party. I'm sure you're fine with that, but I am not. Not that I have anything against Democrats per se, I've voted for several in my life. The current version of the party, however, is too shrill and extreme for my taste. Small wonder the leaders of these big cities look the other way when violence occurs, they're funding their reelection campaigns.

I do not support feminism, which they do. Nor do I support the destruction of the nuclear family. Notice there is no mention of the word "father" in this statement from their site:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

I do not support the LGBTQ agenda. I don't think such people should be discriminated against, but I do not support them promoting that lifestyle.

I do not support abortion. It is a complicated issue, but funny how some people so outraged with coronavirus deaths are just fine with the trash heap of millions and millions of aborted fetuses.
"We deserve and thus we demand reproductive justice that gives us autonomy over our bodies and our identities"

I could go on, and I haven't even mentioned Marxism. The media and the cancel culture wants to push the idea that you have to support BLM or you will be labeled a racist and cancelled. I reject that idea on the face of it. Why should I feel obligated to support a political organization? Why are most sports leagues promoting a political organization?

I'll give the floor to @EyeBRollin concerning this discussion.

I've started another thread in this section which also references this.

 

[Who Dares Win]

Fair enough, but I have no problem with the concept of people protesting. It's the hate filled, violent, and extreme edge of it that I object to, and it's all too common. In any case, BLM is a political organization. I cannot support it because:

A good deal of the money donated to them goes to support the Democratic party. I'm sure you're fine with that, but I am not. Not that I have anything against Democrats per se, I've voted for several in my life. The current version of the party, however, is too shrill and extreme for my taste. Small wonder the leaders of these big cities look the other way when violence occurs, they're funding their reelection campaigns.

I do not support feminism, which they do. Nor do I support the destruction of the nuclear family. Notice there is no mention of the word "father" in this statement from their site:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

I do not support the LGBTQ agenda. I don't think such people should be discriminated against, but I do not support them promoting that lifestyle.

I do not support abortion. It is a complicated issue, but funny how some people so outraged with coronavirus deaths are just fine with the trash heap of millions and millions of aborted fetuses.
"We deserve and thus we demand reproductive justice that gives us autonomy over our bodies and our identities"

I could go on, and I haven't even mentioned Marxism. The media and the cancel culture wants to push the idea that you have to support BLM or you will be labeled a racist and cancelled. I reject that idea on the face of it. Why should I feel obligated to support a political organization? Why are most sports leagues promoting a political organization?

Very well said.

 

[metalwater]

Fair enough, but I have no problem with the concept of people protesting. It's the hate filled, violent, and extreme edge of it that I object to, and it's all too common. In any case, BLM is a political organization. I cannot support it because:

A good deal of the money donated to them goes to support the Democratic party. I'm sure you're fine with that, but I am not. Not that I have anything against Democrats per se, I've voted for several in my life. The current version of the party, however, is too shrill and extreme for my taste. Small wonder the leaders of these big cities look the other way when violence occurs, they're funding their reelection campaigns.

I do not support feminism, which they do. Nor do I support the destruction of the nuclear family. Notice there is no mention of the word "father" in this statement from their site:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

I do not support the LGBTQ agenda. I don't think such people should be discriminated against, but I do not support them promoting that lifestyle.

I do not support abortion. It is a complicated issue, but funny how some people so outraged with coronavirus deaths are just fine with the trash heap of millions and millions of aborted fetuses.
"We deserve and thus we demand reproductive justice that gives us autonomy over our bodies and our identities"

I could go on, and I haven't even mentioned Marxism. The media and the cancel culture wants to push the idea that you have to support BLM or you will be labeled a racist and cancelled. I reject that idea on the face of it. Why should I feel obligated to support a political organization? Why are most sports leagues promoting a political organization?

Well said. This is the truth.

 

[corrector]

 

[metalwater]

Enlighten us about other police forces elsewhere that are worst, beside Brazil.

List of countries with annual rates and counts for killings by law enforcement officers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

sort by rate per 10m to understand the order.

Ideally the world leader... should be much closer to zero. However definitely not the worst, that does not make it ok.
As a wiki, might not be perfect, I have been in more than half of the places and if I think about how things are there it looks at least reasonable. Although, real research would find problems likely with every one of the numbers for some reason.

 

[Epicenter]

 

[Spaz]

I'll be brutally honest here, once upon a time, I was a great proponent of gun ownership, along with most of the hawks within my tribe, there's a reason for being so 20 years ago, I've had incursions witnin my tribal land from other tribes that has open support from govt troops and also big plantation companies that paid off some army general.

There's always been plenty of bloodshed, owing to our traditional way of life, everything from our dancing, spiritual beliefs, cultural festivals and even how we grew up was tied one way or the other towards glorifying war, it even made way into art - the tattoos on my body.

But as I travelled and viewed other cultures, specifically in Europe, Japan, Singapore and also in other places like Burma/Pakistan, I noticed a stark difference.

Which is why now I'm not a proponent for gun ownership, although I'm a tribal chief(inherited), I've done my best to curtail gun ownership amongst my people.

Fights, lawlessness, deaths has dramatically gone done.

But it was all done in conjunction with education, ownership of vast land, enrichment, etc.

Right now, I've about 500 tribal men who can easily access automatic weapons but it's kept under lock and key in an informal armory that's under a tribal elder, it's only opened for cultural significance or when we are under threat - this is purely as a deterrent.

But I do not allow men to walk around with guns, even traditional weaponry is being curtailed by me, however all these takes time.

What I now encouraging my people to do is take up arms through knowledge - therein lies true power, a constant power.

The power of the gun is fleeting, its changes from time to time.

 

[Spaz]

Here's a relevant question: would you permit your tribesmen to be sitting ducks for unfriendly neighboring tribes, by letting news circulate that your tribesmen weren't permitted to defend themselves, and would be punished for doing so? If so, they should find themselves a new chief.

Instead of asking this question, why don't you ask me how did I make the neighbouring tribe seize and desist further violence against me and mine?

You're asking the wrong kind of question.