Yes. This has helped a lot. It will be hard because even though I know I need to fix this I will still be crushed for a while and will have some guilt but once I get through the process a little I will be better off. The help I receive will hopefully make me a whole person. Only when I fix myself will I see the bad choice I made in her.
WTF does this mean. Am I stupid or what.
- Thread starter jnallen
- Start date
Got closure last night if there is ever any closure with someone that changes their mind like the wind. Now it is time to work on my problems and fix other areas of my life that is in chaos because of this mess. I may slip back into the heartache every now and then and be back on this board but I hope not. I hope I am strong enough to go on and look for other people not so destructive and come back to the board to learn to be a Don Juan. I had a lot of guilt about this relationship and truly did not want to see another relationship fail for me but realize now what I need to fix about myself and also that this woman will never have a long term healthy relationship. No matter how hot she is. I really appreciate everyone’s help on this at a time in my life where I am not thinking clearly at all. Thanks again.
Bungo Pony
Master Don Juan
Just one point to make - this board isn't entirely about getting women. It's about improving one's self, about being able to take the steps necessary to create a better you.
Women are highly mentioned on here because it's an incredibly large part of every man's life.
Women are highly mentioned on here because it's an incredibly large part of every man's life.
I will definitely do that as far as improving myself. I guess what I have also learned is that I got with the worst possible woman for a person in my situation and the more I think about it I was really miserable with her. I was just infatuated. If anything good came out of it I learned a lot about myself and not to be so trusting that everyone cares like they say they do. Maybe I will be able to fix my issues and get with a decent person who cares as much about me as I do her. I don’t ever want to be with a woman like this again and if I do by chance get caught with one again I want to know how to handle these AW/DQ types so I don’t get played again. Even at ending the relationship it is funny the first thing she did was blame me for my bad behavior. Why because I confronted her about her bad behavior and it created conflict. Hind sight is 20/20. She will never change and I want no more of it no matter how hot she is or how much it hurts me to let her go. I will be a lot better off in the long run and hopefully it will not take me that much time to get over her.
Bungo Pony
Master Don Juan
There's one thing that I've learned quite recently, even though it's an old saying.
Don't know what you got until it's gone[/]
A lot of the time, this is applied to something good you've lost. However, this statement doesn't mention if what's gone is good or bad. It's just the realization of what you had after it's left you - in your case it would be something bad. Now that you look back on it, you really didn't have it all that good. This is a great first step of self-analysis.
This is one thing about infactuation, it clouds your mind to the point where you don't realize the obvious. I've been there myself. Providing unconditional love in actuality is not a good thing. You can give love, but make sure you don't sacrifice your own beliefs or posessions while doing it.
I wish you well on your new journey. Look at it as a positive thing. You have lots to discover, you're on a new path, and the future is wide open. That's what kept me going after my "disasterous" breakup.
Here's a different take, that echoes Bungo Pony's sentiments. I think she was the best possible woman for you because she was the only kind of woman who could show you just how far you were prepared to go and how badly you were prepared to be treated in order to keep your infatuation going. Without the relationship that you created with her, you'd not have been confronted with the reality of your experience, and hence learned nothing. The trick is to make sure that you learn what's there to be learnt, don't let your time with her amount to nothing for you.
bp1974
Bungo Pony:
Don't know what you got until it's gone[/]
This is what she will feel after she comes to her senses. But who cares.
That's what kept me going after my "disasterous" breakup.
I feel for you because I am there now. When we moved up here I land contracted my house. We were not in our place yet so I worked out a deal with the guy to store my stuff in the garage. She kept on changing her mind so the guy stopped paying the bill on the house I had to file bankruptcy and now will have to sue him to get my stuff back. Probably won’t. When I look back now this did not bother her at all. It would have bothered me if I did that to her but then she and I are two totally different people. That is just the beginning of the things I have to work through.
BP1974:
Exactly. At least I learned a lot from her and at least she is someone who has four kids and a lot more issues than I have. In fact I don’t think it is possible to get with someone with more issues than she has. I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about things that are acceptable in a relationship. I cared enough about us. She learned nothing and never will. Her loss. Even if you told her it would not make a difference. Stubborn people especially ones stuck on themselves are incapable of learning anything about themselves.
Don't know what you got until it's gone[/]
This is what she will feel after she comes to her senses. But who cares.
That's what kept me going after my "disasterous" breakup.
I feel for you because I am there now. When we moved up here I land contracted my house. We were not in our place yet so I worked out a deal with the guy to store my stuff in the garage. She kept on changing her mind so the guy stopped paying the bill on the house I had to file bankruptcy and now will have to sue him to get my stuff back. Probably won’t. When I look back now this did not bother her at all. It would have bothered me if I did that to her but then she and I are two totally different people. That is just the beginning of the things I have to work through.
BP1974:
Exactly. At least I learned a lot from her and at least she is someone who has four kids and a lot more issues than I have. In fact I don’t think it is possible to get with someone with more issues than she has. I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about things that are acceptable in a relationship. I cared enough about us. She learned nothing and never will. Her loss. Even if you told her it would not make a difference. Stubborn people especially ones stuck on themselves are incapable of learning anything about themselves.
jnallen wrote:
"This is what she will feel after she comes to her senses."
WRONG!
This type of woman never 'comes to her senses'.
They spend their entire lives in a vicious cycle:
1- carefully cultivate a very attractive, charismatic personal style meant to seduce a man at any cost. The man MUST have a poor self-image, low or zero self-esteem and poor sense of personal boundaries.
2- the very moment she senses he is 'hooked', the real angry, hostile, destructive 2 year-old child begins to appear.
3- one of the tools they use is called 'projection', but this only works on people who have a weak sense of self. Projection is when the worst inner feelings, deviousness and moral decay is "projected" onto the victim. Example: If the woman is abusive, rude, angry and infantile, she will proclaim to everyone that the man she is with is 'abusive, rude, angry and infantile'. Of course, since the man has already bent over backward to try to please her, and thus has lost himself, these allegations come as a complete shock. He then scurries around simultaneously questioning himself and trying to right this 'wrong' that was invented by her. Sometimes this is referred to as 'crazymaking', or 'gaslighting'.
4- This type of woman lives in complete and utter denial of her problems. Actually, occasionally she has an inkling that all of this is her fault, which causes a huge emotional storm within her, often resulting in more projection and arguing.
5- Others only see the sweet, serene and charismatic exterior so very carefully crafted by the woman. They can't believe she would be capable of such problems. The man, already at the lowest point in his life is further demonized as being cruel, hateful and abusive by her.
6- If necessary, repeat with a new man.
I suggest you read two very important books to help you on the road to recovery, both available through Amazon.com:
1- "I Hate You...Don't Leave Me" by Jerold J. Kreisman, M.D. & Hal Straus*
2- "Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder" by Mason, Krieger and Siever.
The more you write about this, the more it appears your 'sweety' has Borderline Personality Disorder.
Here are some of the criteria and it only takes 3/4 of them for a diagnosis. Some mental health professionals actually refuse to deal with this disorder since it is so incredibly destructive and impossible to treat:
"Relationships with others are intense but stormy and unstable with marked shifts of feelings and difficulties in maintaining intimate, close connections. The person may manipulate others and often has difficulty with trusting others. There is also emotional instability with marked and frequent shifts to an empty lonely depression or to irritability and anxiety. There may be unpredictable and impulsive behavior which might include excessive spending, promiscuity, gambling, drug or alcohol abuse, shoplifting, overeating or physically self-damaging actions such as suicide gestures. The person may show inappropriate and intense anger or rage with temper tantrums, constant brooding and resentment, feelings of deprivation, and a loss of control or fear of loss of control over angry feelings. There are also identity disturbances with confusion and uncertainty about self-identity, sexuality, life goals and values, career choices, friendships. There is a deep-seated feeling that one is flawed, defective, damaged or bad in some way, with a tendency to go to extremes in thinking, feeling or behavior. Under extreme stress or in severe cases there can be brief psychotic episodes with loss of contact with reality or bizarre behavior or symptoms. Even in less severe instances, there is often significant disruption of relationships and work performance. The depression which accompanies this disorder can cause much suffering and can lead to serious suicide attempts."
Here is another website you might want to read:
http://www.mhsanctuary.com/borderline/anon.htm
God help you.
*a brief synopsis of this book:
People with Borderline Personality Disorder experience such violent and frightening mood swings that they often fear for their sanity. They can be euphoric one moment, despairing and depressed the next. There are an estimated 10 million sufferers of BPD living in America today - each displaying remarkably similar symptoms:
A shaky sense of identity Sudden violent outbursts Oversensitivity to real or imagined rejection Brief, turbulent love affairs Frequent periods of intense depression Eating disorders, drug abuse, and other self-destructive tendencies An irrational fear of abandonment and an inability to be alone For years BPD was difficult to describe, diagnose, and treat. But now, for the first time, Dr. Jerold J. Kreisman and health writer Hal Straus offer much-needed professional advice, helping victims and their families to understand and cope with this troubling, shockingly widespread affliction. (from book cover)
"This is what she will feel after she comes to her senses."
WRONG!
This type of woman never 'comes to her senses'.
They spend their entire lives in a vicious cycle:
1- carefully cultivate a very attractive, charismatic personal style meant to seduce a man at any cost. The man MUST have a poor self-image, low or zero self-esteem and poor sense of personal boundaries.
2- the very moment she senses he is 'hooked', the real angry, hostile, destructive 2 year-old child begins to appear.
3- one of the tools they use is called 'projection', but this only works on people who have a weak sense of self. Projection is when the worst inner feelings, deviousness and moral decay is "projected" onto the victim. Example: If the woman is abusive, rude, angry and infantile, she will proclaim to everyone that the man she is with is 'abusive, rude, angry and infantile'. Of course, since the man has already bent over backward to try to please her, and thus has lost himself, these allegations come as a complete shock. He then scurries around simultaneously questioning himself and trying to right this 'wrong' that was invented by her. Sometimes this is referred to as 'crazymaking', or 'gaslighting'.
4- This type of woman lives in complete and utter denial of her problems. Actually, occasionally she has an inkling that all of this is her fault, which causes a huge emotional storm within her, often resulting in more projection and arguing.
5- Others only see the sweet, serene and charismatic exterior so very carefully crafted by the woman. They can't believe she would be capable of such problems. The man, already at the lowest point in his life is further demonized as being cruel, hateful and abusive by her.
6- If necessary, repeat with a new man.
I suggest you read two very important books to help you on the road to recovery, both available through Amazon.com:
1- "I Hate You...Don't Leave Me" by Jerold J. Kreisman, M.D. & Hal Straus*
2- "Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder" by Mason, Krieger and Siever.
The more you write about this, the more it appears your 'sweety' has Borderline Personality Disorder.
Here are some of the criteria and it only takes 3/4 of them for a diagnosis. Some mental health professionals actually refuse to deal with this disorder since it is so incredibly destructive and impossible to treat:
"Relationships with others are intense but stormy and unstable with marked shifts of feelings and difficulties in maintaining intimate, close connections. The person may manipulate others and often has difficulty with trusting others. There is also emotional instability with marked and frequent shifts to an empty lonely depression or to irritability and anxiety. There may be unpredictable and impulsive behavior which might include excessive spending, promiscuity, gambling, drug or alcohol abuse, shoplifting, overeating or physically self-damaging actions such as suicide gestures. The person may show inappropriate and intense anger or rage with temper tantrums, constant brooding and resentment, feelings of deprivation, and a loss of control or fear of loss of control over angry feelings. There are also identity disturbances with confusion and uncertainty about self-identity, sexuality, life goals and values, career choices, friendships. There is a deep-seated feeling that one is flawed, defective, damaged or bad in some way, with a tendency to go to extremes in thinking, feeling or behavior. Under extreme stress or in severe cases there can be brief psychotic episodes with loss of contact with reality or bizarre behavior or symptoms. Even in less severe instances, there is often significant disruption of relationships and work performance. The depression which accompanies this disorder can cause much suffering and can lead to serious suicide attempts."
Here is another website you might want to read:
http://www.mhsanctuary.com/borderline/anon.htm
God help you.
*a brief synopsis of this book:
People with Borderline Personality Disorder experience such violent and frightening mood swings that they often fear for their sanity. They can be euphoric one moment, despairing and depressed the next. There are an estimated 10 million sufferers of BPD living in America today - each displaying remarkably similar symptoms:
A shaky sense of identity Sudden violent outbursts Oversensitivity to real or imagined rejection Brief, turbulent love affairs Frequent periods of intense depression Eating disorders, drug abuse, and other self-destructive tendencies An irrational fear of abandonment and an inability to be alone For years BPD was difficult to describe, diagnose, and treat. But now, for the first time, Dr. Jerold J. Kreisman and health writer Hal Straus offer much-needed professional advice, helping victims and their families to understand and cope with this troubling, shockingly widespread affliction. (from book cover)
carefully cultivate a very attractive, charismatic personal style meant to seduce a man at any cost. The man MUST have a poor self-image, low or zero self-esteem and poor sense of personal boundaries
That is ok. She will repeat the process over and over. As long as I am not the one she is doing it to. I don’t think she will ever succeed in a relationship. I plan to though.
the very moment she senses he is 'hooked', the real angry, hostile, destructive 2 year-old child begins to appear.
You are so smart. I remember about the point where she baited me in to saying I love you by telling me she was crazy about me. Shortly after that is when she started using the threats of losing her or leaving to slowly break me down. Every time there was and argument this was her solution to avoiding it from then on.
Example: If the woman is abusive, rude, angry and infantile, she will proclaim to everyone that the man she is with is 'abusive, rude, angry and infantile'. Of course, since the man has already bent over backward to try to please her, and thus has lost himself, these allegations come as a complete shock. He then scurries around simultaneously questioning himself and trying to right this 'wrong' that was invented by her. Sometimes this is referred to as 'crazymaking', or 'gaslighting'.
This is exactly what happened and what I did in response. Everything was my fault even though she had the bad behavior. Then on top of that it was ok for her to go out but it was bad for me to go out. Also here actions in public were the good little girl. If there was an disagreement in public she would not participate. You would here about it when you got home. So I am the bad guy she is the good girl. Amazing. Boy did I get played.
4- This type of woman lives in complete and utter denial of her problems. Actually, occasionally she has an inkling that all of this is her fault, which causes a huge emotional storm within her, often resulting in more projection and arguing.
When we were together she never accepted blame. I remember telling her about HPD. She laughed and said whatever you are the crazy one. There is nothing wrong with me. Which would lead to big emotional storm. Then you are in the doghouse.
5- Others only see the sweet, serene and charismatic exterior so very carefully crafted by the woman. They can't believe she would be capable of such problems. The man, already at the lowest point in his life is further demonized as being cruel, hateful and abusive by her.
Like the above states.
Unbelievable
I will get these books. Thanks again. It like you were there.
That is ok. She will repeat the process over and over. As long as I am not the one she is doing it to. I don’t think she will ever succeed in a relationship. I plan to though.
the very moment she senses he is 'hooked', the real angry, hostile, destructive 2 year-old child begins to appear.
You are so smart. I remember about the point where she baited me in to saying I love you by telling me she was crazy about me. Shortly after that is when she started using the threats of losing her or leaving to slowly break me down. Every time there was and argument this was her solution to avoiding it from then on.
Example: If the woman is abusive, rude, angry and infantile, she will proclaim to everyone that the man she is with is 'abusive, rude, angry and infantile'. Of course, since the man has already bent over backward to try to please her, and thus has lost himself, these allegations come as a complete shock. He then scurries around simultaneously questioning himself and trying to right this 'wrong' that was invented by her. Sometimes this is referred to as 'crazymaking', or 'gaslighting'.
This is exactly what happened and what I did in response. Everything was my fault even though she had the bad behavior. Then on top of that it was ok for her to go out but it was bad for me to go out. Also here actions in public were the good little girl. If there was an disagreement in public she would not participate. You would here about it when you got home. So I am the bad guy she is the good girl. Amazing. Boy did I get played.
4- This type of woman lives in complete and utter denial of her problems. Actually, occasionally she has an inkling that all of this is her fault, which causes a huge emotional storm within her, often resulting in more projection and arguing.
When we were together she never accepted blame. I remember telling her about HPD. She laughed and said whatever you are the crazy one. There is nothing wrong with me. Which would lead to big emotional storm. Then you are in the doghouse.
5- Others only see the sweet, serene and charismatic exterior so very carefully crafted by the woman. They can't believe she would be capable of such problems. The man, already at the lowest point in his life is further demonized as being cruel, hateful and abusive by her.
Like the above states.
Unbelievable
I will get these books. Thanks again. It like you were there.
I work in a very 'progressive' office, where my supervisor is a black woman with a law degree. The woman I am describing is my supervisor. My supervisor has HPD with some traits of Borderline.
I have also dated a lot of women in my life and have run across Histrionic / Narcissistic / Borderline (which do overlap) 4 times now. I know this pattern very, very well. The second relationship I had was when I was exactly like you.
You say it's like I was there? Yes, I was.
I have also dated a lot of women in my life and have run across Histrionic / Narcissistic / Borderline (which do overlap) 4 times now. I know this pattern very, very well. The second relationship I had was when I was exactly like you.
You say it's like I was there? Yes, I was.
1- carefully cultivate a very attractive, charismatic personal style meant to seduce a man at any cost. The man MUST have a poor self-image, low or zero self-esteem and poor sense of personal boundaries.
RTEK: Meaning they cannot succeed in any relationship with someone with high self esteem or they are not attracted to people with high self-esteem?
If they are only attracted to people with low-self esteem that is really scary to think about.
RTEK: Meaning they cannot succeed in any relationship with someone with high self esteem or they are not attracted to people with high self-esteem?
If they are only attracted to people with low-self esteem that is really scary to think about.
I have to comment on this as it describes my last LTR. She never wanted to do anything except get drunk and f*ck. Never let me meet her friends, never wanted to go out. I confronted her about it a couple of times and she'd always say everything's ok she just likes f*cking and she needs time before inviting me into her life properly. Towards the end I felt like I was just being used as some kind of breathing dildo for her. So anyway, last night I found out from a friend of mine that she had recently been telling her friends that I only ever wanted her for sex, and I broke her heart. My immediate reaction was to feel really sad that she would think of me that way, but then it dawned on me that she was just projecting for all she was worth in order to stop herself feeling like she might have been the one who only wanted sex. It is crazymaking - any enjoyment I had with my friends last night went out the window as soon as I heard this about her.
bp1974
What she would do is tell her family I was rude and abusive because in from of them she was misses perfect but behind closed doors it was a different story. So people in her family that really liked me came to hate me and advise her to get away from me. Thus giving her the ability to dump me thinking she did no wrong. Them not having a clue that they are supporting her bad behavior. I lived with her brother for about a month and he seen it. Maybe I should have lived with him longer so he could have seen the real her. The more I learn about this personality type the more eerie it becomes. In one of the articles RTEK gave me to read it states something stopped there growth process. Her and her brother were both molested at an early age this could be why they both have this unstable life. Who knows?
Hey, so this is a pretty interesting post. I was dating this gal who sort of showed some of this, but I'm not sure, because I don't think it's as serious.
I met her over the internet, we talked for like a month, then I met her in person. Had a nice time with her, enjoyed her company, and then the next day she freaked out on me and told me she wasn't ready. She's in the middle of a divorce though, so I guess that's understandable, but I'm just wondering if it's because of that (I'm going to lean towards this) or whether she has a personality disorder. Who knows. This was an interesting read though either way.
Up until this point, women weren't confusing to me, but after experiencing this girl, that changed my perspective entirely. But rest assured, there ARE normal women out there, I have been around them all the time up until this point, so either I was lucky, or you've just been unlucky.
I met her over the internet, we talked for like a month, then I met her in person. Had a nice time with her, enjoyed her company, and then the next day she freaked out on me and told me she wasn't ready. She's in the middle of a divorce though, so I guess that's understandable, but I'm just wondering if it's because of that (I'm going to lean towards this) or whether she has a personality disorder. Who knows. This was an interesting read though either way.
Up until this point, women weren't confusing to me, but after experiencing this girl, that changed my perspective entirely. But rest assured, there ARE normal women out there, I have been around them all the time up until this point, so either I was lucky, or you've just been unlucky.
SageOFAllenAge
Senior Don Juan
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Check this out ..
http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/114_dating_advice.html
This helped me to evade the Miss Elusive *whew*
http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/114_dating_advice.html
This helped me to evade the Miss Elusive *whew*
Wow, that Miss Elusive was right on as far as the girl I dated. It seems to be saying that these women should basically never be pursued. I've got a friend who was in this position and things eventually worked out between him and the girl and now they're engaged. I don't think that type is fatal, but it will be a lot of work to make it work and you have to be patient enough and she has to be worth it, that's what I think.
Be DJ.
When i read stuff like this i think wow, about 1 year, 6 months ago i would do the same stupid ****. Thanks to what i read and learned here and from my past relationships, relating them to what i read here, now i have a lot better perception of life, love, sex and women.
Read the stuff here and let time develop your being. Become the DJ.
When i read stuff like this i think wow, about 1 year, 6 months ago i would do the same stupid ****. Thanks to what i read and learned here and from my past relationships, relating them to what i read here, now i have a lot better perception of life, love, sex and women.
Read the stuff here and let time develop your being. Become the DJ.
Blue Phoenix
Master Don Juan
Be careful
Becker said:
But, be careful. IF she's histrionic/borderline or narcissist you're asking for abuse and a lot of pain. They just consume your energy, money or whatever they wanna exort from you!
STAY AWAY FROM THESE TYPES no matter how hot they are, as it was said, they utility is just as a fvck buddy, nothing more! They mind is ruined, they're like zombies! DONT HAVE FEELINGS FOR THEM, BECAUSE THEY CANNOT RECIPROCATE (they're zombies)!
Becker said:
We all have some sort of "baggage" in a way or another. That's why we're here, to overcome our flaws and be a better person!
But, be careful. IF she's histrionic/borderline or narcissist you're asking for abuse and a lot of pain. They just consume your energy, money or whatever they wanna exort from you!
STAY AWAY FROM THESE TYPES no matter how hot they are, as it was said, they utility is just as a fvck buddy, nothing more! They mind is ruined, they're like zombies! DONT HAVE FEELINGS FOR THEM, BECAUSE THEY CANNOT RECIPROCATE (they're zombies)!