"The Kiss of Death Mistake"
You replay the conversation at 2 a.m. She texted back fast yesterday. Today, nothing. Was that smile friendly or flirty? What did the shoulder touch mean?
Every hour you spend decoding her signals drains your confidence and hands her the controls. Women can sense that insecurity from across the room — and it repels them.
One of the "22 Rules" kills the obsession on the spot: assume she likes you, and act accordingly. Sounds too simple. Works anyway.
Her interest tends to rise to meet your expectations. Psychologists call it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
AD
- Thread starter Vassago
- Start date
"She Wants a Man, Not a Boy"
You asked her if she wanted to grab coffee. Then you asked if the time worked. Then you asked if the place was okay. Then you asked if she'd prefer tea.
Four questions. Four chances for her to say no. Four signals that you're terrified of making a decision.
Plan it. Pick the place. Pick the time. Tell her where to meet you. She'll either show up or she won't.
Either way, you look like a man instead of a scared little boy.
You know, it is amazing... I used to be a firm AD fan, thinking this was a great way to find interested women.. i looked at Vassago and Devlar and wondered if they ever get women...
THe funny thing is, now that i look at it, i like Vassago's approach much more. It is down to earth, "everyone deserves a chance" type of thing. He sounds like a guy who knows that he is confident and fun, so he doesnt need to bother setting up tests left and right...
As i've said before, each person creates their own way to deal with women.. right now my way resembles Vassago's.
THe funny thing is, now that i look at it, i like Vassago's approach much more. It is down to earth, "everyone deserves a chance" type of thing. He sounds like a guy who knows that he is confident and fun, so he doesnt need to bother setting up tests left and right...
As i've said before, each person creates their own way to deal with women.. right now my way resembles Vassago's.
If Anti-Dump can tell that quickly if a woman is worth pursuing or not then he'd be a fool not to take advantage of that skill.
Wasting time on women with low to no interest level doesn't make sense no matter what your goals are, be they ONS or LTR.
Wasting time on women with low to no interest level doesn't make sense no matter what your goals are, be they ONS or LTR.
Anyone can tell these things!!
Hell, all you gotta do is look at the way she acts! I can do it all i want, you know what happens? You "weed out" girls who MIGHT have had some interest growing but you cut it short.
If YOU are interested in a girl, you MUST give her a chance to get interested in you... what i mean is dont be this "im so mysterious, i never call and just judge you on your every move" type of guy.
enjoy yourself. If a women is acting fishy, let her know. If she puts up dumb excuses, let her go.
Hell, all you gotta do is look at the way she acts! I can do it all i want, you know what happens? You "weed out" girls who MIGHT have had some interest growing but you cut it short.
If YOU are interested in a girl, you MUST give her a chance to get interested in you... what i mean is dont be this "im so mysterious, i never call and just judge you on your every move" type of guy.
enjoy yourself. If a women is acting fishy, let her know. If she puts up dumb excuses, let her go.
"She Made Her Decision Before You Finished Your Sentence"
Three seconds. That's how long it took. Your shoes. Your posture. The way you held your drink. Whether you looked at the floor or looked at her.
She already filed you away. Interesting. Boring. Safe. Bold. Before you even opened your mouth.
Everything you say after that is just her confirming what she already decided.
So stop rehearsing lines. Fix the first three seconds. Stand tall. Look up. Smile like you mean it. Walk like you belong wherever you're standing.
The words come later. The impression comes first.
SexPDX
Master Don Juan
Interesting old discussion here. Anti-Dump says something that is very revealing.
Also like Vassago said, interest can be created. This whole notion of seeing what her interest level is that Anti-Dump talks about is fine, but it does eventually beg the question 'what is her interest in you supposed to be based on?' Being ready to MARRY someone at first sight of them is a GUY THING, women are not like that as much. In the early stages, guys should be more focused on demonstrating the parts of their personality and their lives that will interest the woman than they should be on testing how interested she is. It's simply not reasonable to expect a woman to have a "high level of interest" in you just based on having layed eyes on you for the first time, and that is the root of my fundamental disagreement with Anti-Dump and Doc Love.
Anti-Dump's ideas are not only those of a bitter person but also of an insecure one. It's clear that the reason he holds how interested a woman is in him to be the SINGLE most important thing about her and he wishes to find the most interested woman he possibly can is that he wants the security of having a woman he does not believe he can lose. It seems not even to matter to him what kind of a person she really is, only that she is there and she is SOOOO interested in him that he is convinced he can't possibly lose her. And his relentlessnes in seeking the MOST INTERESTED woman, communicates his underlying lack of confidence in his ability to interest a woman so much.
In light of all this, why I am the only person on this forum that I can remember ever to describe Anti-Dump as an AFC is something I have never been able to figure out.
-PDX
There is something very strange to me about the mindset of being willing to MARRY a woman only because she is the one who has shown the "most interest" in you. Not that a woman being interested in you is a bad thing, it just doesn't seem like it should be the chief criteria and certainly not the ONLY creteria.
Also like Vassago said, interest can be created. This whole notion of seeing what her interest level is that Anti-Dump talks about is fine, but it does eventually beg the question 'what is her interest in you supposed to be based on?' Being ready to MARRY someone at first sight of them is a GUY THING, women are not like that as much. In the early stages, guys should be more focused on demonstrating the parts of their personality and their lives that will interest the woman than they should be on testing how interested she is. It's simply not reasonable to expect a woman to have a "high level of interest" in you just based on having layed eyes on you for the first time, and that is the root of my fundamental disagreement with Anti-Dump and Doc Love.
Anti-Dump's ideas are not only those of a bitter person but also of an insecure one. It's clear that the reason he holds how interested a woman is in him to be the SINGLE most important thing about her and he wishes to find the most interested woman he possibly can is that he wants the security of having a woman he does not believe he can lose. It seems not even to matter to him what kind of a person she really is, only that she is there and she is SOOOO interested in him that he is convinced he can't possibly lose her. And his relentlessnes in seeking the MOST INTERESTED woman, communicates his underlying lack of confidence in his ability to interest a woman so much.
In light of all this, why I am the only person on this forum that I can remember ever to describe Anti-Dump as an AFC is something I have never been able to figure out.
-PDX
PDX, looking for a girl who is loyal (likes you a lot) is normal, i dont see anything wrong with it.
However, i do agree that "Filter women left and right" is not the complete assumption.
This is the correct guide to finding the woman:
YOU have to approach a lot of girls. YOU have to take care of yourself, this way more girls want to get to know you. (Take Bondjamesbond principle if you like)..
ONCE you get to this part, where you always have girls who like you: (Because you worked on attracting them)
Now you take the AD way and start filtering.
Honestly, as i am reading this, why is this in the bible? Why is BJB post in the bible? This is fukking common sense.. You look for the girl you like, right? So why the hell would i settle for a girl who is b1tchy or insecure?
Why are there people giving mad props left and right to these posts when this is WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO naturally.
hmm..go figure eh?
However, i do agree that "Filter women left and right" is not the complete assumption.
This is the correct guide to finding the woman:
YOU have to approach a lot of girls. YOU have to take care of yourself, this way more girls want to get to know you. (Take Bondjamesbond principle if you like)..
ONCE you get to this part, where you always have girls who like you: (Because you worked on attracting them)
Now you take the AD way and start filtering.
Honestly, as i am reading this, why is this in the bible? Why is BJB post in the bible? This is fukking common sense.. You look for the girl you like, right? So why the hell would i settle for a girl who is b1tchy or insecure?
Why are there people giving mad props left and right to these posts when this is WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO naturally.
hmm..go figure eh?
SexPDX
Master Don Juan
I am not opposed to looking for a girl who likes you a lot. Who would want to be with someone who WASN'T into them? All I was saying is that it is indicative of some profound emotional security issues for one to hold the highest POSSIBLE "interest level" as the chief if not the ONLY creterion for the woman one intends to marry.
Of course there is something to be said for believing you have found the person who loves you more than anyone else, but Anti-Dump presents this quality as something that is simply there or is not there rather than something that develops as the relationship progresses, which I think is more on the mark.
I am sure most of us on this forum when we think about the girl we would ultimately like to end up with, we can come up with more things to say about such a woman than "she would be REALLY, REALLY into me!" Anti-Dump doesn't seem to be able to.
-PDX
I don't think I'd call AD an AFC, though his strategies are clearly fundamental/ beginner. This is great for beginners. It is important to know the fundamentals.
However, for those who have the basics down, this article by Allen Thompson on Confident Persistence describes (essentially) AD's tactics and their weaknesses, and then goes on to describe more advanced tactics: http://www.sosuave.com/articles/persistence.htm
However, for those who have the basics down, this article by Allen Thompson on Confident Persistence describes (essentially) AD's tactics and their weaknesses, and then goes on to describe more advanced tactics: http://www.sosuave.com/articles/persistence.htm
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This is very interesting stuff. I wish people wouldn't flame each other for different points of view though.
I got caught up in the whole idea of a girl with high interest as well with my current gf.
Problem is, her interest which was sky high for a while has now come down to more realistic levels and I am left paranoid about our status.
In the end make sure things match up well. I really do want this to work out with her, but I have to be careful. I might just be headed for a crash course with the biggest heartbreak of my short life. Worst part is, I set myself up for it.
I got caught up in the whole idea of a girl with high interest as well with my current gf.
Problem is, her interest which was sky high for a while has now come down to more realistic levels and I am left paranoid about our status.
In the end make sure things match up well. I really do want this to work out with her, but I have to be careful. I might just be headed for a crash course with the biggest heartbreak of my short life. Worst part is, I set myself up for it.
"You Can't Argue a Woman Into Liking You"
You made your case like a lawyer. Stable job. Good guy. Ready for something real. All true. All irrelevant.
She weighed your points, nodded along, felt nothing — then fell hard for some tattooed bartender with a motorcycle and a gambling problem.
Logic is where attraction goes to die. The "22 Rules" work a level deeper, on the subconscious switches that decide within minutes whether you register as a MAN or as part of the furniture.
Stop presenting evidence. Start flipping switches.
Just read that confident persistence article again.
It kind of reminds me of this beautiful speech Jim Valvano gave at the ESPN awards when he was dying of cancer.
He said "Don't give up, don't ever give up"
Great article, great story and just what I've been needing to hear.
It kind of reminds me of this beautiful speech Jim Valvano gave at the ESPN awards when he was dying of cancer.
He said "Don't give up, don't ever give up"
Great article, great story and just what I've been needing to hear.
Mr. Mystery II
Senior Don Juan
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I'm in agreement with Now What. AD's program is a great set of training wheels.
It is a great way to start out, you show a bit of spine, soon enough you realize you are being too quick to judge and that perhaps you are being an A-hole. Some call this the "Jerk" stage.
Then you learn to look at women as other people and wish to share time and enjoyment with them, then your on your way, but the jerk stage is an important stage in my opinion.
Mr. Mystery
Simply beautiful article posted.. I loved it, pointed out some thing i need to work on.. for i am eager to next girls any day of the week. (hmm.. 2 last week.. gotta get those back )
AD is quick to next women..very quick. If you read that article, you will see why this will take him MUCH longer to find a girl of his dreams.
)AD is quick to next women..very quick. If you read that article, you will see why this will take him MUCH longer to find a girl of his dreams.
SexPDX
Master Don Juan
Mr. Mystery and Now What bring up an interesting point which I would like to discuss and that is this notion of Anti-Dump's ideas as "training wheels" as Mr. Mystery put it. I think that to think about it that way appears at first to be a useful way of looking at it but on closer examination it falls apart for a couple reasons.
The first reason is that I think it is important when evaluating approaches to meeting women and dating it is important to interpret the ideas in the manner that they were originally intended to be interpreted. To put it more simply, it's not WHAT you do so much as how you do it. It is not as important what exactly you say and do with women as is the motivation, spirit, feeling, intent and overall frame of mind from which those actions come. With Anti-Dump not here to participate in this discussion, we must judge for ourselves what his intent was in presenting to this forum the ideas that he did in regards to how they were to be interpreted.
I have not read every word that Anti-Dump has ever written but I believe I have read most of which defines the essence of his ideas. And from those articles I would have to contend that there is little evidence if any that Anti-Dump intended his methods to be something to introduce beginners to the game by providing them with a mindset that they would later discard in favor of their own self-formed ideas. I think there is much more evidence that he was presenting his own plan of action and thought that he intended to follow until he met a woman that he held to meet all of his creteria and that would be the woman he would marry, and he encouraged others to follow the same course of action.
As an example of one of his posts that I hold to be fundamental to Anti-Dump's overall mentality, I cite Protect Your Heart (he needed to protect his BALLS or else he wouldn't have ended up writing posts like that, LOL). Another one is Treat All Women the Same. I remember a while back Pook and I had a discussion where Pook pointed out to me that that post was written at a time when there were many instances on the forum of guys treating a woman who was really hot much differently than they would a more "normal" woman. That may be an important point to consider when interpreting the post, but at face value the post ignored some things I hold to be almost truisms. Such as the idea that a man needs to know his audience and know what the kind of women he desires respond most favorably to. And also the FACT that a woman of extraordinary attractiveness requires a MUCH different approach than a girl who ain't all that hot.
Moving beyond the original intent issue, The second reason I find this "training wheels" notion lacking in legitimacy is it's overall usefulness to beginners as a way of getting their sea legs, so to speak.
Those of you who have been around a while, think back to when you first found this site and whatever other material on the topics you may have been exposed to. I think you will remember feeling somewhat overwhelmed. After all, it is quite a lot to be hit with all at once to suddenly get the memo that you are an AFC and everything you thought you knew about women and everything you have been doing with women has been fundamentally wrong so far. Under these circumstances, it is hard to avoid a certain amount of overcompensation for having been a nice guy, casually "nexting" women, pseudo-badboyism, etc.. That is a natural process that occurs in pretty much ALL beginners and it certainly does not require an entire method and approach in order to further facilitate it.
I was still very new to the game when DeepBlue wrote his post Being Realistic About Nexting and probably was not ready to hear it at the time but now I think it's something that the forum needed to hear (it's in this archive for anyone interested).
In conclusion, I will say that it has been quite some time since I have motivated to write a post of this length. However, I have long thought that it is time sosuave as a community took a look at the wisdom of Anti-Dump's ideas and evaluate their wisdom BEYOND their simplicity and beyond the ease with which they can be followed (which seems to be their appeal) and look at the underlying mentality and motivations from which they come. Because, in my opinion, they aren't coming from anywhere that is healthy for any of us.
-PDX
The first reason is that I think it is important when evaluating approaches to meeting women and dating it is important to interpret the ideas in the manner that they were originally intended to be interpreted. To put it more simply, it's not WHAT you do so much as how you do it. It is not as important what exactly you say and do with women as is the motivation, spirit, feeling, intent and overall frame of mind from which those actions come. With Anti-Dump not here to participate in this discussion, we must judge for ourselves what his intent was in presenting to this forum the ideas that he did in regards to how they were to be interpreted.
I have not read every word that Anti-Dump has ever written but I believe I have read most of which defines the essence of his ideas. And from those articles I would have to contend that there is little evidence if any that Anti-Dump intended his methods to be something to introduce beginners to the game by providing them with a mindset that they would later discard in favor of their own self-formed ideas. I think there is much more evidence that he was presenting his own plan of action and thought that he intended to follow until he met a woman that he held to meet all of his creteria and that would be the woman he would marry, and he encouraged others to follow the same course of action.
As an example of one of his posts that I hold to be fundamental to Anti-Dump's overall mentality, I cite Protect Your Heart (he needed to protect his BALLS or else he wouldn't have ended up writing posts like that, LOL). Another one is Treat All Women the Same. I remember a while back Pook and I had a discussion where Pook pointed out to me that that post was written at a time when there were many instances on the forum of guys treating a woman who was really hot much differently than they would a more "normal" woman. That may be an important point to consider when interpreting the post, but at face value the post ignored some things I hold to be almost truisms. Such as the idea that a man needs to know his audience and know what the kind of women he desires respond most favorably to. And also the FACT that a woman of extraordinary attractiveness requires a MUCH different approach than a girl who ain't all that hot.
Moving beyond the original intent issue, The second reason I find this "training wheels" notion lacking in legitimacy is it's overall usefulness to beginners as a way of getting their sea legs, so to speak.
Those of you who have been around a while, think back to when you first found this site and whatever other material on the topics you may have been exposed to. I think you will remember feeling somewhat overwhelmed. After all, it is quite a lot to be hit with all at once to suddenly get the memo that you are an AFC and everything you thought you knew about women and everything you have been doing with women has been fundamentally wrong so far. Under these circumstances, it is hard to avoid a certain amount of overcompensation for having been a nice guy, casually "nexting" women, pseudo-badboyism, etc.. That is a natural process that occurs in pretty much ALL beginners and it certainly does not require an entire method and approach in order to further facilitate it.
I was still very new to the game when DeepBlue wrote his post Being Realistic About Nexting and probably was not ready to hear it at the time but now I think it's something that the forum needed to hear (it's in this archive for anyone interested).
In conclusion, I will say that it has been quite some time since I have motivated to write a post of this length. However, I have long thought that it is time sosuave as a community took a look at the wisdom of Anti-Dump's ideas and evaluate their wisdom BEYOND their simplicity and beyond the ease with which they can be followed (which seems to be their appeal) and look at the underlying mentality and motivations from which they come. Because, in my opinion, they aren't coming from anywhere that is healthy for any of us.
-PDX
PDX, man, please explain to me why I should believe something crazy like this:
Yes, hot girls know they are hot. They usually have more guys wanting them. Why the hell should i care? I want her, and ill be damned if i am going to put up with BS just becuase she is hot!
But Ox, wouldnt you try to hang on to the beautiful girl where you would not care about an ugly one?
The truth is, you shouldnt force yourself to hang on to either one! (when first starting out). The obsessing and too much caring over her is what got you to this site in the first place!
I see you mentioned DeepBlue. He was a great guy.
Read this post, i'm curious what you think:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42390
?
Yes, hot girls know they are hot. They usually have more guys wanting them. Why the hell should i care? I want her, and ill be damned if i am going to put up with BS just becuase she is hot!
But Ox, wouldnt you try to hang on to the beautiful girl where you would not care about an ugly one?
The truth is, you shouldnt force yourself to hang on to either one! (when first starting out). The obsessing and too much caring over her is what got you to this site in the first place!
I see you mentioned DeepBlue. He was a great guy.
Read this post, i'm curious what you think:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42390
"You Can't Argue a Woman Into Liking You"
You made your case like a lawyer. Stable job. Good guy. Ready for something real. All true. All irrelevant.
She weighed your points, nodded along, felt nothing — then fell hard for some tattooed bartender with a motorcycle and a gambling problem.
Logic is where attraction goes to die. The "22 Rules" work a level deeper, on the subconscious switches that decide within minutes whether you register as a MAN or as part of the furniture.
Stop presenting evidence. Start flipping switches.
Mr. Mystery II
Senior Don Juan
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SexPDX:
Good post, alot to read there, lol!
I haven't read nearly as much of AD as you since I wasn't around back then, so you are definetly more of an authority on him than I. What I have read I don't completely disagree with.
Like you said when you are initially exposed to this site or any other seduction site you will either reject the info or embrace it and most likely become a jerk. So perhaps there is no need for AD to come tell you what you already know right? But he really is just giving you a program to work in. He's organizing your new way of thinking and dealing with women. I don't know if he's adding to the jerk-ness as much as he is giving people an easy application of it.
That being said, I'm not sure I would go so far as to call him an AFC or anything negative. Life can be a TON simpler without having to deal with women romantically. Maybe he just decided he didn't want to deal with all the games and bs and he would only keep a women around that was gonna play by his game.
Maybe he just saw "Last Tango in Paris", one too many times. Being completely non submissive and dominant can be particularly seductive. Alot of women want to be dominated, but dominating gets very boring.
I guess my point is if it worked for him and he's content with the results who cares if its "AFC" or not, same goes for anyone who is happy with whatever system they have with women. If you it works for you, keep doing it.
Mr. Mystery
Good post, alot to read there, lol!
I haven't read nearly as much of AD as you since I wasn't around back then, so you are definetly more of an authority on him than I. What I have read I don't completely disagree with.
Like you said when you are initially exposed to this site or any other seduction site you will either reject the info or embrace it and most likely become a jerk. So perhaps there is no need for AD to come tell you what you already know right? But he really is just giving you a program to work in. He's organizing your new way of thinking and dealing with women. I don't know if he's adding to the jerk-ness as much as he is giving people an easy application of it.
That being said, I'm not sure I would go so far as to call him an AFC or anything negative. Life can be a TON simpler without having to deal with women romantically. Maybe he just decided he didn't want to deal with all the games and bs and he would only keep a women around that was gonna play by his game.
Maybe he just saw "Last Tango in Paris", one too many times. Being completely non submissive and dominant can be particularly seductive. Alot of women want to be dominated, but dominating gets very boring.
I guess my point is if it worked for him and he's content with the results who cares if its "AFC" or not, same goes for anyone who is happy with whatever system they have with women. If you it works for you, keep doing it.
Mr. Mystery
SexPDX
Master Don Juan
I wasn't recommending that you put up with BS just because she is hot. I think you misunderstood me. All I said was that it requires a different approach to be successful with a more attractive girl than with a less attractive girl. If you want me to elaborate further I will, but I think you will understand now.
Maybe I shouldn't have said that. But I don't know what else to call a guy who has such a deadly fear of losing a woman that he implements a system designed to weed out all women besides the "most interested woman" in the hopes of finding a woman SO interested that there is, in his mind, ZERO possibility of ever losing her. He is so insecure that he cannot even stand to entertain it as a possibility that he may loose a woman. Even the NAME Anti-Dump reflects this neurotic phobia of his! Come on! And what else would cause him to be so neurotically afraid of losing a woman besides an underlying lack of condfidence in his ability to be interesting or attractive to them? And finally...what type of guy would have such negative deeply held beliefs about his desirability to women as those here aforementioned? ANSWER: An AFC.
Please correct me if the above reasoning is flawed.
WHY have I bothered to post so much about Anti-Dump in this thread? I confess that it annoys me that Anti-Dump is held be some sort of immortal legend on this forum when I myself cannot think of him as anything other than the chief architect of ideas and attitudes that have been over the years more damaging to members than they have been healthy.
-PDX
SexPDX
Master Don Juan
What do I think? I think it was absolutely unnecessary and inappropriate for you to post DeepBlue's article (which by the way is a masterpiece) in your own thread when it would have been so much easer to provide a link to it. Which would have credited him more strongly for his own material rather than causing you to be praised as some sort of proxy for DeepBlue.
If you wanted to discuss the ideas in his post, you should have used the thread that DeepBlue started which is here in these archives.
-PDX
Cesare Cardinali
Master Don Juan
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PDX wrote:
PDX,
good to see you posting some normal stuff again instead of lame suggestions and feedback all the time.
On to the topic at hand.
Anti Dump's advice has an AFC bent in that he seems more concerned with avoiding pain than in experiencing mind blowing pleasure.
This is a messed up frame simply because girls with very high interest right off the bat are usually AFC low self esteem types that will fall for any guy. How can they show such interest without really knowing who you are?
For the life of me, besides rules like how often to call and whether or not to chat on the phone, AD hardly went into what it takes to actually be attractive to high quality chicks.
What kind of man do high quality chicks go for and how to become that man. That to me is way more important than whether or not some low self esteem fatty has high interest in me.
Cesare Cardinali
I agree, although I think the guy just didn't know any better.
PDX,
good to see you posting some normal stuff again instead of lame suggestions and feedback all the time.
On to the topic at hand.
Anti Dump's advice has an AFC bent in that he seems more concerned with avoiding pain than in experiencing mind blowing pleasure.
This is a messed up frame simply because girls with very high interest right off the bat are usually AFC low self esteem types that will fall for any guy. How can they show such interest without really knowing who you are?
For the life of me, besides rules like how often to call and whether or not to chat on the phone, AD hardly went into what it takes to actually be attractive to high quality chicks.
What kind of man do high quality chicks go for and how to become that man. That to me is way more important than whether or not some low self esteem fatty has high interest in me.
Cesare Cardinali
"Why Women Dump the Guys Who Try the Hardest"
You paid for dinner. You drove. You said "whatever you want is fine" every single time. All the effort, no expectations.
And she left anyway — probably for a guy who makes her pick up the pizza.
Painful. Also predictable. Her mind quietly concludes that anything requiring zero effort from her is worth exactly zero. You became a free sample, and free samples get taken for granted.
The 22 Rules flip the dynamic. Small shifts that get her investing effort, money, and time in you — until SHE'S the one afraid of losing YOU.