Setting Boundaries is an Agreement.

[G_Govan]

Setting overt boundaries is context dependent.

Look at all the time/money/effort spent surrounding the ultimate declaration of boundaries, wedding vows. How's that working out for us men?

As much as we discuss how irrational women behave, why is setting verbal boundaries at the beginning of a relationship concerning sexual intimacy, somehow an exception? If your woman gets observably jealous of you interacting with other women, she knows EXACTLY what behaviors are acceptable and unacceptable in a serious relationship.

Women actively play games with your head to keep you in your place. They goad you into behaving in jealous ways because it's the barometer they use to determine how invested in them you are. When you lack options, whether perceived or real it will show in your behavior and is quite difficult to fake, although possible with practice. Women know this, which is why they test for it constantly, particularly in those men who they believe could have other options.

As mentioned, if you fold even one time on a boundary concerning other male friends/acquaintances you've lost, in other words, she has reaffirmed you care more than she does.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Setting boundaries: The new "Do Looks Matter?"...

One big problem here is that the anti-boundary crowd cannot envision the nuance of the master.

Every organization, every entity that involves more than one person involves defined boundaries. As reflected in my title for this thread, boundaries are an agreement of acceptable behavior between two or more people which conveys to each other how the concept of respect will work between you. Each person must be aware of these expectations.

The male is the leader. It is essential that he sets the parameters (boundaries) of the relationship and that the other person is well aware of them and agrees with them.

The thing that trips up the anti-boundary crowd is the methodology by which the rules are delivered. They are delivered with finesse, nuance, and some covert and some overt communication. This scenario is utterly impossible to convey in concrete terms to some men because they so far lack the vision and artistry to pull it off.

Being an effective leader is an art, and this art cannot be taught to others by and large, unless they have a hunger to be a leader.

"Michelangelo, how do I paint a Sistine Chapel?"
"You simply dip your brush into the paint on your palette and paint it."

The artist will fully understand what he is saying, for the empty space where he has no words speaks volumes, just as the empty parts of the canvas are essential to the message of the masterpiece.

The non-artist will shake his head and say he's a nut. The non-artist lacks the imagination necessary to harness nuance to move mountains.

"Atom Smasher, how do you set boundaries?"
"You state them."

 

[TheException]

The thing that trips up the anti-boundary crowd is the methodology by which the rules are delivered. They are delivered with finesse, nuance, and some covert and some overt communication.

"Atom Smasher, how do you set boundaries?"
"You state them."

Where is the covert communication you speak of? You say you "state them" aka VERBAL OVERT communication. There is nothing covert about that.

 

[zekko]

Where is the covert communication you speak of? You say you "state them" aka VERBAL OVERT communication. There is nothing covert about that.

He said that he used a MIX of overt and covert communications. There's nothing wrong with overtly stating a boundary. But you might also use covert communication to probe her feelings on the subject, and to lead the conversation in that direction.

For example, and I think Danger has used this one, where he will bring up a situation that his friend is facing, and gets her opinion on it.

 

[G_Govan]

I get the feeling that some of these replies are disingenuous.

I don't believe anyone who disagrees with the main thrust of this thread has a black & white opinion about boundaries, so the "anti-boundary" label is inaccurate. In fact, we've been quite explicit about precisely what type of boundaries require overt and covert communication.

The thing that trips up the anti-boundary crowd is the methodology by which the rules are delivered. They are delivered with finesse, nuance, and some covert and some overt communication. This scenario is utterly impossible to convey in concrete terms to some men because they so far lack the vision and artistry to pull it off.

Now I'm really confused. I don't think you realize this quote is pretty much in agreement with the opinions of those you're actually arguing against. With the exception of it not being possible to convey precisely how this works, it is in fact, very easily explained. I think we've tried to do just that throughout multiple threads but I don't see anyone arguing the particulars and/or refuting specific points.

 

[TheException]

He said that he used a MIX of overt and covert communications.

Yes he did....

by which the rules are delivered. They are delivered with finesse, nuance, and some covert and some overt communication.

And I'm saying what are these covert ways to deliver boundaries?

This would be a direct contradiction to a very strict rule of "telling her the boundaries in the beginning of the relationship so she knows what the rules are".

There's nothing wrong with overtly stating a boundary.

Disagree. Women don't understand overt communication. Ever get into an argument with a girlfriend/wife and try to use logic? Doesn't work too well...

The reason I want to highlight Atom's point about covert boundaries is because this is a lot more along the lines of effective techniques and something the "anti-boundary" crew does. Versus telling a woman with words what she can and cannot do in a relationship.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Setting overt boundaries is context dependent.

Look at all the time/money/effort spent surrounding the ultimate declaration of boundaries, wedding vows. How's that working out for us men?

Wedding vows come well after a man has determined that his woman respects his boundaries. Those vows are little more than public ceremony. The man should not be standing at that alter unless she has passed his requirements regarding respect of the agreed upon relationship parameters.

 

[Atom Smasher]

A quick synopsis for TheException: Boundaries should be verbalized at the right time in the right place. These elements are different for each couple and depend upon a multitude of variables. That's where the artistry comes in.

It usually needs to be done when she drops the "So what are we?" bomb. Once the skilled man throws the ball back in her court and she declares that she wants a committed relationship, it's time to take charge and set the boundaries, i.e. define what a committed relationship means, after first extracting what it means to her, out of her. She must verbalize first IMO.

So initially the boundaries are stated overtly, not in a stern matter but in a "It just makes sense, right?" manner (not those actual words but that's the implication). It's the old "It's as obvious as the sky is blue" routine. Again, those aren't the exact words, just the implication.

Afterwards, smaller boundaries that have been set and are tested by her need to be handled with absolute ruthlessness. That means removal of attention for a transgression.

If she tests with a request for a relaxing of the boundaries (e.g. "Would you mind if I went out clubbing with my friend, MR. X?), that's where ruthless but dispassionate action comes into play.

"That's fine. We don't need to be steady. Maybe you're right... We can still see each other, but we'll go ahead and see others too."

I've mentioned in other threads that I've had three girlfriends in the past who have snuggled up to me and said completely out of the blue, "Atom, I love how you set boundaries for us". With the first one I was shocked, with the second one I was surprised, with the third one I realized I was on the right track in my handling my relationship requirements.

I can't ever remember having a girlfriend who challenged my boundaries. I'm seriously trying to remember one here, but I'm not coming up with anything. This is because I choose carefully, and I require a certain level of character from my women. Only a woman of a certain baseline of character will ever even hear me set boundaries. These are the ones whom I already know will comply because they clearly want to comply.

Boundaries are the bedrock of any relationship. Just as a child needs to know the rules of the household, so does a woman need to be made aware of the rules of the kingdom. All my women are guests in my kingdom, and they all know there are rules.

This is healthy and natural, and they know it. Any woman who does not submit to your leadership is not worthy to be with you. The boundaries are verbalized only to women who have been fully vetted. Fully vetted means that it is obvious to me that we share the same values. These of course are few and far between.

The covert part comes in usually when speaking about other couples. In the hands of a skilled man they can be subtly made into object lessons for her.

 

[Atom Smasher]

For the boundary guys - Do you have a boundary where you would'nt want a girlfriend going out dancing & drinking without you???

Absolutely. Nor would she stand for my doing the same, and rightly so.

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

Exactly...they just don't have the frame of reference or insight guys like In2thegame have.

I told one ex that I would not be in a LDR with her (she wanted to move out of country for 6mo). She told me her ball busting cuckolding sisters told her I was insecure. Oh wait,no they told her that I had "too much power." They literally could not comprehend a man setting a boundary.

Why even bother debating guys that have zero experience with something like this?

You make this post, then not 20 minutes later you make this post on another thread:

Yes but I never felt guilty for it because I was already 80-90% sure my gfs had cheated already and was proven right later. In fact, I voted "never".

What do we have zero experience with? Getting cheated on? Well, you'd be correct there.

Do you not see your hypocracy?

This place is unbelievable sometimes. You, Danger, and the rest of your crew deserve each other.

Unbelievable

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

Women cheat....is this some revelation to you? You are a violently unsound thinker. Like I said, if you dont have the experiences we have then this will all be alien to you.

You're right, I don't have the experiences of being cheated on like you do. Does that mean I should take your advice on what to do in a relationship so I can get cheated on?

WTF are you talking about?

 

[TheException]

Women cheat....is this some revelation to you? You are a violently unsound thinker. Like I said, if you dont have the experiences we have then this will all be alien to you.

Point is pal.....why are you giving out advice? If the women you date, cheat on you, why would anyone follow you?

 

[Newby 15]

Great thread full of different opinions.

what, are you dating 4s and 5s? Pathetic

I'm sure you're not dating any 8 or 9's yourself either.

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

what, are you dating 4s and 5s? Pathetic

No, that's just your irrational brain talking. I remember you bringing up this argument before. The ONLY reason I don't have women cheating on me is because I date ugo's. That's how fvcked up in the head you are. You can't believe that a Man can date a beautiful woman, and not have her cheat on him. Because, if that were true, then your whole world would collapse. You've fully convinced yourself that the REASON you constantly get cheated on is because you date hot women, and ALL hot women cheat, nothing the guy can do.


Pairs the poor victim. :crazy:


You should try to learn something, otherwise one day you're going to snap.

 

[Soolaimon]

Women cheat....is this some revelation to you? You are a violently unsound thinker. Like I said, if you dont have the experiences we have then this will all be alien to you..

This quote here sums it all up and proves my whole point about your boundaries.

You and the crew were cheated on and broken up with before.

That's why you feel you need to hold your women down to "terms" and control them to boundaries for the fear of being cheated on again.

Guess what? Terms and boundaries still aren't going to save you from that happening again.

Can we end this discussion now?

But no one is perfect, and men have feelings also. You really care way to much about trying to prove the boundary guys wrong. You really have nothing better to do?

They aren't going to agree with you.

They have already been proven wrong in several threads. Nobody has an answer to my points except the same repetitive false comments.

Boundaries are a preference and it's the woman's attraction is what counts. If there is no attraction coming from the woman the boundaries aren't worth $hit.

Who cares if they agree with me. I don't expect them to cause they can't understand common sense and are too hard headed.

All my points are for others to learn from in this forum and a lot of people are learning. I received several messages on the subject cause people want to know more about what I have to say.

All of those boundary guys have failed past relationships with boundaries and they still keep preaching for it

I have over a 2 year successful relationship and I didn't set any verbal boundaries with my woman cause I didn't need to.

You can still be a strong leader without telling her you don't accept her hanging out with other men.

When women are showing you through their own actions that they understand what it means you don't need to verbally tell them.

Quit being an idiot and using projection. They are posting just as much if not more than me.

I occasionally post here. You sit your ass on here each day. Don't you have anything else better to do? Start adding some posts of substance.

Solly,

You are trying to say my exit cost for housing is equivalent to a marriage exit cost.

My exit cost on housing is merely my purchasing her equity. That is not even a cost


You are trying so desperately to win that you actually try to make such ridiculous claims. And yes your posts are constantly full of insults and self affirmations that "everyone" agrees with you, when all I see are an army of people ignoring you or proving how wrong you are.


A divorce has the same exit cost as buying someones equity in a house??!!?! Good god I cannot believe you are making this argument.

You still have to pay her off large sums money. Why argue that?

You still are locked down living with one woman like a married man. You are in a de facto marriage. Why argue that?

You are being a hypocrite and making a fool of yourself. No need to defend or be ashamed of your living arrangement. That is what you chose.

I've already proven your boundaries to be crap. You can't answer anything I've said above. All you do is whine again about being insulted, saying your "cost" isn't as much as a married man, and "people calling me out" when it's 2 boundary crew guys doing that LOL.

Your contradictory boundary claim was $hit. Everybody besides your crew can see that.

Everything you do with your woman is the same as non boundary men do except you stated terms to her once that she can forget about and ignore after you told her later.

If people are that stupid not to understand that then they will find out for themselves like Social Leper, pairplusroyalflush, and in2thegame found out when their boundaries failed them.

There are no insults. Where's the army of people? 3 members from your boundary crew who agree with you? LOL. G Govan and Sylvester disagrees with you.

All you can cite is boundary crew members who are dating old mature women as your evidence. Replace those women with hot 21 year olds and your boundaries might not work out so well.

Start posting something of substance instead of crying "you insult me", "you need to define terms", "these boundary guys are getting sex and a certain member is not".

Same old $hit and projection in each post. You have nothing else to go on and neither does your crew.

Not one person from the boundary crew has come close to saying anything sufficient to argue their point on why boundaries actually work.

All you do is say "You must state terms", "Men must be leaders", same old $hit. Men can lead without stating terms.

Terms and agreements can easily be voided.....ask all the taken girls that banged other men how they feel about "terms" their boyfriends set months/years prior.

Relationships are more than just stating terms. When you don't have the rest of the $hit to go along with it your terms go down the drain along with your relationship.

One big problem here is that the anti-boundary crowd cannot envision the nuance of the master.

Every organization, every entity that involves more than one person involves defined boundaries. As reflected in my title for this thread, boundaries are an agreement of acceptable behavior between two or more people which conveys to each other how the concept of respect will work between you. Each person must be aware of these expectations.

The male is the leader. It is essential that he sets the parameters (boundaries) of the relationship and that the other person is well aware of them and agrees with them.

The male is the leader. It is essential that he sets the parameters (boundaries) of the relationship and that the other person is well aware of them and agrees with them.

And agreements are made to be broken when the woman loses feelings or has other men as options. Men can still lead without stating terms.

Women aren't going to care how smoothly you stated your terms or how you finessed.them when the attraction is gone. They are too focused on their new man they are gunning for.

Just because you agree on something when her IL is at the highest point doesn't mean it will stay the same when her IL lowers.

You guys can't grasp that simple concept. You think as long as she agrees to "your terms" you can lead her the way you choose. It doesn't work that way if she isn't willing to follow your lead. After she refuses that's when the bottom falls out of your boundary terms.

It also depends on what the woman looks like and how old she is.

Women who aren't good looking and are older have less options so they stay with the boundary.

Women who are young and hot might not stay with the boundary as easily.

I know a lot people who "agreed" to terms at the start of the relationship.

Those relationships failed when the woman decided that's not what she wanted.

I remember talking to the taken women I banged. That's what they said. "I thought that's what I wanted." It sounded good to them at the time but after it wasn't and the terms of the agreement were broken.

Men can still lead without informing her what exclusivity means.

So what if she agrees to the parameters on January 31st when on July 31st she is with another man?

What good were the rules and the terms?

 

[In2theGame]

I see my story is being dished out on why i was right or wrong but Like i stated before.... she started drifting off when i began taking the anti boundary approach to things because i didnt want to come off as "insecure" and "controlling". That just made me look like a weak pvssy in letting her do and hang out with whoever she wanted. Big Mistake. I know first hand about this type of sh*t because ive been through it twice.


My first serious Girlfriend was a nice southern girl and i had that same approach as exception, peaks.. etc are describing... She had guy friends and i thought that was fine. She ended up getting d*cked down by her male "friend". I couldnt believe she would do that however years later i understand that it was a negative on my part because I let her do as she wanted. She was free to have friends because they are just friends but make no fvcking mistake about it. Every guy... every single one of them... if your GF is attractive they WILL try to get in her pants. You can argue this all you want however i remember guy friends would call her but i didnt say anything because they were simply just class mates and guess what, that prick was calling to talk about "homework" trying to make a move. After putting up with alot of that type of sh*t i dumped her. She cried an ocean when i did but i didnt feel bad because i knew i did the right thing and should have stated my boundaries from the get go.

The second serious GF, I remember what had happened to me last time. Right from the start i sat her down and told her "If you have guy friends then i dont want to be with you, Im not going to put up with any of that sh*t. Its your decision. I have no problem just being your friend if thats what you want but i dont want to be together. You understand?" She grabbed my hand tightly and nodded her head "Ok baby". I had set that line in the sand and set that boundary. In other words, dont fvck around with me or else i want you out of my life immediately.

The night im referring to when that guy called her cell phone... she had deleted every guy but guys still had her number previously before we met. However i still had that heart of stone in me and thats why she freaked out when i was getting ready to leave her apartment. Thats when she begged me to stay.. I really liked her and i did feel bad because she was on her knees shaking begging me to stay. I stayed because she was shaking and i had to calm her down but i did tell her "Change that fvcking number because i dont want these guys calling you for any fvcking reason. you understand what im saying?" Again she nodded... next day the number was changed. Case was closed on that issue right away. She was deepy in love with me.

She looked up to me because she felt my strength i guess you can say. i didnt put up with anything that i did not like. i compromised on certain things because i fell in love with her and did enjoy doing things to make her happy. After years together when let myself let loose and not speak up to things i didnt like... she began feeling like its ok to do whatever she wanted. She would look at me and ask me "is this okay?" "Can i go to xxxxx place?" Then guys started posting things on her facebook and i didnt speak up like i did at the beginning. Eventually she thought it was OK. I let her do whatever because i THOUGHT i was secure in the relationship, I can lay back. I have learned boundaries need to be enforced at all times. You as the Man are the law. Again i greatly agree with what Danger said before about Women today THINK its ok to have male friends and hang out with guys because the beta men dont speak up and if they do, they do it in a way that comes from a weak point. I am Woman hear me roar... Yeah i'll hear you roar when you have fought wars like men did and created all things you enjoy today. I have no problems with women having rights but todays world...Women want you not only as a beta but a cuckold beta. You as a man need to put these women in their place. Understand this. You are Man who is dominant over Females. You need to set rules and boundaries.

After being fvcked twice because i let up on speaking up and keeping things in check, Women will slowly think certain things are OK and they WILL drift off and think your ok with it. Might as well be a cuckold. Like little children, they will do things to get away with until a father figure comes in and lets that child know that they are wrong and they better shape up. "Yeah but... Women are not children and they shouldnt be have to be told certain things"... Guess what.. they are very emotional and need guidance from a MAN. Why do you think when you ask a group of women a question... what do they do? they all look at each other and shrug.. and agree because others agree. Men have their own individual stance on things. Anyway,..... After those lessons with previous GF's I have always put girls in check and they all found it to be attractive. Women subconsciously want to be dominated. Ive fvcked so many HB8,9's and they ALL have told me that they love that i put them in place or that they like how i dominate over them. YOU HAVE TO KEEP THEM IN CHECK. I have seen it, I have experienced it and know what happens if you dont step up. For the guys who feel they dont need to set boundaries, Thats perfectly fine. That is your take and belief on the situation but you will learn the hard way.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Some guys apparently have some massive time on their hands. What a massive personal investment into a thread on a forum!

In2theGame (who I'm repping for an outstanding post) summed it up nicely. The "theorists" will learn the hard way, just like we more experienced chaps learned the hard way back in the day.

 

[Atom Smasher]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to In2theGame again."

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Danger again."

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

In2thegame, you've inspired me buddy.

Massive post coming.....whenever I can get it done (not good on deadlines). I'll let you guys know where I place it, if not here.

EDIT:

Very absurd strawman comment, shocking I already addressed you in full:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2226272&postcount=72

That's all I have to say about it, at this point its just aimless catfighting.

And Pairs, I'll respond to that post in it's own thread, didn't get a good look at it the first time. Also, I referring to a separate post you made on another thread. Anyway, I don't know what you were referring to as strawman....at this point, don't think it matters though.

 

[zekko]

Some guys apparently have some massive time on their hands. What a massive personal investment into a thread on a forum!

It's not just this one, there have been several of these marathon threads on boundaries. Personally, I don't care what other people do, if they don't want to have boundaries I have no problem with it. I can agree to disagree.

But when they come on here and start calling you names and talk about you being insecure if you don't allow her to run around with her male friends, that's when I have to object. Because the young guys that come on this forum, who have already been feminized enough by society, they don't need to hear this sh!t about how you have to let the girl keep her orbiters and male friends because you're insecure if you don't.

Those are the kind of rationalizations and lies women try to shove down your throat to try to shame you into letting them have their cake and eat it to. Young guys don't need to come to a supposed red pill site like this and have that same message shoved at them. Don't settle for less than what you want. Men should not be afraid to stand up for themselves, lead, and set the standards for relationships. That's our role, and as I always say: If the men don't do it, the women sure as hell aren't going to.

You can call me "insecure" until you're blue in the face. I will always set boundaries and expectations.