Are you a slave, or a Free Man?

[Atom Smasher]

Too much dissection for me. Most guys here got the gist of what I have said. They know me and know the shorthand I use.

I hold that women have great difficulty thinking rationally and logically as their first and foremost way of processing is emotional. This is why they constantly act upon emotion first and then later rationalize their actions, often in ways that completely defy the original logic that should have been applied. When they have a man in their lives, they look to him for guidance and to some degree try to emulate his thought processes.

Man = Order
Women =Chaos

Women = Water (Formless, stormy, disorderly and unpredictable)
Men = Shoreline (Provider of shape and form, provider of limits, a container for water in order to give it form and tangibility)

In keeping with the water analogy, without the shoreline (men's authority and boundary setting), women dissipate into a thin layer on the ground, puddling in some areas and spread as thin as can be in others.

They cannot self-govern and cannot self-define. By nature they absolutely hate to make decisions and they by nature have almost zero concept of personal accountability. This is their natural bent. They can learn to adapt some of these traits, partially, over time. It takes the influence of the male for this to happen.

To quickly answer your question about parenthood, I believe that women excel at being the primary loving, empathetic parent and that men have much less natural ability in this area. Men do not put in as much effort to be a good parent because they lack that which the child needs in a mother, just as a single female parent will usually harm the child because she cannot provide the male role model that the child desperately needs.

But this points strays far away from my area of interest.

I love the huge differences between men and women, and my woman and I both celebrate those differences. Most men cannot grasp their masculine core and their God-given mandate to seize authority and create an ordered world, and walk around with the vague guilt and shame that has been drilled into both genders in the past 50 years of education and media influence.

I advise men to stop giving a flying F about being considered "sexist". Instead, just BE and watch your relationships normalize.

Men, just BE. Be what you are without apology and abandon these silly labels that are designed to keep you in your place.

No woman in my sphere consider me "sexist". They consider me manly and unashamed and therefore attractive on many levels.

 

[sosousage]

Right. Can I give you examples of how this doesn’t always play out?

Place I worked before:

Team of 6. 4 “yes men”, 1 indifferent and me, who regularly challenged management when I felt appropriate and often did it my way.

Prime “yes man” got heaped with praise and position and opportunities.

I got labelled a troublemaker and incurred often wrath and disdain of managers.

Prime yes man is the one who got the female acclaim.

I’m much happier being my own man and would physically throw up to take on the “yes man” role. However, I disagree that being a free man gets you the women.

I’ve said it many times, women go for the manipulator and narc who can obtain position by fair means or foul.

It has nothing to do with being your own man. It’s a hinderence if anything.

If I’d challenge the yes man group would round up on me. So I became somewhat the lowest in the group, despite having the biggest balls and having a DNGAF attitude.

Can someone please explain this?

As far as I can see, everything is secondary to social rank. If literally sucking off the boss got
you promoted, the girls would still be all over him.

social proof everything. in one of my schools teachers learned from some rumors that my social proof succ and they literally stopped taking me seriously and been trying to make me the bad one.

these fat teachers now 50+ ugly and frustrated with chit underpaid job wasting potential while im rockin it

some teachers are tumors to society my man

 

[GrowingPains]

You're getting bogged down in semantics, dude

This is a point that I've already recognized and in doing so, decided I'd let it be.

Yet here you guys are still commenting on it. Move on then. I have.

If anything, I think what we disagree on is word choice, which... Is not that big of a deal.

 

[Epic Days]

Atom, I like the gist of the post. Be your own man. Live according to your own values and aspirations. And although the primary goal is not this; women and like-minded people will attract to you. This is the way a man should live his life. I dig it. But I challenge you to generalize this a bit more. This is the way a person should live their life.

And in the same vein:


This part is sexist. I doubt the women on the forum, and some (unjaded and with minimal ego) men would agree with it. I propose re-phrasing to most people are not willing to think for themselves.

I find that people on SS like to make generalizing statements such as this when in reality, you can often apply much of what is claimed to both parties. Therefore it applies to people in general. Thinking is difficult. Thinking unique thoughts is even more so. Consider why there are so few thought leaders in various fields: it is hard work perhaps the situations we discuss here present a bias in the way of women being the ones that exhibit these complicated and undesirable traits - this is a male-dominated forum after all. But that does not inherently make them so.

Take SS for example. There are many men that act like indecisive, weak people in their posts about problems with women. That doesn't mean that men are indecisive and weak. It means that some men are indecisive and weak.

People in general have a tendency to want approval and to seek support in the things they do. This is not groupthink. This is human nature. Groupthink would be if everyone here agrees with the claim that women cannot think for themselves without first analyzing what they think individually and coming to their own conclusion.

Women are not evil. People can be evil.

Women are not complicated. People are complicated.

Women are not wrong for leveraging their 'goods'. People will do this simply because people seek power grabs - it is human nature. War, racism, inequal wealth distribution, gender inequalities... Can often be boiled down to one thing: Power.

As a man of science, I suspect this may resonate with you: There have to be equal and opposite forces in the universe to achieve equilibrium. Someone has to be on the negative side if there is a positive side. It is up to you which side you end up on. Put in the energy to get to the other side.

Power grabbing will lead to a group exhibiting 'bad' (or rather unfavorable for the opposing group) traits. But these traits are not inherent to the group, they are inherent to the human. And that group is human.

There is so much of the feminine imperative in that, that it’s scary.

 

[GrowingPains]

There is so much of the feminine imperative in that, that it’s scary.

Unless you have a new viewpoint to offer and you actually understand my point, this convo is dead, my g. If you do, let it rain.

Just so we're all on the same page: https://therationalmale.com/category/the-feminine-imperative/

 

[user43770]

I understand the concept. "Build it and they will come". I disagree with it.

I would argue that is more of a form of slavery, and is what the average guy does to begin with.

Next level

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

The abstraction of 'equality' has done a lot of damage. All revolutionary thought revolves on it, whether Marxism, radical democracy/ populism, or feminism.

The reality is hierarchy. Everywhere the world is ordered a certain way, human culture is exemplary of this ordering. Everything is what it is, and not another thing, and hence the need for ordering and organization. There is no one single substratum in which everything consists, or some generic human nature to be molded from birth.

Not to recognize the primary polarities of feminine and masculine goes against all experience... no matter what your logic says. And then there are different forms of power. The problem today is the concept of power has been largely politicized... has negative connotations, which has led to all manner of social confusion. The power of culture is perfectly legitimate. It is not ideological, it does not revolve around the 'Truth', but centers instead around beauty, order, unity, and the good life. It's these transcendental ideas that once counter-balanced 'truth' that have been lost~

 

[Epic Days]

Unless you have a new viewpoint to offer and you actually understand my point, this convo is dead, my g. If you do, let it rain.

Just so we're all on the same page: https://therationalmale.com/category/the-feminine-imperative/

There’s a bit more to it. I’ve read it numerous times. When a man no longer has his programming from birth on and beyond, he has a different way of thinking.

When it reads like the media, that’s programming or a leftist trying to reconcile two systems of thought patterns. OR a man trying to hang onto part of his old hopes and dreams given to him by the imperative and somehow combine them.

You told Atom Smasher how he should have written it. It was pretty much perfect the way it was. Trying to make it more palatable for YOUR sensibilities is a pretty suppressive act.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

I understand the concept. "Build it and they will come". I disagree with it.

I would argue that is more of a form of slavery, and is what the average guy does to begin with.

There is a world of difference between virtue [vir-tue, virility, manliness], and conforming to the expectations of a bourgeois mediocre middle-class order.

 

[GrowingPains]

The abstraction of 'equality' has done a lot of damage. All revolutionary thought revolves on it, whether Marxism, radical democracy/ populism, or feminism.

The reality is hierarchy. Everywhere the world is ordered a certain way, human culture is exemplary of this ordering. Everything is what it is, and not another thing, and hence the need for ordering and organization. There is no one single substratum in which everything consists, or some generic human nature to be molded from birth.

Not to recognize the primary polarities of feminine and masculine goes against all experience... no matter what your logic says. And then there are different forms of power. The problem today is the concept of power has been largely politicized... has negative connotations, which has led to all manner of social confusion. The power of culture is perfectly legitimate. It is not ideological, it does not revolve around the 'Truth', but centers instead around beauty, order, unity, and the good life. It's these transcendental ideas that once counter-balanced 'truth' that have been lost~

I don't believe I said anything that contradicts this.

When it reads like the media, that’s programming.

Reads like the media... My view of what's going on here is that I made a statement in disagreeance with Atom's statement which happened to be about the nature of women. A disagreement about the nature of women tends to send people up in arms on SS (how could any MAN on SOSUAVE be wrong about WOMEN??). So this leads to emotions and emotions lead to not being able to understand viewpoints. I still believe the fundamental argument of what I was saying to be true. After some time, others, even Atom (although not explicitly), have agreed with it. So what's left to be discussed..?

I said nothing that supports the feminine imperative. Only about human nature and the capability of the individual. I didn't say anything that empowering of either gender (to cover my ass: that was not my intent if I did). So I couldn't be supporting anyone's 'imperative'. Notice that I agree with much of what has been said.

So idk why we're still on this. So with that being said.. I'm out. End of discussion para mi.

 

[ubercat]

I believe AS has chosen a Noble Path however I do wonder about it's general applicability. Most people don't have the deep reservoirs of habit Will Power resilience and understanding the such a journey takes.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Why is it that every time some random dude finally "figures out" the matrix, (e.g. he gets a girlfriend) he feels the need to post epic threads that suggest he's discovered the secrets of alchemy?

You think you're free?

Stop paying taxes and see what happens.

Try cutting somebody's hair without getting permission from your overlords.

Try to set up a street stall selling hot dogs without permission.

Trying setting up a booth in a public square or on a street corner, WITHOUT a permit, and proclaim the benefits of masculinity, or heterosexual love, or white pride.

How about refusing to bake cakes for gay weddings?

See about your freedom them.

Try to "create your own reality" then.

You're "freedom" will be locked up in a heartbeat.

This matrix is multiple layers thick.

The "feminine imperative" is a very shallow level idea that is nested within multiple layers of evil.

The feminine imperative ONLY EXISTS within a fiat reserve system protected by EVIL MASCULINE POWER.

our world is run by evil, satanic pedophiles that are consciously destroying all that is good.

But somebody gets engages and wants to preach Jesus...

 

[Spaz]

Why is it that every time some random dude finally "figures out" the matrix, (e.g. he gets a girlfriend) he feels the need to post epic threads that suggest he's discovered the secrets of alchemy?

You think you're free?

Stop paying taxes and see what happens.

Try cutting somebody's hair without getting permission from your overlords.

Try to set up a street stall selling hot dogs without permission.

Trying setting up a booth in a public square or on a street corner, WITHOUT a permit, and proclaim the benefits of masculinity, or heterosexual love, or white pride.

How about refusing to bake cakes for gay weddings?

See about your freedom them.

Try to "create your own reality" then.

You're "freedom" will be locked up in a heartbeat.

This matrix is multiple layers thick.

The "feminine imperative" is a very shallow level idea that is nested within multiple layers of evil.

The feminine imperative ONLY EXISTS within a fiat reserve system protected by EVIL MASCULINE POWER.

our world is run by evil, satanic pedophiles that are consciously destroying all that is good.

But somebody gets engages and wants to preach Jesus...

Further evidence that intellectuals such as you have a hard time differentiating shades of emotions.

Everything is NOT colored as black and white.

Freedom is also about being responsible.

Freedom of speech does not mean you can incite people to go on a murderous spree, that's premeditated murder.

Freedom to choose ur own lunch pack does not mean you can enter any shop and take food without paying, that's theft.

Freedom to have sexual relationship with women of ur choice does not mean you can go out, grab her and then fvck her at the side of the road, that's rape.

Atom offered an idea or solution to free oneself from the chains that bind men within the feminine imperative.

It's freedom through taking charge of ur own destiny rather then being guided by the feminine imperative where its an illusion of freedom where men are slaves living in misery, sickness, madness, anger, rage, depression and finally death.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Freedom of speech does not mean you can incite people to go on a murderous spree, that's premeditated murder.

Straw man. Nothing in my post suggest recommending murder. Only publicly expressing an opinion.

Freedom to choose ur own lunch pack does not mean you can enter any shop and take food without paying, that's theft.

Straw man. I never said anything about stealing. I only suggested about the freedom to SELL something to a voluntarily paying customer. Nothing about that has anything to do with stealing.

You are PURPOSELY misconstruing my argument so it's easier for you to argue with.

Atom offered an idea or solution to free oneself from the chains that bind men within the feminine imperative.

Atom asked if we were SLAVES or if we were FREE.

He certainly implied that the ONLY difference between being a slave and being free was how one treated the "feminine imperative."

My reply was simply a reminder that they are SEVERAL LAYERS of freedom and slavery.

But you needed to equate that with THEFT AND MURDER in order to counter my point.

I would also suggest that plenty of MGTOW types would say THEIR idea of freedom is much more desirable than getting married.

And I would also suggest that their arguments are JUST AS COMPELLING as Atom's.

 

[Spaz]

Straw man. Nothing in my post suggest recommending murder. Only publicly expressing an opinion.


Straw man. I never said anything about stealing. I only suggested about the freedom to SELL something to a voluntarily paying customer. Nothing about that has anything to do with stealing.

You are PURPOSELY misconstruing my argument so it's easier for you to argue with.


Atom asked if we were SLAVES or if we were FREE.

He certainly implied that the ONLY difference between being a slave and being free was how one treated the "feminine imperative."

My reply was simply a reminder that they are SEVERAL LAYERS of freedom and slavery.

But you needed to equate that with THEFT AND MURDER in order to counter my point.

I would also suggest that plenty of MGTOW types would say THEIR idea of freedom is much more desirable than getting married.

And I would also suggest that their arguments are JUST AS COMPELLING as Atom's.

Freedom is an emotion.

Those examples I listed in my above post is different shades of that emotion so that it's easier for you to memorise it and store it in ur rational brain functions for future use.

It's not a strawman nor a strawberry, it's just facts of several examples within a singular emotion called freedom.

 

[Epic Days]

Atom asked if we were SLAVES or if we were FREE.

He certainly implied that the ONLY difference between being a slave and being free was how one treated the "feminine imperative."

That’s what you got from it? That wasn’t what it was even about. Look deeper. That’s as shallow as Guru in a thread I just left. Surface understanding of life.

 

[Atom Smasher]

The exposure of habits of thinking and internal paradigms that this thread has drawn out is pretty fascinating. There are some who get it (the advanced thinkers), some who have a hint that there is something here for them (the thinkers and intuitives who are well on their way) and finally, the nay-sayers (who are not ready to escape their current comfortable living quarters).

Most of us here are getting overly philosophical and abstract about the subject matter in my view.

This is a site that is about getting our relationships with woman handled, first and foremost, and so I write with that overarching fact in mind. Secondarily (but a very close second), it's about self-improvement and living an effective, successful life.

Let's get back to the basics. How did I couch the concept of freedom vs. slavery? Freedom from what?

Freedom from your current story and your history. Both of these are shackles that hold us back from relating well with women and often, succeeding in life.

Your current story consists of the beliefs you hold about yourself, about women, and about your ability to change and succeed. It's your self-definition. Your history is where you came from, the events that happened in your life which helped to form your current story.

Freedom is understanding that both your story and your history are nothing more than a pile of beliefs and memories that together tell you who you are, and what you can and cannot do in life. I have seen amusing videos of cats where someone makes a box around the cat out of tape on the carpet. The cat is inside the tape box, and it thinks it cannot walk over the artificial border that it sees, so it sniffs at the border and walks around its perimeter and just "knows" that it cannot step over the border and escape the box. The reality of course is that it's nothing more than a visual representation of a box that can be easily stepped over.

I think of horses in the old westerns that are trained from birth that a little insignificant rope can hold them where they are. The principle works similarly with elephants. You can tie up and restrain a baby elephant with a small rope, and as the elephant grows up it "knows" it can't escape and do what it wants because that's what its history taught it as a baby. In reality, the adult elephant could snap that rope like a thread and walk away.

What I did about 10 years ago was ripped up my current story about myself and my history, declared them null and void, and created a new reality based on what I wanted it to be. It started with my relationships with women. I was completely unattractive to them, so I decided that the first practical way to rip up my story and history was to do the opposite of what I had always been doing (trying to please them). I did a 180, called them to task for their misbehavior and bratty words, just to see what would happen.

To my surprise, more and more attractive women started giving me inviting signals over the years. I eventually decided to apply this new technique of shaping my reality to other aspects of life.

It boils down to utter simplicity: Act AS IF. Throw all excuses out the window and act as if you are the King of your world.

As Shakespeare said, "Assume a virtue if you have it not". Yes, guys, it's that simple.

An example apart from the subject of women might be a desire to learn a new skill. We often shy away from this, or choose what we want to learn very carefully, because our belief about ourselves might be that it will take too long, we probably won't be very good at it, we're not ready to start, whatever the excuses might be. Instead, we can erase that "story" we tell ourselves and just start.

Massive
Imperfect
Action

is my motto . MIA. Acting imperfectly but consistently reaps massive success.

Getting back to women, it's a good idea to start there as it is easily quantifiable. Most of us think we have to impress women. Most of us alter our behavior in order to get them to like us. That's the monkey dance that I despise so greatly. It's the dance I've done for most of my life. Now they dance for me, simply because I reshaped my reality by flipping the script inside my own head.

Women sense when you detach from them and when you judge them. A man who judges them is usually extremely intriguing to them. They are used to men sucking up to them all day long. When a guy comes along who has no interest in that (because he has reset his mind to be a man of abundance even thought he has nothing), she can't help but be intrigued and open.

Most of us find that women are closed and that we need to open them up. Monkey dance. By detaching and becoming the King of my world, first in my head only, I flipped the script and they work to open me up. By the way, this all occurred years ago. It has nothing to do with my current girl except to say that she is the reward I reaped by changing who I am from the inside out.

You, as a man, are the authority and rule-creator in this world. Not women. Men! Women know this instinctively and crave to escape their need to take on masculine traits because there are no authoritative men around whom they can look up to and submit to.

Some of you guys have been triggered into hand-wringing cries of "How dare Atom Smasher say he is free?! This is an outrage!"

That is sad to see, as it shows how deep down the rabbit hole those guys live. Others get it and are inspired by my experience and are able to understand that they can take some of these principles and experiment with them for themselves.

As for me, I'm just a guy who has been starving and destitute for most of his life when it comes to women. I eventually found my way into a banquet hall, and decided to tell you guys how I did it. My hope is that a few will eventually make it to the banquet. The ones whose hunger eclipses the safety of their cell and shackles will dine here. The ones who are angered are the ones whose shackles and self-imposed limitations will not be ready to dine freely for some time.

Your story and your history can be spirit killers. Turn your back on them and act as if. Start with your dealings with women and then expand to all aspects of life. How do you start with your dealings with women? Retire your monkey dancing shoes and detach. Judge them and call them out on their bad behavior. You can always dial that back to what's right for you once you start training the women around you that you require respect. You will find that higher quality women will start looking at you very differently.

Society is a fearsome, abusive mother to so many men today. The threat of mommy's punishment and rejection keeps so many men in-line in this day and age. Most men live life on the defensive, especially as pertains to women.

Go on the offensive, men. Create a world that you're comfortable in and proud of. Realize that the abusive societal mother who shames you year after year into being puzzled by women has no teeth at all if you simply turn your back on her and start forging your own path. You guys who rail against doing this are just like feminists who really know deep down that they believe lies. "But, Atom Smasher, this...", and "But, Atom Smasher, that..."... The cries of the inmates.

Freedom is getting your issues with women handled. Freedom is the pursuit of success (not the attainment, but the steady pursuit).

Is there nothing here that you can use for your betterment? Then move on. If there is something here, try it and see what you can do with it. Philosophical discussions about it all are pretty much circular time-wasters.

Acta, non verba...

Or, move on and read about how to impress women. Your choice.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Even if a man holds a gun to your head and demands your wallet, you get to choose. He can attempt to take it forcibly, in which case you have an new set of choices before you. Etc.

Valid point.

Essentially the point made by Vickor Frankl, "Man's Search for Meaning."

However, society does exist in a hierarchy, and some are much higher up than others, and have much more influence on the rules the rest of us must follow.

You may own your choices, but others are the ones who determine your options within which you must choose.

Most would rather not have to choose between handing over your cash or getting shot.

But that sounds like a endless philosophical argument.

That’s what you got from it? That wasn’t what it was even about. Look deeper.

I understand what the post was about. Don't seek approval, require approval. Call out women, etc. I get it.

Even if you don't have social proof, you can imagine it strongly enough and POOF, social proof.

His closing argument was either agreeing with him, as a free man, or continue to seek approval, as a slave.

Yes, and by releasing oneself from the validation and approval from women, one is SLIGHTLY more free, and SLIGHTLY less a slave.

My point was that there is a sh*tton more external elements that are attempting to enslave us, that are beyond our control, that hallucinating your own reality will only go so far.

I reiterate my point that the MGTOW argument is JUST AS VALID. Many make the SAME argument, that by releasing themselves from ANY DESIRE from woman, they are FREE and no longer SLAVES.

However, these arguments hinge too heavily on words that can easily be re-defined at will to main one's frame.

To wit:

It's not a strawman nor a strawberry, it's just facts of several examples within a singular emotion called freedom.

I don't even know what that sentence means.

 

[Epic Days]

I understand what the post was about. Don't seek approval, require approval. Call out women, etc. I get it.

That’s not what the post was about. LOL

It’s about creating one’s own reality and how it works and influences others. How creating a dominant reality when it comes to women affects women and how it influences and supports their inherent nature. Recreating oneself from the inside-out.

Everything you are talking about is outside yourself.
Is your ability to self examine that stunted?

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

That’s not what the post was about. LOL

It’s about creating one’s own reality and how it works and influences others. How creating a dominant reality when it comes to women affects women and how it influences and supports their inherent nature. Recreating oneself from the inside-out.

Everything you are talking about is outside yourself.
Is your ability to self examine that stunted?

I don't quite follow your logic. Perhaps I am too stunted to self examine and understand your meaning.

What you speak about sounds like a means to an end, to get women to follow you rather than you following women.

Which sounds like my summary of the post.

Perhaps you think the means is more important than the ends, which is to create social proof via imagination, which is ostensibly to get women to become feminine around you?

It sounds very much like the same thing.

How does one simply "create one's own reality" when one doesn't have social proof?

For example, how would a pimply guy working at Taco Bell create enough inner reality to create femininity in highly sought after 9's and 10's?

Is there ZERO connection between one's ability to formulate one's inner reality and one's outer reality?

To what extent can one alter one's outer reality by augmenting one's inner reality?

Are there time considerations? Weeks? Months? Years?

If so, what is the difference then between old school self improvement (approach tons of girls, slowly improve social skills, etc. slowly gain confidence to the point one can hard qualify women, etc.) and the inner reality generation method?

Perhaps instead of just insulting me because I don't "get it," why not explain it so a dumb guy like me can get it?