history lessons

[Interceptor]

never apologize.

i know you're just trying to be a stand up guy and be mature and get everyone to behave maturily also, and thats cool, but don't apologize to her. all it does it let her know 'ya, you can behave like a little spoiled brat and there will always be some guy there ready to cut you slack. heck, he'll even start by apologizing to you (even though he doesnt really think he has anything to apologize for)"

maybe im being a bit to one sided, but apologizing to women is pointless, they don't appreciate it. in fact, (although not in this scenario) see you apologizing as them winning - they often blow things up so that you get mad just so that you apologize to them (thats how they feel like they have power).

anyway, iqqi doesn't deserve an apology from anyone - she flamed this thread and whatever she gets is her own doing.

joe, thanks for the support.

I feel bad that she flamed you. But she reacted to your words.

My apology was becasue she thought I was being intentionally rude and offenssive to her.
This was incorrect.
So instead of getting an answer I got flamed back, which was never my intention.
You know, I'm not apologizing for my issue with her coment. And according to Phyzzle, she didn't mean it condescendingly at all. Who knows?
But again, my apology (it shoudl be obvious it's not kissing up to her. At least I think it is anyway.) was that she mistook my disappointment in her comment as a flame or a personal attack on her. When realy it was like seeing a friend say something insulting , you'd be like "Woah, dude! Where did that come from?!" thats all.

Hey, I don't condone her flaming. But this is an open forum, you know? You have a right to your opinions, and so does she.

 

[Nighthawk]

Penkitten, I think the reason your thread wasn't received as warmly as you might like is because most men on this site have had women's past inequality taught to them for their whole lives, in school and from women.

Most have taken it on board years ago, and have not been rewarded for it - often the opposite. It's not news. We know. Now it's time for women to see things from OUR point of view. Iqqis posts show how far we are from that happening.

 

[Interceptor]

UGH. You guys and girl are typing replies way to fast for me to even catch up!!!!


Jeez!

Let's all cut down on the flaming , guys and girls.
Really. Enough.

Either we get back on track or close it.

Penny only wanted to write what she felt was relate to men and women's dynamics and struggles. She wanted to encourage debate on her issue she brought up, that's all.
It was not a "how do I lay this chick?" post.
She also posted here in the MM forum becasue...well...she felt we would be mature enough to hold a discussion. But it got burnt to a crisp.

And I don't know about some of you guys, but I have always felt that MM forum specifically was more in gear with self improvement, self realziation rather than "how do I lay this chick??"


If you wan tthaty , do what everyone else does and go into the main forum.

just mho.

OK, I can't keep up with this.

Good night, folks,

Here' s something I believe.

You are ALL good people.

No one here is any degenrate, crazy person.
People here are GOOD PEOPLE. People who if they could will give you the shirt off their back. But they're not naive, or connected to the matrix.
I consider you guys and girls my frineds. And say whatever you want, you're still cool with me.

Buying everyone a drink, and raising a toast.

Friends.

Life is beautiful, people. It really is.

I'll be back later to see if it's calmed down in here.

Rum and Coke for me!
Who's game??!

 

[joekerr31]

iqqi has a hairy snatch. :box:

 

[penkitten]

Penkitten, you have class and it always shows in the way you interact with others. Good topic.

thank you colossus

 

[STR8UP]

maybe im being a bit to one sided, but apologizing to women is pointless, they don't appreciate it. in fact, (although not in this scenario) see you apologizing as them winning - they often blow things up so that you get mad just so that you apologize to them (thats how they feel like they have power).

It took me many years to realize this.

And you know what's even WORSE?

I don't think I have EVER had a chick apologize to ME.

Actually, I think my last LTR did, but only after I raked her over the coals for getting out of line on something that was very personal to me, and I'm sure this was one of the few times where a woman could actually see how out of line she was.

 

[penkitten]

Penkitten, I think the reason your thread wasn't received as warmly as you might like is because most men on this site have had women's past inequality taught to them for their whole lives, in school and from women.

Most have taken it on board years ago, and have not been rewarded for it - often the opposite. It's not news. We know. Now it's time for women to see things from OUR point of view. Iqqis posts show how far we are from that happening.

you know, perhaps it just shows how history is only taught by how it is perceived? perhaps bringing up the topic alone, will have at least one person thinking about how they handle issues when they arise.
if one person was lead to question anything, then maybe it was not such a bad thing...
without even getting into what is right and wrong, if you just look at how women re acted to things since the dawn of time... then perhaps one person learned something with the thread.
maybe someone learned why they were not rewarded for their actions when they did the right thing and a female let them down with disappointment due to what she was taught to do.
thank you for your participation and insight nighthawk

 

[penkitten]

Let's all cut down on the flaming , guys and girls.
Really. Enough.

Either we get back on track or close it.

Penny only wanted to write what she felt was relate to men and women's dynamics and struggles. She wanted to encourage debate on her issue she brought up, that's all.
It was not a "how do I lay this chick?" post.
She also posted here in the MM forum becasue...well...she felt we would be mature enough to hold a discussion. But it got burnt to a crisp.

And I don't know about some of you guys, but I have always felt that MM forum specifically was more in gear with self improvement, self realziation rather than "how do I lay this chick??"


If you wan tthaty , do what everyone else does and go into the main forum.

just mho.

OK, I can't keep up with this.

Good night, folks,

Here' s something I believe.

You are ALL good people.

No one here is any degenrate, crazy person.
People here are GOOD PEOPLE. People who if they could will give you the shirt off their back. But they're not naive, or connected to the matrix.
I consider you guys and girls my frineds. And say whatever you want, you're still cool with me.

Buying everyone a drink, and raising a toast.

Friends.

Life is beautiful, people. It really is.

I'll be back later to see if it's calmed down in here.

Rum and Coke for me!
Who's game??!

that was beautiful. i agree totally. i think it is time to cash in this thread, because i think everyone has had their fill of it.
just be the reactions of the thread, you can see that each and every one of us, reacts to everything completely different.
men reacted in different ways, and so did the women of this board.
we must learn that not all men and not all women ever react alike.
that alone is a priceless lesson.

 

[Nighthawk]

Penkitten, for the record I think you are an admirable woman. And you should know I'm no AFC ass-kisser. If you're as hot as you are quality, then GC is a lucky man. And if you're fugly I still respect you.

Ok, I'm a little drunk too.

 

[Interceptor]

Thanks, Penny.
But I vote we live up to our "Mature" title, and keep the thread going.


If we can keep the debates impersonal, then I want to see this through.

In fact, Hell, invite all the ladies of the forum to participate.

You think I'm crazy. right?

Nope.


I want to make LoveCrap.org go run into a corner and cry for their mama.


Penny wants to talk History of men and womens struggles.

So let's start...shall we?

:woo:

Oh, and another round of rum and cokes on the house.

:rock: Dude, I am soo mellow right now.............

 

[penkitten]

Penkitten, for the record I think you are an admirable woman. And you should know I'm no AFC ass-kisser. If you're as hot as you are quality, then GC is a lucky man. And if you're fugly I still respect you.

nighthawk i admire and respect you on this board too, because i feel that you speak your mind, regardless of how someone else is going to take it.
it is nice to know that i am respected by you and others here, even when a thread does not seem to go in the direction i had hoped.

 

[penkitten]

Most of us are not philosophers or historians.

perhaps this is the problem with people today. no one cares about what lead to problems, no one really wants to understand the problems, no one even wants a fix to problems... they just want a quick fix for today?
it is ok for us to disagree on this matter, for that is what discussion is for.
to each their own

 

[penkitten]

I don't think I have EVER had a chick apologize to ME.

str8up, i am sorry that women of our generation do not feel the need to apologize for their own wrong doings, and i am sorry that people in general just are not taking responsibility for their own actions.
not all women are like this, just as not all men are not like this, but we always seem to find the ones that are like this huh?

my hope for you is that one day, there will be a lady that will enter your life that will just be remarkable in the way she lives her life and that the two of you can have something that you have never really gotten to experience before. i believe you deserve to be treated for the good man that you are, the man that this forum has watched you grow into.
i respect you and consider you a brother here on the forum.

 

[Luthor Rex]

We don't need to know about how women have been mistreated for millenia. I'll give you that. It's true. OK.

History has never been that simple.

Yes, women have been confined to limited roles all thru history, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Men were also confined to roles. Women may have been forced into roles like mother/wife/*****/housemaid etc., but men were forced to be soldier/producer/protector/leader etc.

The critical thing there that feminism misses is that the roles most men were confined to were oppressive too. Most societies have been collectivist and put the state before the individual. Mom may have been forced to bake some apple pie, but dad had to go off to war and die if he wanted to or not.

Tryanical power that women accuse men of has always been confined to a small number of men who are at the top of the social ladder, in other words the men women want to fukk.

For a more scholarly treatment see here: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

"Culture has plenty of tradeoffs, in which it needs people to do dangerous or risky things, and so it offers big rewards to motivate people to take those risks. Most cultures have tended to use men for these high-risk, high-payoff slots much more than women. I shall propose there are important pragmatic reasons for this. The result is that some men reap big rewards while others have their lives ruined or even cut short. Most cultures shield their women from the risk and therefore also don’t give them the big rewards."

"A pattern of more men at both extremes can create all sorts of misleading conclusions and other statistical mischief...Thanks to grade inflation, most students now get A’s and B’s, but a few range all the way down to F. With that kind of low ceiling, the high-achieving males cannot pull up the male average, but the loser males will pull it down. The result will be that women will get higher average grades than men — again despite no difference in average quality of work. The opposite result comes with salaries. There is a minimum wage but no maximum. Hence the high-achieving men can pull the male average up while the low-achieving ones can’t pull it down. The result? Men will get higher average salaries than women, even if there is no average difference on any relevant input. "

"It’s not that the men pushed the women down. Rather, it’s just that the women’s sphere remained about where it was, while the men’s sphere, with its big and shallow social networks, slowly benefited from the progress of culture. By accumulating knowledge and improving the gains from division of labor, the men’s sphere gradually made progress. Hence religion, literature, art, science, technology, military action, trade and economic marketplaces, political organization, medicine — these all mainly emerged from the men’s sphere."

"Recent research using DNA analysis answered this question about two years ago. Today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men. I think this difference is the single most underappreciated fact about gender. To get that kind of difference, you had to have something like, throughout the entire history of the human race, maybe 80% of women but only 40% of men reproduced. "

 

[penkitten]

Thanks, Penny.
But I vote we live up to our "Mature" title, and keep the thread going.


If we can keep the debates impersonal, then I want to see this through.

In fact, Hell, invite all the ladies of the forum to participate.

You think I'm crazy. right?

Nope.


I want to make LoveCrap.org go run into a corner and cry for their mama.


Penny wants to talk History of men and womens struggles.

So let's start...shall we?

:woo:

Oh, and another round of rum and cokes on the house.

:rock: Dude, I am soo mellow right now.............

i am with you all the way if everyone would respect each other and not bash other members.
i mean, take for example the tire story, and just my reaction and iqqi's reaction to the same circumstances. we reacted differently, but yet we never bashed each other in the thread.

let's get the topic going again in the right direction.
we can talk about how men are the typical hunters and discuss what joan of arc was doing....

 

[Interceptor]

I've had women apologize to me. Sincerely.

And I've done favors for women (who actually asked me to) who didn't thank me too.
And.......I've done favors for women and have been thanked profusely.


And I still recall the events to this day. I remember them to the minutest detail.

Ask me if I'm bitter. Or if I "hate women".
Go ahead, ask me. For real.

 

[penkitten]

History has never been that simple.

Yes, women have been confined to limited roles all thru history, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Men were also confined to roles. Women may have been forced into roles like mother/wife/*****/housemaid etc., but men were forced to be soldier/producer/protector/leader etc.

The critical thing there that feminism misses is that the roles most men were confined to were oppressive too. Most societies have been collectivist and put the state before the individual. Mom may have been forced to bake some apple pie, but dad had to go off to war and die if he wanted to or not.

rex, this is exactly something that should be brought up.
feminism never speaks about the men being oppressed, just that they contributed / helped cause their oppression.
why is there no men-ism in the news?

 

[iqqi]

was that she mistook my disappointment in her comment as a flame or a personal attack on her.

Look, Interceptor, you seem like a really sensitive guy. I, on the other hand, am not really sensitive (atleast with ppl I don't even know). With that in mind, it is easy for you to confuse my response with thinking I felt attacked or flamed. Because maybe that is how YOU feel when someone disagrees with you. I did not feel either of those things. So... stop saying that. A part of me DOES want to pound you in the head over and over and repeat: be objective.

I disagreed with what you said, and told you why. There are no emotions involved.

I disagree with my comment being "condescending". Just because I said SH!T instead of something prettier, well I just can't help it if that gets some of you ladies' panties in a bunch! But since all the sensitive guys here are so upset about the words, instead of the meaning, I will put it a different way.

Men love to feel strong and needed by women.

Aiiight? How is that. They love that sh!t.




Also, the point that seemed to get lost in all of the insecurites, is: there will always be differences between men and women.

Its been that way since Adam and Eve, its been that way since Cleopatra and Mark Antony.


Either embrace it, or don't.

I love that sh!t. !

Learn to understand it, and how to work it.

I do. That is my point.


Now to further upset some:

YES. Iqqi said some of you are pvssies. Guess what?? There are ALOT of people on this board who KNOW THIS already. Hey, I'd be mad if I was you, too.

You can interchange the word for AFC, if you'd like.

I will try not to call you pvssies in the future, because I do understand most of the afc's on here are trying to get better. But to do that, you must understand first your pvssy behavior!

To help you understand further. You are a pvssy if:
1. You hate all women who don't do or give you what you want.
-This includes if you hate a woman who doesn't talk back to you
-This includes if you just did something nice, expecting her to owe you, and she decided she didn't.
-This includes if you think a girl is a b!tch because she isn't a wh0re.

2. You are afraid to be a man.
-This includes if you are AFRAID to do something nice for a woman, because you FEAR she won't be nice back. Why should that even effect you as a person? Why would you let it.
-This includes if you are AFRAID that anything you do would be viewed as SUPPLICATING or AFC. Why the fvck to you care what others view what you do as? Can't you make your own decisions? What, are you a performer? A puppet?

There is more, but the general theme is fear and afraid.

Very importantly: YOU ARE NOT A PVSSY IF THOSE STATEMENTS ABOVE DO NOT APPLY TO YOU. This should be like, "duh", but I guess it isn't.


If you want to disagree with anything I have said, feel free. I can go with you point for point. But don't keep putting words in my mouth or twisting what I have said to fit what you believe I meant. Its like you aren't even really reading what I wrote, just looking for something to twist and get all crybaby about.

If you need clarification on something I said, quote it, and then ask me "Hey iqqi, when you said men love that sh!t, did you mean that you think men are pvssies?" and I can clarify and say, "no, you pvssy, I meant that men love that they are stronger than women, and I don't mind loving it too!"

Just kidding about the you pvssy part.


By the way, I always know I am going to get "teamed up on" and "attacked" on some things I say. I am a woman, this is a site for men who don't get women. ...It is always the same people, and I am no newbie on this site. It doesn't cause me to pause.

I don't even need any of my super-suave-hero friends to jump in and assist. I got this. And they know this.

So don't bump your guns for me, soldiers of misfortune. I gets my rep points. :rockon:

:yawn:

 

[STR8UP]

str8up, i am sorry that women of our generation do not feel the need to apologize for their own wrong doings, and i am sorry that people in general just are not taking responsibility for their own actions.
not all women are like this, just as not all men are not like this, but we always seem to find the ones that are like this huh?

I just know that there have been many times where I took a step back and realized that I was out of line. When that was the case I would own up to it and apologize, only to be met with a blank stare.

So it's disheartening to go into many, many situations where the woman was CLEARLY in the wrong, and get ONE sincere apology. I know I have been wronged more than once.

my hope for you is that one day, there will be a lady that will enter your life that will just be remarkable in the way she lives her life and that the two of you can have something that you have never really gotten to experience before. i believe you deserve to be treated for the good man that you are, the man that this forum has watched you grow into.
i respect you and consider you a brother here on the forum.

Right back atcha sweetie :flowers:

I think we all need a group hug We have some really genuine people here....moreso than i know in real life, sadly.

I have had several g/f's in my day, some of which I lived with for a period of time. I have also dated and hung out with numerous women and met more than my share in a casual context.

So it is disappointing (to say the least) that since I was old enough to date I have only managed to attract ONE woman that i could say for 99% certain that she would have been loyal to me if I were to have married her. And I'm pretty sure that this one swung the branch with a guy she worked with when she dumped me.

I will be 36 years old in a couple of days. That means that half of my life has been spent cycling through women who in the end could really have given two sh!ts less about me.

So do I have a reason to be cynical? I think so.

Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not the kind of man that is capable of attracting such a woman. Who knows. It just seems like it shouldn't be this damn hard to find more than a tiny handful of people in this world who are true and genuine.

 

[iqqi]

I will be 36 years old in a couple of days. That means that half of my life has been spent cycling through women who in the end could really have given two sh!ts less about me.

So do I have a reason to be cynical? I think so.

Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not the kind of man that is capable of attracting such a woman. Who knows. It just seems like it shouldn't be this damn hard to find more than a tiny handful of people in this world who are true and genuine.

This struck me as extremely objective and insightful on your own behalf. I hope you know that everyone feels this way about life and the people they know in it, so don't feel too bad.

Its true that in life we are lucky just to know one or two truly great individuals. If you knew more, consider yourself rich. I have a good friend who always reminds me of this when I get down about the people around me.