But you haven't presented any facts, just a sad victim mentality that I can only assume you have developed through repeated bad experiences with women. I am telling you that it doesn't need to be that way. If you're deadset on that mindset then cool, enjoy a life without marriage and children I guess. But please don't try and tell people that all women and this society are sh1t because of YOUR bad experiences, because it's simply not true.Tenacity said:
Hello Friend,
If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.
It will be the most efficient use of your time.
And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.
Thank you for visiting and have a great day!
Some guy on MGTOW
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Tenacity
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jurry:
It shouldn't be my place to pay for a woman's rent or mortgage, if she didn't have a child by me then how would she pay it? Child support should be based on an annual limit, let's say $20,000 and any payments made should be accounted for, audited and with receipts required to confirm they were spent SOLELY on the child.
Too many men are paying excessive child support and the women aren't even spending the funds on the child(ren).
But don't miss my original point, pre-nups are not insurance. Plus you keep mentioning this concept of "MY CHILDREN," well, it's her children as well. Matter of fact, all of this talk about it being "MY CHILDREN" isn't even relevant until she actually has the children, she could kill MY CHILDREN anytime before that without my input.
jurry, I want you to spend some time researching the various issues within your State. I have done my research, but I'm not going to do the research that you need to be doing for yourself. You need to become more aware of what's going on out here, myself and other men who are discussing these things aren't doing so because we can't get "laid" or because we are just "angry at the world for no reason". There are REAL, structural, social, legal, problems out here right now between men/women relations in America.
-> 1st - 5th marriage divorce rates are over 70%, 1st marriages are nearly 50%. When you get married you have a 50/50 chance at best of staying married.
-> Alimony is awarded in about 30% of divorce cases across the country, and 90% of the time it's the man that has to pay, not the woman.
-> When there's a child custody battle going on, 70% - 80% of the time the woman is going to get custody of the child.
-> Child support is excessive and is fixed, not variable, based on the income of the non-custodial parent. As I stated, I can make $100k this year but make $45k next year, and they will base the child support payments on my $100k a year income.
-> DV cases are mainly initiated by women and when the Cops show up, there doesn't need to be any physical marks shown to require an arrest. The simple act of her calling the Cops means once they show up, somebody has to get arrested and it's usually the MAN.
-> Women can easily file sexual harassment cases against a Man, but if the reverse were to happen people would mock the Man (as well as not take him seriously) in doing so.
-> It's extremely easy for a woman to file a false rape claim against a Man, and if they eventually find out she's been lying, she only gets a slap on the wrist while the Man's entire life is destroyed.
-> Our society and culture shames Men every chance it gets, and promotes women to be strong and of honor. Most TV shows show the Man as an idiot but the woman as "strong and independent".
These are facts jurry, not just my personal life experiences. You can choose to ignore the realities of what's going on out here all you want because, "it hasn't happened to you yet," but you want to know something? I haven't been bitten by a Snake before, but that doesn't mean that Snakes don't bite and aren't out here biting people, right?
Yes, most of the time the mother gets custody of the child and child support payments are mandated. FIXED child support payments. It's to the point where if the guy made $100k a year during the year the child support came into place, but only made $45k the next year (because let's say most of his compensation is based on bonuses or commission) they are still setting the child support payments based on his $100k a year in income. Child support is a fixed "expense" rather than one that is based solely on the needs and wants of the child.
It shouldn't be my place to pay for a woman's rent or mortgage, if she didn't have a child by me then how would she pay it? Child support should be based on an annual limit, let's say $20,000 and any payments made should be accounted for, audited and with receipts required to confirm they were spent SOLELY on the child.
Too many men are paying excessive child support and the women aren't even spending the funds on the child(ren).
Okay, and the vast majority of the time it's the man that stands to lose, not the woman. Most women won't even marry a man that makes less than her now or if he will potentially make less than her in the future.
There's no reason why a woman needs to be a 100% housewife in 2015. A lot of women will make the demand to their husband after they are married, that they are going to be staying home and "looking after the house" while their husband is out slaving away to provide as well as pay off her student loans. Women will flat out flip the script on you during the actual marriage.
But don't miss my original point, pre-nups are not insurance. Plus you keep mentioning this concept of "MY CHILDREN," well, it's her children as well. Matter of fact, all of this talk about it being "MY CHILDREN" isn't even relevant until she actually has the children, she could kill MY CHILDREN anytime before that without my input.
jurry, I want you to spend some time researching the various issues within your State. I have done my research, but I'm not going to do the research that you need to be doing for yourself. You need to become more aware of what's going on out here, myself and other men who are discussing these things aren't doing so because we can't get "laid" or because we are just "angry at the world for no reason". There are REAL, structural, social, legal, problems out here right now between men/women relations in America.
-> 1st - 5th marriage divorce rates are over 70%, 1st marriages are nearly 50%. When you get married you have a 50/50 chance at best of staying married.
-> Alimony is awarded in about 30% of divorce cases across the country, and 90% of the time it's the man that has to pay, not the woman.
-> When there's a child custody battle going on, 70% - 80% of the time the woman is going to get custody of the child.
-> Child support is excessive and is fixed, not variable, based on the income of the non-custodial parent. As I stated, I can make $100k this year but make $45k next year, and they will base the child support payments on my $100k a year income.
-> DV cases are mainly initiated by women and when the Cops show up, there doesn't need to be any physical marks shown to require an arrest. The simple act of her calling the Cops means once they show up, somebody has to get arrested and it's usually the MAN.
-> Women can easily file sexual harassment cases against a Man, but if the reverse were to happen people would mock the Man (as well as not take him seriously) in doing so.
-> It's extremely easy for a woman to file a false rape claim against a Man, and if they eventually find out she's been lying, she only gets a slap on the wrist while the Man's entire life is destroyed.
-> Our society and culture shames Men every chance it gets, and promotes women to be strong and of honor. Most TV shows show the Man as an idiot but the woman as "strong and independent".
These are facts jurry, not just my personal life experiences. You can choose to ignore the realities of what's going on out here all you want because, "it hasn't happened to you yet," but you want to know something? I haven't been bitten by a Snake before, but that doesn't mean that Snakes don't bite and aren't out here biting people, right?
Snakes do bite, are you not going to go outside anymore?Tenacity said:
Look, I don't want to minimize these problems or how manipulative women can be or how unfair court can be. The problem is that MGTOW tries to present this as the norm when clearly it isnt, quickly leading to a cynicism and anger towards women and the society they live in - that you just cant make it work with a girl and we should just fvck them and never care about them, or give up entirely. This is a very dangerous and sad mindset, and only makes the divide grow bigger.
We have to live with each other and face the problems of the world together. There are many many great women out there, it would be a shame for men to lose out on that and turn their backs on the world because they have become so callous and hateful.
Tenacity
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jurry:
My friend, you can't screen out this shyt. The woman you court and marry, is NOT the same woman you divorce. The women change during the course of the relationship, you can't screen that out.
Furthermore, I'm glad that you acknowledge that these issues exist, but currently I understand that you don't feel as though they are as big as I'm making them. Like I said, please take some time this week and research these issues in your State and you will see just how RELEVANT they are. They are very relevant, they aren't just minor infrequently occurring events, this shyt is the norm for a significant amount of men.
Alimony is awarded in about 30% of divorces and over 90% of the time a man has to pay, about 10% of the time a woman has to pay. The funny thing is that small amount of women paying are bytching to the point where they are trying to get the system changed, but I have been trying to mobilize men for years to change the system and they refuse to speak up on the shyt.
For child support, yes, that's the way the system works. You can submit adjustments all day long, the Judge is going to look at your situation, education, the amount you have made the previous years and determine to lower or keep the payments the same. If you have a degree and made $100k last year, but this year you made $45k, the Judge is going to (most likely) say you are deliberating trying to reduce your income and decline your attempt for a payment reduction.
For DV, that's the way DV works. When the cops are called for DV, someone has to go to jail. Why am I with a piece of shyt woman that would do this? Once again, you can't SCREEN OUT everything buddy. Sometimes you don't know a chick is crazy until she turns crazy.
In relation to "anybody can file anything, doesn't mean it will go anywhere" is a very blanket statement. Talk to men like Brian Banks. If a woman accuses you of sexual harassment or assault, and she's a GREAT ACTOR, she can convince anybody that you did it. You can be convicted based solely on her words.
Again, sir, please DO YOUR RESEARCH.
First off, yes Snakes bite, so will I go outside? Yes, I will go outside, what I will do is just avoid places where snakes are likely to be and try to limit my exposure to Snakes. This is why MGTOW men opt out of marriage and creating children, you can't avoid women, but you can limit your legal exposure to them.
Secondly, you clearly haven't researched these issues. Just take some time and look up these issues, just because you haven't experienced them, that doesn't mean they don't exist. It's like what I said about the Snake, I haven't been bit yet, but I am aware of the situation enough to know there's Snakes in certain "grasses" that can bite the hell out of you.
Thirdly, you have never seen me type anything about "all women being anything," I don't know all women sir to even speculate on how "all women" are. But coming back to the Snake example, I don't know all Snakes. Some snakes WON'T bite you, some might squeeze the hell out of you instead. Some snakes, while they could bite or squeeze the hell out of you, might NOT do so. Some snakes can be pets. Some snakes you can walk around with it on your neck and let others pet it. But FAR TOO MANY snakes are poisonous, FAR TOO MANY snakes will bite the hell out of you, FAR TOO MANY snakes will squeeze the hell out of you. So as a result, when you are out and about, around snakes...you need to be aware of the potential danger that might await you.
jurry understand, the guy that usually gets screwed over isn't the pre-cautious one like me...it's the guy that walks around believing that all is "right" with the world, when in reality, it's not.
Not sure where you got this information but that surely wouldn't be my payment. I know men who are making $2,500 a month and paying $1,000 a month in child support. And there's no accounting or auditing done on the payments to the woman to determine WHERE she's spending the money.
It's not an absurd claim, like I said jurry, you should spend some time actually researching these topics my friend. The reason more women in divorce are awarded alimony than men, is because the men are making more money jurry, which means that when you take a look at most marriages (and divorces) it's the man that's the breadwinner...not the woman. Like I said, most women won't marry a man that's not going to be financially ahead of her now or potentially in the future, this might not be the same for generic dating, but for marriage women usually look for men that are financially ahead of them.
jurry come on my friend, let's not shame the victim now. It's utterly impossible for a guy to 100% SCREEN OUT a crazy a chick. There are things on the surface you can screen out, like how many kids she has, her financial situation, her weight, her interest level, etc. But most of the time a chick presents herself as one way during the courting and dating stage, but during the marriage she MORPHS into something totally different. By the time you are in Divorce Court, the woman in Court with you is a 180 degree difference than the woman you proposed to. There's no way you can screen that shyt out.
Yes, she does have control over what's in her body, but a man should also have a right over if the child HE PUT in her body, lives or dies in particular. Women can't say "it's my body and I can do whatever I want with it," but once what's in their body comes out, then they want to put the financial responsibility of it on someone else (a man or the Government) when they had no say as to whether or not the child lived or died.
My friend, you can't screen out this shyt. The woman you court and marry, is NOT the same woman you divorce. The women change during the course of the relationship, you can't screen that out.
Furthermore, I'm glad that you acknowledge that these issues exist, but currently I understand that you don't feel as though they are as big as I'm making them. Like I said, please take some time this week and research these issues in your State and you will see just how RELEVANT they are. They are very relevant, they aren't just minor infrequently occurring events, this shyt is the norm for a significant amount of men.
Sir, please do your research.
Alimony is awarded in about 30% of divorces and over 90% of the time a man has to pay, about 10% of the time a woman has to pay. The funny thing is that small amount of women paying are bytching to the point where they are trying to get the system changed, but I have been trying to mobilize men for years to change the system and they refuse to speak up on the shyt.
For child support, yes, that's the way the system works. You can submit adjustments all day long, the Judge is going to look at your situation, education, the amount you have made the previous years and determine to lower or keep the payments the same. If you have a degree and made $100k last year, but this year you made $45k, the Judge is going to (most likely) say you are deliberating trying to reduce your income and decline your attempt for a payment reduction.
For DV, that's the way DV works. When the cops are called for DV, someone has to go to jail. Why am I with a piece of shyt woman that would do this? Once again, you can't SCREEN OUT everything buddy. Sometimes you don't know a chick is crazy until she turns crazy.
In relation to "anybody can file anything, doesn't mean it will go anywhere" is a very blanket statement. Talk to men like Brian Banks. If a woman accuses you of sexual harassment or assault, and she's a GREAT ACTOR, she can convince anybody that you did it. You can be convicted based solely on her words.
Again, sir, please DO YOUR RESEARCH.
First off, yes Snakes bite, so will I go outside? Yes, I will go outside, what I will do is just avoid places where snakes are likely to be and try to limit my exposure to Snakes. This is why MGTOW men opt out of marriage and creating children, you can't avoid women, but you can limit your legal exposure to them.
Secondly, you clearly haven't researched these issues. Just take some time and look up these issues, just because you haven't experienced them, that doesn't mean they don't exist. It's like what I said about the Snake, I haven't been bit yet, but I am aware of the situation enough to know there's Snakes in certain "grasses" that can bite the hell out of you.
Thirdly, you have never seen me type anything about "all women being anything," I don't know all women sir to even speculate on how "all women" are. But coming back to the Snake example, I don't know all Snakes. Some snakes WON'T bite you, some might squeeze the hell out of you instead. Some snakes, while they could bite or squeeze the hell out of you, might NOT do so. Some snakes can be pets. Some snakes you can walk around with it on your neck and let others pet it. But FAR TOO MANY snakes are poisonous, FAR TOO MANY snakes will bite the hell out of you, FAR TOO MANY snakes will squeeze the hell out of you. So as a result, when you are out and about, around snakes...you need to be aware of the potential danger that might await you.
jurry understand, the guy that usually gets screwed over isn't the pre-cautious one like me...it's the guy that walks around believing that all is "right" with the world, when in reality, it's not.
Well first off, who are you referring to when you say "You can call MGTOW a cult"? I don't think it is I, the only person who did so was TaruntulaHawk who I disagree with and Atom Smasher immediately banned him. I don't disagree that MGTOW is an effect.Tenacity said:
The part I have qualms with is where you say MGTOW is rational and logical. Yes, endless optimism about the purity and innocence of women and the society we live in is absurdly naive. But endless pessimism that most women and most of the world is stacked against you is also naive.
A rational person takes calculated risks. Are our dealing with women risky? Of course. But based on a few of our past failings (and I am going to assume we all failed with women one way or another at some point if we came to this forum, especially when we were unaware with how the world worked) is not something we can use to justify complaining in the present.
We came to Sosuave and/or the manosphere. We learned a bit more of how the world worked. We started improving ourselves physically, mentally, socially, financially. And then we went out and we found the women and the world that beat us up so, beat up us less or didn't at all.
I myself lurked since 2008 and I changed a lot in the 7 years from hanging out here. Before I came I was burned constantly by women, so much that it hurt and made me cry like a b!tch a points. But with advice from people like Espi, I put on 30 pounds of muscle and fat so I wasn't a skinny toothpick. With advice from people like Rollo Tomassi, Vox Day, Dalrock, Athol Kay, Cane Caldo, I saw how they all managed their MARRIAGES and long term relationships which so many people here decry. I talked privately with some members here about the medical field and I am now in medical school. I learned from Heartiste and others how to be socially charming.
And through all those changes I saw women open up more, become less of a b!tch, stop burning me as much and for the past 3 years or so I felt like I was legitimately enjoying women.
Now does this guarantee I will be safe? Does my new physique ensure a woman will never cheat on me? Does my new career path ensure a woman will never divorce me and take me to court? Will my newfound charm and leading in relationships keep me dominant forever? The answer is no to all of the questions. Nothing is ever a guarantee.
Is the reason Rollo and Vox and GBFM and Heartiste, and Hawaiin Libertarian and Pook and the entire DJ Bible show us the workings of the world to discourage us, and to make us avoid women, and to provide a haven where we can complain about women all the time? Or do they show us all these things so we can try to avoid these pitfalls, build upon ourselves, and give hope and examples on how to overcome the injustice and unfairness of women and the world, and even come to enjoy women and the world?
LiveFreeX
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The only problem with MGTOW is they are starting to become militant like feminists in their hate. You can't even bring up the possiblity of male/female relationships or children without getting the ban hammer. That's how butthurt the current gen are.
A prevalent and seriously damaging attitude on many MGTOW forums is that American women = ALL women and since being burned by 1 American broad, I've concluded that women are ALL EVIL. Do not try and dissuade me!!! I am the great and powerful OZ.
Its nearly the exact same attitude that feminists have.
MGTOW vs Feminists
Both consider the other gender only good for sex.
Both live a solitary existence with cats/dogs
Both focus on spewing vitriol on Internet forums
Both have very little in the way of social interactions
Both wish their lives had worked out better
Both have SERIOUS pent up anger and passive aggression issues
Both usually come from single parent households, broken homes or heavily dysfunctional families.
Both are addicts of something: Alcohol, video games, food...
Neither are very successful in their personal lives
Neither have a good sense of humor or are fun to be around, both are awkward tools in social settings... likely both are introverts.
Feminists and MGTOWs are basically a match made in heaven. If you could bring them together for procreation, they'd probably be soul mates.
MGTOW is basically a feminist, just change everything from woman to man. That's generally why they are considered to be the manosphere losers.
MGTOW is not a healthy attitude to base your ENTIRE life on... going your own way after a breakup is a great idea and doing so for a couple years can clean you up right but staying celebit and single forever? No those people are in denial. No one wants to be alone.
A prevalent and seriously damaging attitude on many MGTOW forums is that American women = ALL women and since being burned by 1 American broad, I've concluded that women are ALL EVIL. Do not try and dissuade me!!! I am the great and powerful OZ.
Its nearly the exact same attitude that feminists have.
MGTOW vs Feminists
Both consider the other gender only good for sex.
Both live a solitary existence with cats/dogs
Both focus on spewing vitriol on Internet forums
Both have very little in the way of social interactions
Both wish their lives had worked out better
Both have SERIOUS pent up anger and passive aggression issues
Both usually come from single parent households, broken homes or heavily dysfunctional families.
Both are addicts of something: Alcohol, video games, food...
Neither are very successful in their personal lives
Neither have a good sense of humor or are fun to be around, both are awkward tools in social settings... likely both are introverts.
Feminists and MGTOWs are basically a match made in heaven. If you could bring them together for procreation, they'd probably be soul mates.
MGTOW is basically a feminist, just change everything from woman to man. That's generally why they are considered to be the manosphere losers.
MGTOW is not a healthy attitude to base your ENTIRE life on... going your own way after a breakup is a great idea and doing so for a couple years can clean you up right but staying celebit and single forever? No those people are in denial. No one wants to be alone.
Thats great danger but you're forgetting the main issue here: MGTOW are the ones with the problem. THEY are the ones repeatedly creating threads complaining about the system and how evil women are, how slvtty they all are and how they cant be trusted, how rigged the dating game is and that we shouldnt bother. They have the problem! How can you not see something so obvious lol..
If their problems are so real and their solution was working out so well then why so much anger and hostility on internet forums? If society and women were so fvcked as MGTOW claims, then it would be average joes like me complaining about women and then MGTOW telling me "pff dude youre doing it all wrong heres our solution". But it is precisely the opposite of that.
Tenacity, I have researched these and am looking at the same data you are, the point still stands. These ARE (unequivocally, by your own numbers) the tiny minority of cases where men are getting totally fvcked over by women and the court system. Yet you are dead-set on trying to present this as a common, everyday experience that we can all expect to happen with the women we meet. Is it important to be on our guard and screen women and watch out for these things? Of course. Is dating and women toxic and society is broken? Of course not dude, its totally absurd.
Unfortunately, as pook says, MGTOW people are so absolute and will not even consider other possibilities. Its nearly impossible to even get to this level of discussion about the issues, so I thank you for being that mature.
If their problems are so real and their solution was working out so well then why so much anger and hostility on internet forums? If society and women were so fvcked as MGTOW claims, then it would be average joes like me complaining about women and then MGTOW telling me "pff dude youre doing it all wrong heres our solution". But it is precisely the opposite of that.
Tenacity, I have researched these and am looking at the same data you are, the point still stands. These ARE (unequivocally, by your own numbers) the tiny minority of cases where men are getting totally fvcked over by women and the court system. Yet you are dead-set on trying to present this as a common, everyday experience that we can all expect to happen with the women we meet. Is it important to be on our guard and screen women and watch out for these things? Of course. Is dating and women toxic and society is broken? Of course not dude, its totally absurd.
Unfortunately, as pook says, MGTOW people are so absolute and will not even consider other possibilities. Its nearly impossible to even get to this level of discussion about the issues, so I thank you for being that mature.
If you're not even going to acknowledge that these type of hate/anger threads about WOMEN are a near daily occurrence here and elsewhere on the manosphere, then I've got nothing else to say on that.
30% of the less than 50% of marriages that result in divorce will have alimony awarded. Thats what, 10-15% of marriages? Nevermind whether that alimony is excessive or not. Yes, tiny minority.
I told you that false rape accusations are very serious, just like proven rape. Its hard to say "equally" because we are just talking hypothetically, it depends on the particular instance. Even though i said that about 10 times on the last thread you bring it up still as if it is some fresh new point?
30% of the less than 50% of marriages that result in divorce will have alimony awarded. Thats what, 10-15% of marriages? Nevermind whether that alimony is excessive or not. Yes, tiny minority.
I told you that false rape accusations are very serious, just like proven rape. Its hard to say "equally" because we are just talking hypothetically, it depends on the particular instance. Even though i said that about 10 times on the last thread you bring it up still as if it is some fresh new point?
I dont dislike the manosphere, I dislike the negativity and anger that pervades it so continuously. You apparently dont see any of this so we have no more to discuss there.
What is 1 in 6?
Most people get married when they are planning on having kids and spending the rest of their life with the person. I never said you were hating women by not getting married?
I dont recall the numbers from the rape discussion or why them occurring in similar numbers is important to you? A false rape accusation that doesnt even lead to an arrest or court case doesnt carry the same weight to me as someone actually being raped, if thats what youre talking about.
A false rape accusation that leads to a false conviction and jail time is of course a horrendous failure of the criminal justice system, but it is extremely rare. This is the kind of thing you seem to refer to as concluding that society as a whole is misandric and broken due to feminism etc.
What is 1 in 6?
Most people get married when they are planning on having kids and spending the rest of their life with the person. I never said you were hating women by not getting married?
I dont recall the numbers from the rape discussion or why them occurring in similar numbers is important to you? A false rape accusation that doesnt even lead to an arrest or court case doesnt carry the same weight to me as someone actually being raped, if thats what youre talking about.
A false rape accusation that leads to a false conviction and jail time is of course a horrendous failure of the criminal justice system, but it is extremely rare. This is the kind of thing you seem to refer to as concluding that society as a whole is misandric and broken due to feminism etc.
Tenacity
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May I ask, what sources did you use for your research? What State are you in? Post the links to the sources you used for your research.jurry said:
I'm in Michigan and everything I listed is VERY COMMON in this State. I would really like to know what State you are in because if it's infrequent as you claim over there, then maybe I need to move there?
Then as Danger suggested, maybe you should leave the Manosphere my friend, because the Manosphere is the only place where men are allowed to have honest, open and truthful discussions around women, family, child support, etc. without being FIRED from their places of employment.jurry said:
If it's too negative and you like prefer to be in a setting where everybody talks rainbows and carebears, and everybody sees women as ANGELS, then you are in the wrong place.
The Manosphere in and of itself, is founded on men who are pissed off at women. Either those men are guys who are pissed off at women for not sleeping with them, or pissed off at women for SCREWING them over in the Court, or pissed off at women for falsely accusing them of something, or pissed off at women for the generic low quality they bring to the dating scene.
So to even join the Manosphere, you have to had some level of issues with women, which means that the Blue Pill colored glasses of "everything is rainbows and care bears" was shattered a long time ago.
I also don't get people that attack MGTOW, I mean MGTOW right now is nothing but an Internet based group of guys who are apart of the bigger Manosphere. There's no MGTOW Mainstream Media, there's no MGTOW in the White House, there's no MGTOW in major Corporations, MGTOW isn't mainstream at all. If a small group of guys want to GO THEIR OWN WAY, why does that bother you? If that small group of guys want to have nothing to do with women (justifiably or unjustifiably) then why does that bother you?
Also if as you claim (which I disagree) that a lot of threads on Sosuave are about MGTOW, then so what? It's a General Discussion Forum in relation to topics about dealing with women, based on that, MGTOW is related in context.
If you choose not to participate in those discussions, block those members and participate in discussions that are in relation to everything being carebears and rainbows, and how you are looking forward to one day marrying a nice American chick and living happily ever after lol.
I think you're right, it is a total waste of energy to try and convince miserable men who have been fvcked over by women that dating and relationships really arent that hard, and that there are plenty of good woman out there for gf, marriage, kids, whatever. Because we all know dating is toxic and society is broken, and creating a family is just "rainbows and carebears" talk, right?
Good god, best of luck. I'm not going to bother anymore.
Good god, best of luck. I'm not going to bother anymore.
Tenacity
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Yes, jurry, it is what it is buddy. You are going to have a very difficult time convincing myself and others on here who have seen the BAD SIDES of women that there are "plenty of good women out here".jurry said:
You are also going to have a difficult time convincing some of these men who have been screwed over by child support and divorce, that marriage is still an option if you just "find the right chick," whatever that means. Your shaming tactics damn sure won't work, telling them that the only reason they have experienced these bad experiences with women was because they somehow didn't "filter right".
Nobody walks off a cliff jurry, these men that have been screwed by women in the Courts NEVER BELIEVED that their women would do something like that. The women, as I told you before, CHANGE in the middle of the marriage.
So yes, you are wasting your time. You might as well go over to one of those other forums (like Love Shack I believe) and talk about how there's so many quality women out here and you can't wait to be married. That shyt isn't going to be relatable to most of the members in the Manosphere, myself included.
OK so you are asking about the benefits of marriage. I will do my best to list a few that are from my perspective the reasons why I could see myself getting married very far in the future and why I think my risk is much lower than 50%.
1) Kids who have parents that are continuously married do better in all metrics of life not only as a child BUT UP TO 40 years old!
https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uplo...ng-at-each-life-stage-by-family-structure.jpg
If you want to reproduce one day (I certainly do) then your choice of family structure decides your child(ren)'s entire future. Children from continuously married families are 15-25% ahead of their peers who have parents that divorced. Children from continuously married families
are 28-39% ahead of their peers who have parents that never married.
2) In calculating risks you don't judge yourself by the rate. You find where you fall in the statistics.
http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/cf_images/20070526/CFB217.gif
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/coma/images/issues/200703/primarydivorce.gif
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2011/05/trends.jpg
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2013/images/ted_20131108.png
For those who at least finished college (not counting community college associate degrees or diplomas) the divorce rate was halved for men and women, to where most sources say around 20% or less of men who have a bachelor's or higher get divorced.
I fall into that category so automatically my divorce rate falls from the 40's and 50's to let's say about 20 something percent.
"According to research at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, one of the clearest predictors of whether wedding vows will stick is the age of the people saying them. Take the '80s: a full 81% of college graduates who got hitched in that decade at age 26 or older were still married 20 years later."
3) Race is a factor.
"Once education was factored in, the NCFMR found, with the exception of Asians, the highest rate of first divorce was among women with some college (this is including community college), regardless of race or ethnicity."
"Some college includes the associate degrees and community college goers. The same article goes on to say Among white women, there were few differences according to education, but those with a college degree (this isn't) experienced lower divorce rates than any other education group,” Manning said. “These findings showcase that the association between education and divorce differs for racial and ethnic groups, and it is important to consider this variation.”
Asian women (yes Americanized Asian women not FOBs) have the lowest divorce rate overall and white women who have college degrees have a lower divorce rate than white women of any educational group. Interracial couples of all kinds have a higher rate of divorce than White-White marriages with Asian Female-White Male having only a 4% increase from the white-white.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interr...ility_among_interracial_and_same-race_couples
I reduce my chances of divorce again if I marry white or asian. Fine.
4) Income and location matters
From http://www.newgeography.com/content/002203-divorce-and-demographics-state
"The chart produces interesting find: states with a high level of bachelor degree attainment (27.5% of the population or higher) also have relatively low divorce rates (lower than 9.9%). States such as California, Hawaii, Minnesota, Illinois, and much of the Northeast fit this profile."
Looks to the location under my name (U.S. East) and I have a bachelor's degree so according to this chart
http://www.newgeography.com/files/jl-educ.png
My divorce chance is pretty low.
"The chart pitting divorce against average income also reveals a disparity between regions—the higher the household makes annually, the less likely the couple inhabiting it is to be divorced. States such as New Jersey, Hawaii, Connecticut and Massachusetts can all be located here. Meanwhile, households in states with lower incomes (such as states in the South) seem to possess higher rates of divorce. The trend seems to put the Northeast in opposition to the Southeast and the Rust Belt."
I'm in the Northeast, and my career path gives me a projected income of low 6 six figures at minimum.
5) My parent's country of origin has a divorce rate of less than 20%. The divorce rate there is about 10-20% depending on the source. If I marry someone from the same culture I lower my chances of divorce. My father has 8 siblings, my mother also 7, yet among all of their families, all of my cousins marriages, etc. I only know of ONE divorce. And yes, all of the men are married by 35. This is especially good for me since studies have shown divorce is "contagious" among family and friends. "http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/21/is-divorce-contagious/"
6) Obesity and Overweightness affects marriage quality, stability, and divorce rates.
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/bar.2008.9976
Changes in sexual intimacy and beliefs about the stability of the relationship and risk of divorce after WLS are also common concerns. Overall, research suggests that WLS patients report improvements in relationship satisfaction and weight-related sexual quality of life after surgery, while experiencing minimal disruption to their marital relationships. Finally, suggestions are made for providers working with WLS patients on their relationship issues. These suggestions pertain to communication, the importance of accurate information, recruiting support, and obtaining psychological counseling when needed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1499810/pdf/bmjcred00630-0041.pdf
"A recent study,2 however, found that on the whole marriages were improved by correcting obesity. In this study, however, the morbidly obese had more Cook County Hospital, Chicago, Illinois, USA
GEORGE DUNEA, FRCP, FRCPED, attending physician unhappy marriages to begin with, and among this group there was a high postoperative divorce rate, thought to reflect the liberation of previously unhappy spouses who had put up with the marriage because of physical or psychological handicaps.2"
So I'm not morbidly obese. I'm not even overweight. I'm in the best shape of my life. That means my overall relationship stability, quality and sexual quality are all looking very good.
7) Although I don't have hard evidence for this, I am assuming a large number of people married have no game, no frame, no charm, are overweight, etc. By working on this aspect by taking what I've learned both on this website from various posters and select advice from manosphere greats.Girls laugh when I want them to, turn sexual when I want them to, so I at least have some social graces.
8) Why do I WANT to get married eventually? Point 1 is one example. I want to have kids and spread my seed. And I also want to raise them personally in a family structure that has been shown time and time again through empirical and anecdotal evidence, to raise the most successful men and women across pretty much all societies.
The benefits of long term relationships can go beyond the few legal benefits we get.
In many of my friends with successful LTR's cases the women were like personal secretaries who made sh!t run smoothly for their man. They desired sex with their man and helped the men succeed in their ambitions. They both also had many of the points I listed above (from the same race/culture, highly educated, with family histories of no divorce. (they both come from cultures with sub 10% divorce rates).
I know some people like the variety argument and it has its merits but even if I went the variety route, at one point I wouldn't mind marrying a high quality woman.
9) In conclusion my assessing my own risks based on a variety of factors backed with research (with the exception of point 1 which was a benefit of marriage not a risk factor, and the exception of point 8 which is explaining why I want to get married., my divorce rate is nowhere near 50%. Most risk factors put me below 20%, and considering I check off multiple of these factors while supplementing myself with game and knowledge of how the world and sexual market place works from the manosphere/Sosuave, my divorce rate is probably below even that.
Every person decides if the risk is worth the reward and judging by my own personal risk and reward I am fine with entering LTR's and even marriage in the far future.
Looking at the crude divorce rate of the U.S. and saying 50% plus marriages fail is a terrible argument. That sh!t includes vegas weddings, shotgun weddings, uneducated people marrying, poor people marrying, beta bucks marrying, promiscuous women marrying, a mismatch of race/religion/culture, 2nd, 3rd, 4th marriages etc, etc. YOU have to find where YOU fit in that average. Are you above it, equal to it, below it? If so why? Can I change any of these factors to improve my chances? How should I go about doing so?
Averages are good for average people. The average American man and women are overweight/obese. Yet I see you Tenacity on Health and Fitness with a decent physique that you are working on making even better. The average American man goes into marriage blind. You Tenacity have had the advantage of knowing how women work in this society. Those are only a few of the things where you fall above the average Tenacity. Who knows what other factors you have going in your favor? And if you have factors going against you (maybe financial, or where you live), is that not something that is malleable and something you can reduce?
Then to look at all of that and then say you won't marry because the crude divorce rate is 53% is being dishonest.
1) Kids who have parents that are continuously married do better in all metrics of life not only as a child BUT UP TO 40 years old!
https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uplo...ng-at-each-life-stage-by-family-structure.jpg
If you want to reproduce one day (I certainly do) then your choice of family structure decides your child(ren)'s entire future. Children from continuously married families are 15-25% ahead of their peers who have parents that divorced. Children from continuously married families
are 28-39% ahead of their peers who have parents that never married.
2) In calculating risks you don't judge yourself by the rate. You find where you fall in the statistics.
http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/cf_images/20070526/CFB217.gif
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/coma/images/issues/200703/primarydivorce.gif
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2011/05/trends.jpg
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2013/images/ted_20131108.png
For those who at least finished college (not counting community college associate degrees or diplomas) the divorce rate was halved for men and women, to where most sources say around 20% or less of men who have a bachelor's or higher get divorced.
I fall into that category so automatically my divorce rate falls from the 40's and 50's to let's say about 20 something percent.
"According to research at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, one of the clearest predictors of whether wedding vows will stick is the age of the people saying them. Take the '80s: a full 81% of college graduates who got hitched in that decade at age 26 or older were still married 20 years later."
3) Race is a factor.
"Once education was factored in, the NCFMR found, with the exception of Asians, the highest rate of first divorce was among women with some college (this is including community college), regardless of race or ethnicity."
"Some college includes the associate degrees and community college goers. The same article goes on to say Among white women, there were few differences according to education, but those with a college degree (this isn't) experienced lower divorce rates than any other education group,” Manning said. “These findings showcase that the association between education and divorce differs for racial and ethnic groups, and it is important to consider this variation.”
Asian women (yes Americanized Asian women not FOBs) have the lowest divorce rate overall and white women who have college degrees have a lower divorce rate than white women of any educational group. Interracial couples of all kinds have a higher rate of divorce than White-White marriages with Asian Female-White Male having only a 4% increase from the white-white.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interr...ility_among_interracial_and_same-race_couples
I reduce my chances of divorce again if I marry white or asian. Fine.
4) Income and location matters
From http://www.newgeography.com/content/002203-divorce-and-demographics-state
"The chart produces interesting find: states with a high level of bachelor degree attainment (27.5% of the population or higher) also have relatively low divorce rates (lower than 9.9%). States such as California, Hawaii, Minnesota, Illinois, and much of the Northeast fit this profile."
Looks to the location under my name (U.S. East) and I have a bachelor's degree so according to this chart
http://www.newgeography.com/files/jl-educ.png
My divorce chance is pretty low.
"The chart pitting divorce against average income also reveals a disparity between regions—the higher the household makes annually, the less likely the couple inhabiting it is to be divorced. States such as New Jersey, Hawaii, Connecticut and Massachusetts can all be located here. Meanwhile, households in states with lower incomes (such as states in the South) seem to possess higher rates of divorce. The trend seems to put the Northeast in opposition to the Southeast and the Rust Belt."
I'm in the Northeast, and my career path gives me a projected income of low 6 six figures at minimum.
5) My parent's country of origin has a divorce rate of less than 20%. The divorce rate there is about 10-20% depending on the source. If I marry someone from the same culture I lower my chances of divorce. My father has 8 siblings, my mother also 7, yet among all of their families, all of my cousins marriages, etc. I only know of ONE divorce. And yes, all of the men are married by 35. This is especially good for me since studies have shown divorce is "contagious" among family and friends. "http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/21/is-divorce-contagious/"
6) Obesity and Overweightness affects marriage quality, stability, and divorce rates.
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/bar.2008.9976
Changes in sexual intimacy and beliefs about the stability of the relationship and risk of divorce after WLS are also common concerns. Overall, research suggests that WLS patients report improvements in relationship satisfaction and weight-related sexual quality of life after surgery, while experiencing minimal disruption to their marital relationships. Finally, suggestions are made for providers working with WLS patients on their relationship issues. These suggestions pertain to communication, the importance of accurate information, recruiting support, and obtaining psychological counseling when needed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1499810/pdf/bmjcred00630-0041.pdf
"A recent study,2 however, found that on the whole marriages were improved by correcting obesity. In this study, however, the morbidly obese had more Cook County Hospital, Chicago, Illinois, USA
GEORGE DUNEA, FRCP, FRCPED, attending physician unhappy marriages to begin with, and among this group there was a high postoperative divorce rate, thought to reflect the liberation of previously unhappy spouses who had put up with the marriage because of physical or psychological handicaps.2"
So I'm not morbidly obese. I'm not even overweight. I'm in the best shape of my life. That means my overall relationship stability, quality and sexual quality are all looking very good.
7) Although I don't have hard evidence for this, I am assuming a large number of people married have no game, no frame, no charm, are overweight, etc. By working on this aspect by taking what I've learned both on this website from various posters and select advice from manosphere greats.Girls laugh when I want them to, turn sexual when I want them to, so I at least have some social graces.
8) Why do I WANT to get married eventually? Point 1 is one example. I want to have kids and spread my seed. And I also want to raise them personally in a family structure that has been shown time and time again through empirical and anecdotal evidence, to raise the most successful men and women across pretty much all societies.
The benefits of long term relationships can go beyond the few legal benefits we get.
In many of my friends with successful LTR's cases the women were like personal secretaries who made sh!t run smoothly for their man. They desired sex with their man and helped the men succeed in their ambitions. They both also had many of the points I listed above (from the same race/culture, highly educated, with family histories of no divorce. (they both come from cultures with sub 10% divorce rates).
I know some people like the variety argument and it has its merits but even if I went the variety route, at one point I wouldn't mind marrying a high quality woman.
9) In conclusion my assessing my own risks based on a variety of factors backed with research (with the exception of point 1 which was a benefit of marriage not a risk factor, and the exception of point 8 which is explaining why I want to get married., my divorce rate is nowhere near 50%. Most risk factors put me below 20%, and considering I check off multiple of these factors while supplementing myself with game and knowledge of how the world and sexual market place works from the manosphere/Sosuave, my divorce rate is probably below even that.
Every person decides if the risk is worth the reward and judging by my own personal risk and reward I am fine with entering LTR's and even marriage in the far future.
Looking at the crude divorce rate of the U.S. and saying 50% plus marriages fail is a terrible argument. That sh!t includes vegas weddings, shotgun weddings, uneducated people marrying, poor people marrying, beta bucks marrying, promiscuous women marrying, a mismatch of race/religion/culture, 2nd, 3rd, 4th marriages etc, etc. YOU have to find where YOU fit in that average. Are you above it, equal to it, below it? If so why? Can I change any of these factors to improve my chances? How should I go about doing so?
Averages are good for average people. The average American man and women are overweight/obese. Yet I see you Tenacity on Health and Fitness with a decent physique that you are working on making even better. The average American man goes into marriage blind. You Tenacity have had the advantage of knowing how women work in this society. Those are only a few of the things where you fall above the average Tenacity. Who knows what other factors you have going in your favor? And if you have factors going against you (maybe financial, or where you live), is that not something that is malleable and something you can reduce?
Then to look at all of that and then say you won't marry because the crude divorce rate is 53% is being dishonest.
If you don't want to wade through the entire post above (I tried to use enough research and data to back my claims as possible), you can just read the bottom portion:
"Looking at the crude divorce rate of the U.S. and saying 50% plus marriages fail is a terrible argument. That sh!t includes vegas weddings, shotgun weddings, uneducated people marrying, poor people marrying, beta bucks marrying, promiscuous women marrying, a mismatch of race/religion/culture, obese people 2nd, 3rd, 4th marriages etc, etc. YOU have to find where YOU fit in that average. Are you above it, equal to it, below it? If so why? Can I change any of these factors to improve my chances? How should I go about doing so?
Averages are good for average people. The average American man and women are overweight/obese. Yet I see you Tenacity on Health and Fitness with a decent physique that you are working on making even better. The average American man goes into marriage blind. You Tenacity have had the advantage of knowing how women work in this society. Those are only a few of the things where you fall above the average Tenacity. Who knows what other factors you have going in your favor? And if you have factors going against you (maybe financial, or where you live), is that not something that is malleable and something you can reduce?
Then to look at all of that and then say you won't marry because the crude divorce rate is 53% is being dishonest."
"Looking at the crude divorce rate of the U.S. and saying 50% plus marriages fail is a terrible argument. That sh!t includes vegas weddings, shotgun weddings, uneducated people marrying, poor people marrying, beta bucks marrying, promiscuous women marrying, a mismatch of race/religion/culture, obese people 2nd, 3rd, 4th marriages etc, etc. YOU have to find where YOU fit in that average. Are you above it, equal to it, below it? If so why? Can I change any of these factors to improve my chances? How should I go about doing so?
Averages are good for average people. The average American man and women are overweight/obese. Yet I see you Tenacity on Health and Fitness with a decent physique that you are working on making even better. The average American man goes into marriage blind. You Tenacity have had the advantage of knowing how women work in this society. Those are only a few of the things where you fall above the average Tenacity. Who knows what other factors you have going in your favor? And if you have factors going against you (maybe financial, or where you live), is that not something that is malleable and something you can reduce?
Then to look at all of that and then say you won't marry because the crude divorce rate is 53% is being dishonest."
Danger of course you cannot control everything, for example your own race. But you can control plenty of other things (financial status, location, the culture you immerse yourself into, your fitness, all of which I provided evidence on the previous page that contribute to divorce risk). Just because you cannot control a few factors doesn't mean you should quit on the other things.Danger said:
You said there is nothing in marriage you cannot get outside of it, but on the page with my links I already linked to data showing that married parents lead to children succeeding more so than children of never married parents. That's at least one thing, no?
On post #40 in this thread I linked to graph that shows what I said, but that graph is from here with the entire article:Danger said:
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/soci...riage-social-mobility-parenting-income-reeves
For success and each stage they linked to this model:
http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/10/11-improving-childrens-life-chances-sawhill-grannis
to sum it up
Early Childhood: acceptable pre-reading and math skills and behavior generally school appropriate
Middle Childhood: Basic reading and math skills and social-emotional skills
Adolescence: Graduates from high school with at least a 2.5 GPA and has not become convicted of a crime nor become a parent
Transition to adulthood: Lives independntly. Has a college degree or has a family income at least 250% above the poverty level.
Adulthood: Reaches middle class (family income at least 300% of the poverty level)
"We find that children who grow up with continuously married mothers rank on average 14 percentiles higher on the income distribution as adults than those who do not."
As to their controls, they did control for income, they said income accounts for 5 out of the 14 percentiles, and if you combine income, parenting behavior, maternal education, race and maternal age there is still at least a 4.5 percentile increase. They did not factor in location or religious beliefs as far as I can tell.
They continue in the article to contribute part of the percntile increase to parenting effect (parenting behavior) which lends your counter that it might be enough to include parenting behaviors without actually marrying ex. perhaps a system like cohabiting?
Your counter also has some evidence for it in this very long article that examines family structures:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3091824/
"Thus, both marital status and biological parentage are integral to children's well-being. Moreover, stability alone is not sufficient to maximize children's outcomes. Two-biological-parent cohabiting and married families are comparable on the basis of not only biological parentage but also stability, in that children in both family forms presumably have remained in them since birth and thus have experienced no disruptions or transitions in family structure. Granted, the risk of dissolution is greater in cohabiting than in married families (Manning, Smock, & Majumdar, 2004; Raley & Wildsmith, 2004), but both are intact family forms that comprise two biological parents. Future research should investigate why these two types of families differ for child development and whether marriage among cohabitors is linked to gains in well-being."
"Children raised by a cohabiting parent appear to have poorer outcomes than the children of married parents, across a range of indicators, including academic performance, emotional problems and depression, and behavioral problems and delinquency (Brown 2004; Brown 2006; Dunifon and Kowaleski-Jones 2002; Hofferth 2006; Raley, Frisco, and Wildsmith 2005)."
The first paper they (Brown 2004) says "Children living in two-biological-parent cohabiting families experience worse outcomes, on average, than those residing with two biological married parents, although among children ages 6–11, economic and parental resources attenuate these differences. Among adolescents ages 12–17, parental cohabitation is negatively associated with well-being, regardless of the levels of these resources. Child well-being does not significantly differ among those in cohabiting versus married stepfamilies, two-biological-parent cohabiting families versus cohabiting stepfamilies, or either type of cohabiting family versus single-mother families."
And the other papers show a trend. There is still a tangible advantage to married biological parents over cohabiting biological parents.
One more example of many
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11113-008-9083-8
"Children are increasingly spending time in cohabiting parent families. Most studies that examine the implications of parental cohabitation focus on parental living arrangements at a single point in time. Using data from the National Survey of Family Growth (NSFG), we assess whether and how parental cohabitation during childhood influences adolescent girls’ well-being. This work moves beyond prior studies by specifically considering the effects of the exposure to, transitions, and age at which children lived in cohabiting parent families. The results indicate living in cohabiting parent families is consequential for earlier sexual initiation, likelihood of having a teen birth, and high school graduation. Prior work suggests that the explanation for the negative effect of parental cohabitation is family instability. Yet, our empirical work shows that family instability does not explain the relationship between cohabitation and negative child outcomes. We conclude that the best way to understand the implications of parental cohabitation is to adopt a dynamic family experience model."
In cohabiting families daughters are more likely to have sex earlier, become a teenage mother, and fail out of highschool. This article even accounted for the fact of stable cohabiting families and still found this to be true.
Basically the large nih article is saying that if the family is stable and both parents are biological cohabiting and marriage have similar results in SOME metrics (with slight advantages going to marriage families). But it also says that the risk of dissolution is greater in cohabiting families than married families, and they were worse in other metrics. So if one was concerned about the overly high divorce rates of marriage as many MGTOW are, then why would higher rates of dissolution in cohabiting families convince them of cohabiting as an alternative?
If you want to raise children, research tends to show 2 parent bio marriage > 2 parent bio cohabitation > all the other family structures. But still bio marriage parents come out ahead of any other alternative. Why choose a method that has many consequences for your child(ren), and a higher rate of dissolution than marriage if your goal is to rear successful children?
backbreaker
Master Don Juan
I don't say this to me funny but i think the manosphere in general is full of hurt depressed dudes that need professional help, and this is coming from someone who sees a shrink 2 times a month.
Using avoidance to cover up hurt and pain is not going to help it's going to make it worse.
It's like a bunch of guys have decided it's better to be bitter and depressed than it is to be hurt and scorn. Not that I don't know what that feels like, but that's not right
Pook was right on one thing, there isn't a lot of joy and happiness in the MGTOW movement. I'm not saying women in themselves bring joy and happiness, but constantly making your live about avoiding them, that has to suck balls
Using avoidance to cover up hurt and pain is not going to help it's going to make it worse.
It's like a bunch of guys have decided it's better to be bitter and depressed than it is to be hurt and scorn. Not that I don't know what that feels like, but that's not right
Pook was right on one thing, there isn't a lot of joy and happiness in the MGTOW movement. I'm not saying women in themselves bring joy and happiness, but constantly making your live about avoiding them, that has to suck balls
