Am I working out properly? Should I gain more weight.

[Audiophile]

Hey guys, I'm 100% new to working out, and started doing the Stronglifts 5x5 program. I do 20 minutes of moderate cardio after each workout, but I'm wondering if I need to gain more weight.

I don't look skinny at all, I have a more skinnyfat look. I am currently 5'9", and weigh 150lb. I look kind of chubby, but when I was reading some guides to weight lifting, a lot of people who were in the 5'8" area of height kept saying to get their weight up to 80kg, is that when I am making better progress?

Thanks for any questions answered.

 

[ATP]

You progress (strength wise) at all levels, body weight doens't matter for progress but you do gain a lot of strength while bulking, especially if you're bulking heavy (at the cost of appearance).

You shouldn't start with a program that consist of 5x5 with dangerous exercises like squats, deadlift and bench presses. They are very complex exercises and it takes TIME to master them. Learn their form for a while with lighter weights and have an instructor check your form.

 

[Cure]

whats your diet like?
how much weight have you gained so far/how long have you been on the program for?

As much information as possible will make it easier for people to answer your questions.

Cure.

 

[CarlitosWay]

You progress (strength wise) at all levels, body weight doens't matter for progress but you do gain a lot of strength while bulking, especially if you're bulking heavy (at the cost of appearance).

You shouldn't start with a program that consist of 5x5 with dangerous exercises like squats, deadlift and bench presses. They are very complex exercises and it takes TIME to master them. Learn their form for a while with lighter weights and have an instructor check your form.

EXACTLY...

I would say start an upper/lower body split...using machines/isolation exercises while simultaneously learning to master the complex movements (squat,deadlift, benchrpess)

after a bit I'd recommend the op do a simple upper/lower body split ala Joe Defranco's Westside for skinny bastards http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles.html (still using machines here or there)

or a bodybuilding split. BODYBUILDING BIBLE http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_onl...uilding/the_bodybuilding_bible_free_of_charge

People new to training are going to literally respond to any program given to them. Why not start off with what the biggest/strongest guys do? splits!

Many are going to say no don't listen to him do rippetoe do stronglifts..blah blah blah.....Look at mehdi he has been lifting on his 5X5 program for over 10 years and his body/lifts are nothing impressive.

I could take twins new to training with the same training intensity/genetics/diets throw one on say a dorian yates split with machines/compound/isolation movements have him stronger/bigger/more aesthetic in a year then his own brother who followed say rippetoe/strong lifts to a T.

 

[CaptainJ]

EXACTLY...

I would say start an upper/lower body split...using machines/isolation exercises while simultaneously learning to master the complex movements (squat,deadlift, benchrpess)

after a bit I'd recommend the op do a simple upper/lower body split ala Joe Defranco's Westside for skinny bastards http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles.html (still using machines here or there)

or a bodybuilding split. BODYBUILDING BIBLE http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_onl...uilding/the_bodybuilding_bible_free_of_charge

People new to training are going to literally respond to any program given to them. Why not start off with what the biggest/strongest guys do? splits!

Many are going to say no don't listen to him do rippetoe do stronglifts..blah blah blah.....Look at mehdi he has been lifting on his 5X5 program for over 10 years and his body/lifts are nothing impressive.

I could take twins new to training with the same training intensity/genetics/diets throw one on say a dorian yates split with machines/compound/isolation movements have him stronger/bigger/more aesthetic in a year then his own brother who followed say rippetoe/strong lifts to a T.

Why the hell would you put a Beginner on the same program as the "biggest/strongest guys"? You realise that they have their programs catered to the stage of their strength and their weightlifting experience. Eg you don't put a beginner on Smolov, just because the biggest dude is doing it. So that argument of yours falls down.

He needs to focus on the compound movements, and doing isolation exercises and machines will not only take the focus away but hamper his progress. There's only one way to get better at squatting, and that is to squat.

Also in regards to your criticism of Mehdi it's not the messenger but the message that is important. Mehdi has confessed to training badly and improper for most of those 10 years, leading to injury. You can't judge his progress based on his mistakes.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Why the hell would you put a Beginner on the same program as the "biggest/strongest guys"? You realise that they have their programs catered to the stage of their strength and their weightlifting experience. Eg you don't put a beginner on Smolov, just because the biggest dude is doing it. So that argument of yours falls down.

He needs to focus on the compound movements, and doing isolation exercises and machines will not only take the focus away but hamper his progress. There's only one way to get better at squatting, and that is to squat.

Also in regards to your criticism of Mehdi it's not the messenger but the message that is important. Mehdi has confessed to training badly and improper for most of those 10 years, leading to injury. You can't judge his progress based on his mistakes.

This kid needs to add as much muscle as possible while keeping it balanced. Guess which mother****ers go from point a to point be the absolute fastest? Natural bodybuilders and geared bodybuilders. Natty bodybuilders train the exact same way as the geared ones except most the time with less volume and not as big loads. Recovery is a bit different to, Yet the exercise setup/execution/rep schemes. Stay pretty much the same.

So why not have a beginner train like a natty bodybuilder from the get go if size is the primary goal and strength becomes a side effect ?

A bigger muscle is more capable of being a stronger muscle and vice versa. So training both sides of the spectrum are necessary. Heavy when necessary and going for the pump is essential for some one trying gain a lot of size.

Hate people throwing around 5X5 stronglifts and starting strength as if they're holy grails, ignoring the fact that a lot of rank beginners also started on splits utilizing machines/compound movements/isolation exercises and actually standing out as some one who lifts seriously a lot quicker.

 

[CarlitosWay]

A person's body must adapt to weight training over time. This is known as training the central nervous system. A boxer cannot simply jump in the ring and execute combinations like the pros, so why would we throw someone in the gym and tell them to lift like a pro? This guy needs to start out on maybe a 3 day or 4 day basic split, training one muscle group per week.

Easing into a workout will allow the body to adapt to basic training movement and form whilst gaining some strength... When the body adapts to this program it is then ready for a routine switch possibly to something more challenging and something that includes being in the gym more days in a week...

Instead of arguing over something that can be answered through research
I will provide the op with a great website where you will find absolutely EVERYTHING you need to know about training... there is a search button and a forum much like this site... read up guys its great for mind development...

Site: www.muscleandstrength.com

-cam

Sigh why why oh why do people make this **** more complex then it should be. Most people shouldn't even be talking about CNS this and that. He's a ****in' newbie. He should at the minimum be hitting his muscles hard at least around twice a week. Not eating like a pigeon and just looking to improve in rep ranges he feels works for him. Some do fine 6-8, others 12-15. He just needs to get out there, train and talk to actual lifters in the gym.

who knows this kid could have the recovery/strength/muscle building attributes of a genetically gifted person for all we know. Yet he needs to find all this out HIMSELF. This is why I would rather see some one follow what most of the bodybuilders are doing and scale it back some if it's to much. Is that to hard to understand?

 

[CarlitosWay]

bodybuilding programs aren't complicated 2-3 exercises per body part, muscle pairings hit every session (compound/ isolation/machine work). ramped sets up to 1-2 all out sets for 6-15 reps

Then after years of doing this they can split it up more to focus on glaring weakness in the physique.

Alright whatever it won't be my fault if after doing rippetoes he ends up with just big ass legs and an unbalanced upper body....

 

[Jitterbug]

Mehdi's lifts are unimpressive because he does 5x5 without knowing what that program was actually designed for. Bill Starr created 5x5 for gym teachers to show kids how to work out. It's meant to be simple enough for the clueless teachers to train the kids, not meant to be effective.

An effective compound lift routine for beginners is different. It has fewer sets and higher reps for certain things. Take people from a local gym in my city: http://ptcfrankston.com - these guys train compound lifts all the time and have crazy results. Most of them have only been training for 2 years max (that's how long the gym has been opened). Nearly 50 lifters DLing over 200kg.

Talk about imbalance... I've heard of so many people complaining about weak back, weak legs, weak hips... NEVER weak chest.

When you're a beginner, you don't train like a pro. That goes in any field, not just weightlifting. Even the pros are sticking to basics. Have a read about the pros in this field and educate yourself, CarlitosWay. You have great enthusiasm but are seriously misleading yourself.

 

[ATP]

I definately agree that compounds are key to improving in general strength and size the sad thing is that the compounds are also among the most dangerous exercises to perform and it takes a while to learn to do them properly. Lifting compounds with lacking form will end you up in two places, plateaus and injuries. Going as low as 5 reps when you got no ****ing clue what to do is really bad and a setup for injuries later!

If you look at most of the people in the gyms almost no one is able to do them properly. I see bench presses with elbows out or bouncing weights, squats with knees in front of toes, pointing inward or lifting with back (It's a squat not a ****ing good morning), deadlifts while staring into the ground or bar too far out , bent over rows with hanging weights, etc...

Lifting is about having long term goals and slowly reaching them. IMO it is worthless to discuss how he should be lifting. The first month should be about learning the compound exercises to set him up for GOOD muscle gains once he got the basics down. Slapping on weights while having good technique and not lifting with ego will yeild miles better results in the long run than rushing into the gym with no clue to lift the right lifts and slapping on weights.

Injuries is not something you think of when you are just starting out, why would you? You are feeling fine and it's not fun not to lift heavy. But people in general fail to realize that safety comes first, ALWAYS. Without safety you can't lift ****. Something as simple as an injured back and shoulder means that you'll be completely immobilized in the gym.

So to the OP. Go to the gym. Ask the instructor to help you learn the form on the bench press, deadlift, military press, squat, bent over rows and stiff leg deadlifts. When you got the form down you can start adding weight and most of the time you won't know what the term "plateaue" means ^^

 

[Jitterbug]

I definately agree that compounds are key to improving in general strength and size the sad thing is that the compounds are also among the most dangerous exercises to perform and it takes a while to learn to do them properly. Lifting compounds with lacking form will end you up in two places, plateaus and injuries.

Any exercise that makes you strong and fit will be risky and can cause injuries. I challenge you to name one exception.

Same with anything worth having in life: you have to work hard and risk yourself to get it.

I agree with the rest of your post though. You gotta nail the forms first. And btw they're not hard. It's just that most guys don't pay any attention and are too eager to pack on more weight and cheat on form to achieve that.

 

[ATP]

Yes, all the effective exercises is generally pretty dangerous but it is downright stupid to take extra unnecessary risks. When an exercise span more than one joint it gets more complex. Most people can barbell curl without much instruction but most people can't squat in the right form right off the bat. I kinda like to compare lifting to learning to drive. Driving a car isn't "hard" either but there are a lot of small things you need to learn first before you get a license and can drive on your own. Switching gears, looking at the speed meter and signaling becomes second nature after a while buy a beginner might have issues with it.

Squatting for example you need to think of a lot of different things. We need to flex the core, arc the back, make sure we have the weight not set on heels or toes but in the middle, make sure the knees don't go forward during the lift. Make sure we don't good morning up the weight and thereby take focus off the legs... a lot of small things which seem very easy once you have trained a while but the people I've instructed have insisted on doing the damn same mistake over and over until I smack some sense into them. The problem is generally that they THINK their form is good when it actually isn't.

 

[CaptainJ]

Yes, all the effective exercises is generally pretty dangerous but it is downright stupid to take extra unnecessary risks. When an exercise span more than one joint it gets more complex. Most people can barbell curl without much instruction but most people can't squat in the right form right off the bat. I kinda like to compare lifting to learning to drive. Driving a car isn't "hard" either but there are a lot of small things you need to learn first before you get a license and can drive on your own. Switching gears, looking at the speed meter and signaling becomes second nature after a while buy a beginner might have issues with it.

Squatting for example you need to think of a lot of different things. We need to flex the core, arc the back, make sure we have the weight not set on heels or toes but in the middle, make sure the knees don't go forward during the lift. Make sure we don't good morning up the weight and thereby take focus off the legs... a lot of small things which seem very easy once you have trained a while but the people I've instructed have insisted on doing the damn same mistake over and over until I smack some sense into them. The problem is generally that they THINK their form is good when it actually isn't.

Your argument of not letting a begginner do compound lifts is like saying "Stay away from girls, you might get rejected". There's only one way to learn, and that's by doing the lifts a lot, whilst focussing on improving form. Don't hide from your problems. If you do Rippetoe's or another compound beginner routine, then you WILL BE FORCED to focus on nailing technique, as it is imperative to the program.

 

[ATP]

Your argument of not letting a begginner do compound lifts is like saying "Stay away from girls, you might get rejected". There's only one way to learn, and that's by doing the lifts a lot, whilst focussing on improving form. Don't hide from your problems. If you do Rippetoe's or another compound beginner routine, then you WILL BE FORCED to focus on nailing technique, as it is imperative to the program.

We can agree on that you should do the lifts a lot. BUT...

...you don't put a beginner on a routine with 5 rep sets on the basic exercises. When I started training MAX-OT was the craze and everyone told me to do that because it was the best. 4-6 repetitions in general. If you think you can learn proper form with such low repetitions then you're deluding yourself.

So to the OP. Go to the gym. Ask the instructor to help you learn the form on the bench press, deadlift, military press, squat, bent over rows and stiff leg deadlifts. When you got the form down you can start adding weight and most of the time you won't know what the term "plateaue" means ^^

 

[Drum&Bass]

so funny to see you all arguing which is good, the most relevant (and exciting) discussions/information comes from arguing back and forth so I condone it....

but I will say this...You are all right, I havent seen one post in this thread that is incorrect.

The only thing that separates everyones answer from being the better choice is...The individual.

so unless any of you have seen the OP's performance, technique and observe the effects it has on his body.

NONE OF YOU have any idea what will be best for the OP.

All you can do is give advice, or your perspective on it, hope the OP listens and experiments with the advice you give him and then figures out what works best for himself.

 

[ATP]

Text...

That's a fair assessment m8.

 

[CarlitosWay]

This is exactly the kind of thing a guy at his level needs to avoid.


Years? Or you could just spend one year getting your big lifts up and do some beach work afterward if you still want.



Maybe unbalanced compared to the typical Popeye bench monkey with pencil legs who curls more than he squats. And again, if he wants to do beach work later that's fine, but you don't put the roof on the house before you lay the foundation.

This is exactly the kind of thing a guy at his level needs to avoid.



Years? Or you could just spend one year getting your big lifts up and do some beach work afterward if you still want.



Maybe unbalanced compared to the typical Popeye bench monkey with pencil legs who curls more than he squats. And again, if he wants to do beach work later that's fine, but you don't put the roof on the house before you lay the foundation.

lol@beach work...My guys and me we lift with great ****in' intensity. Doesn't matter if were doing rack deadlifts, machine curls, squats, machine squats/leg press whatever. WE JUST BRING IT. It doesn't matter if he does rippetoe or what I say...if he doesn't bring the required intensity/hard work.

It'll take him weeks upon weeks to get form some what pat down. Hell I know people who even after years of lifting still seem to not be able to squat, bench press or dead lift correctly. He should be in the gym a minimum 4-5 days a week. Learning proper squats/front, deadlifts/rack deadlifts, incline barbell bench press and hitting machines for accessory/isolation exercises.

No but you want to think of the body as one whole infrastructure that needs to be strengthened with the required maximal tension and attention to every muscle and add size through excess calories day in day out.

I'm not trying bash or insult any ones experience and training choices/methodology. Ultimately it's up to the op what he wants. If he just wants to get strong and get some added size he could train like a power lifter/rippetoes/. If he wants to get big, strong and an aesthetic/balanced body he must train like a natural BODYBUILDER.

 

[mrRuckus]

Hmmm listen to anonymous internet 20 year with "g-spot" for his location, or listen to guys like iron addict, rippetoe, madcow and all the freakishly huge professional bodybuilders on the doggcrapp message board who all say that newbies should focus on gaining strength because at that level strength IS size.

What a toughie.

It's like debating whether to listen to your dentist or your 5 year old brother when you have a toothache.


You start the basic lifts with just the bar. If you cripple yourself trying to squat just the bar and adding 10 lbs per workout for a while then you have some pretty big issues that suicide is probably needed to solve. 14 year olds learn to squat and deadlift.

Who the hell said to throw 200 lbs on the bar and then "good luck learning correct form?"

Also in regards to your criticism of Mehdi it's not the messenger but the message that is important. Mehdi has confessed to training badly and improper for most of those 10 years, leading to injury. You can't judge his progress based on his mistakes.

Most of the top trainers say this stuff. They learned everything the hard way before information was readily available on the internet.

They are trying to save us the aggravation of wasting time with bodybuilder routines like Arnold's and other crazy crap people of their day did to try to emulate those guys. Someone 150 lbs doing a bodybuilding routine is silly. His entire body is a weak point.

Most people simply aren't volume responders. The ones who are aren't posting on msgboards asking for help.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Hmmm listen to anonymous internet 20 year with "g-spot" for his location, or listen to guys like iron addict, rippetoe, madcow and all the freakishly huge professional bodybuilders on the doggcrapp message board who all say that newbies should focus on gaining strength because at that level strength IS size.

Hmmm very hilarious....anyways you seem to imply I was insinuating strength is not part of the equation ? I believe it is to, only part of it though. Yet to be ignorant and say you can't do this or can't do that with a newbie is ridiculous, especially when no one here knows this kid and what he's capable of.

funny part is I listen to a lot of advice from Dante Trudel, Dusty Hanshaw, Inhuman, Skip(love inhuman smith CGBP's) and I'm always having discussions with some serious lifters where I train who have spoken in person with a lot of these "freakishly huge bodybuilders" you speak of .

What a toughie.


It's like debating whether to listen to your dentist or your 5 year old brother when you have a toothache.


You start the basic lifts with just the bar. If you cripple yourself trying to squat just the bar and adding 10 lbs per workout for a while then you have some pretty big issues that suicide is probably needed to solve. 14 year olds learn to squat and deadlift.

Who the hell said to throw 200 lbs on the bar and then "good luck learning correct form?"

Heh I first started learning how to squat with only 85 whopping lbs (btw I did do rippetoes my first year)

Most of the top trainers say this stuff. They learned everything the hard way before information was readily available on the internet.

They are trying to save us the aggravation of wasting time with bodybuilder routines like Arnold's and other crazy crap people of their day did to try to emulate those guys. Someone 150 lbs doing a bodybuilding routine is silly. His entire body is a weak point.

Most people simply aren't volume responders. The ones who are aren't posting on msgboards asking for help.

Given the right amount of food a newbie can making any ****in' routine work as long as it's organized correctly.

Again we don't know this kid, his eating habits day in day out. Guys like Dorian Yates/Arnold taught us a lot about training (Dorian was very precise). Hell Arnold trained like a bodybuilder/powerlifter at times. Why cause he wasn't close minded. He was like the Bruce Lee of the sport and he took what he found useful when training along side powerlifters. back in the day you had powerlifters/bodybuilders training alongside each other all the time. *GASP* the power lifters were even training like bodybuilders sometimes to!

Look most people are on here to get strong and look good naked (prob more so the look good naked part). Quickest way to that point is eating big amounts of nutritious food everyday and training like a bodybuilder. I don't think any one on here can argue that.

 

[ATP]

I do appreciate the isolation exercises. They are like the fine tools used by someone carving a statue out of a rock. Many people seem to roll their eyes at isolation exercises but they got their use too. Once you start gaining some weight you can see what areas lag behind and adjust the routine with an isolation exercise or two for the problem area.

When starting out though people are like a big slab of rock and you need the bigger tools to shape it down (the big lifts). Then you can get to work on the details (isolation exercises). Using the big lifts to get good symmetry isn't really something I think is possible. It would be like trying to sculpt a rock with a mining pick. Trying to sculpt that rock down with the fine tools would leave you standing there for years cutting away when it would be a lot faster with the bigger tools.

For mass though I don't think isolation exercises are especially good. I'd take the deadlift over ten isolation exercises any day of the week.