The bar is low

[Captain Redbeard]

Recently I have had the (dis)pleasure of seeing some awful game up close and personal. Twice in the past few weeks I have been at a restaurant and ended up at a table next to a couple on a first date. In both instances, the men were absolutely clueless and it was genuinely painful to observe.

Date 1 — the guy was desperate. He made it clear that he was lonely, sounded like he recently moved to town and was floundering a bit. She was bored, giving him very little to work with in conversation and trying to speed things along, started mentioning that she was going to meet up with friends after the meal. Desperateboy starts asking, “oh well what are you doing tomorrow?” “Maybe we can meet this weekend? I’ll be free.” They walked out and I think he was still trying to secure a future meeting.

Date 2 — guy was obnoxious. Very clearly trying to imply that he was doing well financially and never shut the fvck up. I don’t think he ever gave her a chance to speak. At one point he asks something about if she likes baseball. She says not really and he immediately launches into a story about baseball before the last syllable is out of her mouth. He then tries to one-up the waiter by asking questions about the menu which I’m sure made his date start sitting in a puddle. My check came before the conclusion of their date but she was already saying that she didn’t want dessert….

Neither guy made his date laugh even once. There was no sexual tension. And the venue selection was subpar.

Don’t believe all the doom and gloom you read about modern dating. The bar is very low. If you have even an iota of game, you will stand out.

 

[CBear]

Very much so. When women show me the guys and their messages on dating apps or I hear about my fiancée's friends' dating updates or I simply pay attention in public as you did, I am completely appalled. Obviously it takes two to tango but it's amazing how boring/desperate/c0cky guys can be. Not only that, but they ask 0 questions, they're inconsiderate, and they're the complete opposite of the suave gentleman archetype. There really is a pandemic of a lack of self awareness out there today.

Its not that hard to stand out when this is what you're going up against.

 

[BaronOfHair]

Don’t believe all the doom and gloom you read about modern dating

The Manosphere needs more equivalents to Julian Simon https://www.wired.com/1997/02/the-doomslayer-2/

 

[SW15]

Twice in the past few weeks I have been at a restaurant and ended up at a table next to a couple on a first date. In both instances, the men were absolutely clueless and it was genuinely painful to observe.

A man who goes on a first date at a restaurant for lunch or dinner is clueless by definition. Meal dates as first dates are terrible ideas.

To me, it's shocking that men still offer meal dates as first dates in the 2020s. I thought the first date meal date was long since dead by now. I first heard to not use meal dates as first dates in the early 2010s. It's been close to 15 years since I first heard it and I don't think I was on the leading edge of hearing that idea.

It's even worse when men are offering first date meal dates to women they've started interactions with by using swipe apps. It would have been interesting to know how these 2 dates were arranged.

Date 1 — the guy was desperate. He made it clear that he was lonely, sounded like he recently moved to town and was floundering a bit. She was bored, giving him very little to work with in conversation and trying to speed things along, started mentioning that she was going to meet up with friends after the meal. Desperateboy starts asking, “oh well what are you doing tomorrow?” “Maybe we can meet this weekend? I’ll be free.” They walked out and I think he was still trying to secure a future meeting.

This sounds like a typical beta male date. It's not entirely his fault that he moved to a new city with a limited to zero social circle and no girlfriend. That's a recipe for a bad experience in a given city, even if that city is a somewhat good city. It's even worse if that guy is doing that at age 30+.

The guy didn't do a good job at giving the woman reasons to invest in him. I think he revealed too much about himself. If he was cool about his status as a new guy in a city, he could have made it work. That would have involved discussing some female friendly hobbies he has when asked but mainly focusing the conversation around her hobbies, her passions, and her relationships with her friends. If he was able to connect with her emotionally, he could have gotten at least a 2nd date. I'm also sensing that this guy wasn't 6'0"+, fit/muscular, and with a full head of hair either. The conversation/personality requirements are reduced if the man has his looks on point. This sounds like a sub 6'0" man with an average physique displaying poor conversational skills.

Date 2 — guy was obnoxious. Very clearly trying to imply that he was doing well financially and never shut the fvck up. I don’t think he ever gave her a chance to speak. At one point he asks something about if she likes baseball. She says not really and he immediately launches into a story about baseball before the last syllable is out of her mouth. He then tries to one-up the waiter by asking questions about the menu which I’m sure made his date start sitting in a puddle. My check came before the conclusion of their date but she was already saying that she didn’t want dessert….

This guy has money so at least he's doing well in one category.

Having money but having an awful personality isn't going to result in much.

I doubt he was upper tier in both looks and money.

If he had let her do most of the talking, he would have stood a better chance.

Neither guy made his date laugh even once. There was no sexual tension. And the venue selection was subpar.

It's more difficult to create sexual tension on a meal date with a bad seating arrangement. Sitting across from each other is going to make sexual tension more difficult to create, even for a more skilled seducer. A more skilled seducer is going to choose a better format date. A more skilled seducer is going to choose drinks at a bar where he is sitting side-by-side and is physically closer to the woman so that he can kino escalate more and set up the kiss.

Sitting at a table at a restaurant more known for its food than at a bar more known for drinks is a recipe for disaster.

I think that you mean that the venue was subpar even by the standards of dinner dates in restaurants.

Laughter helps. A guy doesn't have to be a comedian but getting her to laugh 1-2 times would be favorable.

The bar is very low. If you have even an iota of game, you will stand out.

This is where I disagree. The bar for getting a 2nd date is higher. Women seek "all the feelz" on the first date now, so getting the first date right is important. Women are more vibe oriented now than in the past. Even as recently as 20 years ago, women would give something more of a chance to let a vibe develop.

The dates you shared would have been bad dates in the post-Sexual Revolution, pre-social media and smartphone era too.

I think you have a valid point that male social skills have gotten worse in the past 20 years. Female social skills haven't dropped off as much in that time, but females have gotten more sexual options in that time due to the growth in tech methods for finding dates. More sexual options means that women's expectations for mates have gotten higher. A date that was good enough to get a 2nd date in the 1990s-2000s often results in no 2nd date now because women have more options.

The creation of tech methods for arranging dates has resulted in more failed first dates than actual couplings. Part of this is due to worse male social skills but female abundance is a factor in this.

 

[Solomon]

Recently I have had the (dis)pleasure of seeing some awful game up close and personal. Twice in the past few weeks I have been at a restaurant and ended up at a table next to a couple on a first date. In both instances, the men were absolutely clueless and it was genuinely painful to observe.

Date 1 — the guy was desperate. He made it clear that he was lonely, sounded like he recently moved to town and was floundering a bit. She was bored, giving him very little to work with in conversation and trying to speed things along, started mentioning that she was going to meet up with friends after the meal. Desperateboy starts asking, “oh well what are you doing tomorrow?” “Maybe we can meet this weekend? I’ll be free.” They walked out and I think he was still trying to secure a future meeting.

Date 2 — guy was obnoxious. Very clearly trying to imply that he was doing well financially and never shut the fvck up. I don’t think he ever gave her a chance to speak. At one point he asks something about if she likes baseball. She says not really and he immediately launches into a story about baseball before the last syllable is out of her mouth. He then tries to one-up the waiter by asking questions about the menu which I’m sure made his date start sitting in a puddle. My check came before the conclusion of their date but she was already saying that she didn’t want dessert….

Neither guy made his date laugh even once. There was no sexual tension. And the venue selection was subpar.

Don’t believe all the doom and gloom you read about modern dating. The bar is very low. If you have even an iota of game, you will stand out.

Yup I agree with OP, for all the doom and gloom, if you looked at your competition, you would laugh. The whole "Fear of Chad" or "Fear of Tryrone" is a bunch of regurgitated RP nonsense based on cherry-picked stats. The reality is that most men are average, lack conversation skills, and basically keep the ***** dry.

Heck I've even seen so called "good-looking" guys with painful subpar convo skills. We all seen the videos of guys pretending to be a hot or mid chick and the cringe messages they got. That's your comp.

An average-looking guy with a supreme mouthpiece will do just fine in today's dating game;

 

[Barrister]

Good post. I will add -- I have noticed men on dates with women don't understand the very basic principle that you need to be escalating physically immediately. This doesn't mean groping her, but you need to make it known you are a sexual creature and you are with her because you want sex. I have seen men sit at giant tables with their date far from them with zero tension. I have seen men at the beach with their date (a good idea for a date) and they are standing awkwardly away from them and never touching them. It is OK to initiate contact. Sit at the bar side by side -- don't go to a dinner table.

Now if you are fumbling your dialogue with them like these two guys that gets harder to pull off and her like it, but you need to be involved physically as well.

 

[SW15]

I have noticed men on dates with women don't understand the very basic principle that you need to be escalating physically immediately. This doesn't mean groping her, but you need to make it known you are a sexual creature and you are with her because you want sex. I have seen men sit at giant tables with their date far from them with zero tension. It is OK to initiate contact. Sit at the bar side by side -- don't go to a dinner table.

Poor proxemics (spatial relations) has ruined many 1st dates. Physical escalation needs to happen immediately. I tend to use physical escalation tactics within 20-30 minutes during the first date.

Dinner tables and usually spatial relations at them (sitting across) makes kino escalation quite difficult. It's possible to sit perpendicular to a woman at a dinner table and that is better. However, side-by-side at any bar is better than perpendicular at a dinner table for creating physical escalation.

Initiate contact early and often.

When a date has poor proxemics, a woman will tend to walk away from the date thinking that the man is a good man (if he's a decent conversationalist) but the interaction lacked a spark. She did feel the vibes or "all the feelz". This will often happen because the man didn't use spatial relations well and didn't physically escalate. When this happens, this woman is not a woman who will accept a 2nd date. If the man offers, he will not receive a good response.

if you are fumbling your dialogue with them like these two guys that gets harder to pull off and her like it

Those 2 examples were examples of men that were poor conversationalists. I don't think good proxemics would have done much to help them.

 

[In2theGame]

I'm not surprised at all.

From the days of me going out, till recent times, I have noticed that Men have become SIGNIFICANTLY more passive and just flat out do not know how to talk/seduce Women anymore.

Back in, let's say... 2011 - 2015, There just seemed to be a lot more interaction and guys taking initiative to go up to Women with at least decent "game" but from what I can tell, it has drastically changed.

I'm not sure what has happened, since I haven't been in the singles scene for the past couple of years but for SURE there is a difference.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Recently I have had the (dis)pleasure of seeing some awful game up close and personal. Twice in the past few weeks I have been at a restaurant and ended up at a table next to a couple on a first date. In both instances, the men were absolutely clueless and it was genuinely painful to observe.

Date 1 — the guy was desperate. He made it clear that he was lonely, sounded like he recently moved to town and was floundering a bit. She was bored, giving him very little to work with in conversation and trying to speed things along, started mentioning that she was going to meet up with friends after the meal. Desperateboy starts asking, “oh well what are you doing tomorrow?” “Maybe we can meet this weekend? I’ll be free.” They walked out and I think he was still trying to secure a future meeting.

Date 2 — guy was obnoxious. Very clearly trying to imply that he was doing well financially and never shut the fvck up. I don’t think he ever gave her a chance to speak. At one point he asks something about if she likes baseball. She says not really and he immediately launches into a story about baseball before the last syllable is out of her mouth. He then tries to one-up the waiter by asking questions about the menu which I’m sure made his date start sitting in a puddle. My check came before the conclusion of their date but she was already saying that she didn’t want dessert….

Neither guy made his date laugh even once. There was no sexual tension. And the venue selection was subpar.

Don’t believe all the doom and gloom you read about modern dating. The bar is very low. If you have even an iota of game, you will stand out.

What were the women like? Were they instant boner material with top-notch social skills? Or average/subpar, nothing special chicks?

Like attracts like. The guys may have had poor game but I bet you their dates weren’t any better. If they were, they wouldn’t have found themselves sitting across the table from those guys in the first place.

 

[Bokanovsky]

I'm not surprised at all.

From the days of me going out, till recent times, I have noticed that Men have become SIGNIFICANTLY more passive and just flat out do not know how to talk/seduce Women anymore.

Back in, let's say... 2011 - 2015, There just seemed to be a lot more interaction and guys taking initiative to go up to Women with at least decent "game" but from what I can tell, it has drastically changed.

I'm not sure what has happened, since I haven't been in the singles scene for the past couple of years but for SURE there is a difference.

You are seeing the product of decades of institutionalized man-shaming.

 

[Solomon]

I'm not surprised at all.

From the days of me going out, till recent times, I have noticed that Men have become SIGNIFICANTLY more passive and just flat out do not know how to talk/seduce Women anymore.

Back in, let's say... 2011 - 2015, There just seemed to be a lot more interaction and guys taking initiative to go up to Women with at least decent "game" but from what I can tell, it has drastically changed.

I'm not sure what has happened, since I haven't been in the singles scene for the past couple of years but for SURE there is a difference.

I think it's a big combination of #Metoo and Covid. A lot of young men who were stuck learning on a computer missed out on a huge socialization aspect. Think about this a kid who is in college in 2025 5 years ago was in the 8th grade when covid first happened. That is just one example but to say this a lot of stuff you learn in middle school, high school, college now with how a lot of schools are set up some kids never got that social time, then factor in how everyone is addicted to their smart phones and you're dealing with Gen-Z who have no clue on how to talk to women or much less deal with them.

A recipe for disaster, another pandemic is coming before 2026, when there is no super bowl and world cup in 2026 then you will realize how deep this goes

 

[In2theGame]

You are seeing the product of decades of institutionalized man-shaming.

I would factor in a strong decline in Testosterone levels as well.

 

[SW15]

Back in, let's say... 2011 - 2015, There just seemed to be a lot more interaction and guys taking initiative to go up to Women with at least decent "game" but from what I can tell, it has drastically changed.

I moved to a new city in this time period and made some new single friends.

I read Roosh's "Day Bang" soon after its September 2011 publication date and was starting to transition more of my game from nightlife venues to non-bar venues. However, I went to enough bars during this time period to know what the bar scene was like during this time.

One of my friends put up a lot of notches during this time period. He is a 6'4" White male with former NCAA athlete status. He was doing well with approaching bougie White women in bars during this time before he later turned into a typical beta male married man.

I have noticed in recent years that there is less of an approach culture at bars now. There are fewer bars in my city now where approaching happens and is considered socially normal. Nightlife seems to be on the decline, even in major US cities.

Some groups of people still go out but it is more normal now to not interact with outside groups at nightlife venues.

 

[In2theGame]

I think it's a big combination of #Metoo and Covid. A lot of young men who were stuck learning on a computer missed out on a huge socialization aspect. Think about this a kid who is in college in 2025 5 years ago was in the 8th grade when covid first happened. That is just one example but to say this a lot of stuff you learn in middle school, high school, college now with how a lot of schools are set up some kids never got that social time, then factor in how everyone is addicted to their smart phones and you're dealing with Gen-Z who have no clue on how to talk to women or much less deal with them.

A recipe for disaster, another pandemic is coming before 2026, when there is no super bowl and world cup in 2026 then you will realize how deep this goes

The #MeToo movement was gaining steam back then but guys were still making the effort to go after Women. Covid I think could have been a turning point as well especially with the rise of E-communication via. Dating apps, social media and texting.

I can't quite put my finger on it but when I meet my friend for a drink once in a blue at a lounge or nice bar, I can just feel things are different based on observing how guys are interacting with women.

Two of my fiance's friends are hot and they are extremely frustrated with Men, dating apps and fed up with dating in general.

In my apartment building, I'm the only guy on the floor since the neighbors are all girls... I can sometimes hear them frustrated with guys. Nothing new in terms of Women venting but guys in recent times just don't seem to have that Manly smoothness anymore.

I remember a guy approaching one of my girl's friends at a lounge we were just hanging at, having a drink and just enjoying the night.... I'm not even kidding... one of his openers was "What's your favorite cereal?".... He wasnt joking either. It's just seems that bad.

Here you have a girl (with really nice T!ts BTW), blue eyes, pretty face, long dark blondish hair.... looking good and your opener is "What's your favorite cereal?"... Come on guy...

 

[In2theGame]

I moved to a new city in this time period and made some new single friends.

I read Roosh's "Day Bang" soon after its September 2011 publication date and was starting to transition more of my game from nightlife venues to non-bar venues. However, I went to enough bars during this time period to know what the bar scene was like during this time.

One of my friends put up a lot of notches during this time period. He is a 6'4" White male with former NCAA athlete status. He was doing well with approaching bougie White women in bars during this time before he later turned into a typical beta male married man.

I have noticed in recent years that there is less of an approach culture at bars now. There are fewer bars in my city now where approaching happens and is considered socially normal. Nightlife seems to be on the decline, even in major US cities.

Some groups of people still go out but it is more normal now to not interact with outside groups at nightlife venues.

Everything is done social apps now it seems, at the cost of losing the face to face interaction skills. I'd assume part of the dating frustration seems to be "hitting it off" through text but have no connection once the in person meeting happens.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

I'm not surprised at all.

From the days of me going out, till recent times, I have noticed that Men have become SIGNIFICANTLY more passive and just flat out do not know how to talk/seduce Women anymore.

Back in, let's say... 2011 - 2015, There just seemed to be a lot more interaction and guys taking initiative to go up to Women with at least decent "game" but from what I can tell, it has drastically changed.

I'm not sure what has happened, since I haven't been in the singles scene for the past couple of years but for SURE there is a difference.

Covid is what happened

The bar isn't just low, it's also dry

 

[Hal9000]

If the women aren't doing the majority of the talking on a first date there won't be a second date.

 

[BaronOfHair]

Back in, let's say... 2011 - 2015...


I'm not sure what has happened...

It's become much easier to escape into streaming and social media since even then, so that's what most PEOPLE do. Which is really quite remarkable, when we note: The time frame you mention wasn't all that long ago

 

[pipeman84]

I will add -- I have noticed men on dates with women don't understand the very basic principle that you need to be escalating physically immediately. This doesn't mean groping her, but you need to make it known you are a sexual creature and you are with her because you want sex.

When a date has poor proxemics, a woman will tend to walk away from the date thinking that the man is a good man (if he's a decent conversationalist) but the interaction lacked a spark. She did feel the vibes or "all the feelz". This will often happen because the man didn't use spatial relations well and didn't physically escalate. When this happens, this woman is not a woman who will accept a 2nd date. If the man offers, he will not receive a good response.

Actually, Doc Love would say the man presented himself as a challenge and that's a 1/3 of of what attracts a woman to a man (beside confidence and self control). In the above scenario, she'd be even more eager to get a second date.
In fact, I can't see any scenario where what Doc Love recommends wouldn't work. If she's a lady or even an average girl, she'll respect and be attracted by the guy acting as a gentleman. Even if she's a ditzy bimbo who's a regular on the apps, she'd at least be intrigued by non horny behavior that she's used with from the other guys and probably would want another date just to figure you out.

 

[SW15]

Doc Love would say the man presented himself as a challenge and that's a 1/3 of of what attracts a woman to a man (beside confidence and self control). In the above scenario, she'd be even more eager to get a second date.

I can't see any scenario where what Doc Love recommends wouldn't work. If she's a lady or even an average girl, she'll respect and be attracted by the guy acting as a gentleman. Even if she's a ditzy bimbo who's a regular on the apps, she'd at least be intrigued by non horny behavior that she's used with from the other guys and probably would want another date just to figure you out.

I like Doc Love. It's good you mentioned him and the concept of challenge. The concept of challenge isn't discussed on this forum enough.

As I see it, this is a misapplication of challenge. While challenge is good, this isn't challenge.

If a man doesn't physically escalate a first date, that's not him being a challenge. That's him sending a mixed signal, or failing to lead, or failing to fall into masculine frame.

In these scenarios, the woman isn't going to feel strong vibes/feelings or a romantic connection with him if he doesn't physically escalate in some way. It doesn't even matter if the man's Early Frame Announcement is a longer term one or shorter term one.

Doc Love's most famous work was "The System", published in the 1990s. "The System" was designed for achieving longer term relationships and possibly marriages. It's not a good manual for one night stands and other shorter term models. He mentioned that in the book itself and in online articles based around System principles in the 2000s. Mystery and other late 1990s/early 2000s PUAs operated more on getting short term sex and shorter term relationships.

I read many of Doc Love articles in the early to mid 2000s as I first getting into seduction.

I'm not sure how Doc Love adapted his ideas after the 1990s-2000s when some new technologies arrived and changed dating. He didn't think much of contacting women on earlier cell phones (pre-smartphone cell phones). He didn't talk much about website dating in his early to mid 2000s articles. Dating websites eventually led to swipe apps and social media DMs. Doc Love didn't spend his most of his career in the smartphone, dating app, and social media era when women had more abundance of options. Most of Doc Love's work seemed focused on competing against a narrower pool of men, mainly the other men a woman would meet through her real world activities. That worked in the pre-internet and early internet eras, before most households got broadband internet speed at home.

Women don't give things time to develop anymore. They need to have good vibes and strong feels right away. Some physical escalation alongside good conversation will do that.

The best way to be a challenge now for a man is not to behave like a typical simp would.

When a man is a good conversationalist but doesn't physically escalate, a woman will notice the lack of a spark. At that point, she'll either offer platonic friendship, send a pansy text of "I had a good time but do not see this going anywhere", or simply ghost.