Would like perspective from my sosuave brothers

[DonJuanabe]

In cutting ties with my oneitis I wanted to know the truth about what was going on between us and talked with her today on the phone. She was always being so chaotic, hot and cold, making out with me heavily on three dates but refusing to go further, plus constant miscommunication, not to mention refusing to let me kiss her hello when greeting her (once she pushed me when I went toward her). I always figured it was someone else, but it wasn't. She met the guy she is dating after we split. I never imagined the real truth would be as messed up as it is, I never saw this coming and I cannot believe any woman would do this to someone.

Oneitis has serious emotional issues concerning loss. So, she always dated men she wasn't attracted to because breaking up was painless for her -- generally she did the breaking up. She would avoid dating men to whom she felt attraction because if they broke up with her she would feel loss (and they probably would because she is messed up). Yeah, weird, I know. We started dating the beginning of April which was around the time she began a new therapy to break out of this pattern.

On the phone she told me that she was not attracted to me but, because she really liked me and enjoyed my company, she wanted to try to make herself attracted to me. Hence all the making out sessions - but also the erratic behavior since it was not working. I thought with all the making out that she was attracted to me and since I knew she had issues with loss I just figured it was difficult for her to get close to me despite the attraction.

On one particular date, the first half was great but in the second half, which included a late dinner, everything changed. She came back from the restroom and she seemed to be a different person -- the emotion and happiness were gone. I decided to just plow right through and keep things going. Back at her place she was distraught and wouldn't let me touch her. DJ alarms went off so I said if you are not interested in me I'll leave and won't call you again. She almost burst out crying saying she was interested in me but she didn't feel anything. I was confused but since she said she was interested, well, she must be, right? Turns out she was just confused and didn't want to hurt my feelings. We ended up making out in her bed then she kicked me out.

So I asked what happened on that date -- tell me the truth. She said you don't want me to tell you, please don't ask me to. I demanded she tell me. She said when she came back from the restroom she scanned the room and realized she was attracted to a number of other men in the room -- but not me. And with her therapy (getting out of the pattern of dating men she isn't attracted to) progressing, she went cold.

And then she told me that I basically ended up being her therapy, her test subject, to get over her dating issues (she is now dating someone she saw as attractive at first glance). I picked on her for doing that but was cool about it. That said, you've got to be kidding me: I was used as therapy??? What the f*ck is that? How do you do that to someone? And although she said she was sorry, her tone of voice was basically just matter of fact, like oh well, too bad for you, wrong time to have started dating me.

I don't want to be forever jaded about women but this one is going to be tough. There are plenty of posts/articles etc. saying women are untrustworthy, out for themselves, etc. but I've not bought in to that entirely. They are emotional human beings. But after this...

 

[Greasy Pig]

I can't believe what I just read but the positive thing is that your eyes have been opened.
It was cruel but necessary for you to truly see what some women can be capable of.
Tips for the future:
1. She told you a heap of bullsh!t. Always remember, judge a woman by her actions not her empty words.
2. If you're not having sex after three makeout sessions, it's time to withdraw to create some doubt in her mind and make her want you more, or just GTFO. No use hanging in there to kiss behind the oak tree like you're goddamn schoolkids.
3. Don't try to work out why women act a certain way. Just accept that they do and don't waste unnecessary emotional energy on seeking answers.
4. Women are women. They act on emotions, not raw data. They do this to the point of being completely mercenary and disloyal to the very men who show them the most loyalty.
5. This woman's mental state should have been setting off red flags in your brain like fvcking confetti at a wedding. Learn to read the signs of mental issues and just don't go there for anything more than a pump and dump.
6. Know what you're dealing with. Women can be nice as pie one minute and then turn in to ball cutting cvnts the next, for absolutely no sane reason. I assume that every woman will try to hurt me at some stage and then hope she proves me wrong. Better to be a bit cycnical and assume the worst than to be shocked when she shows her true colours.
7. Don't be surprised at her lack of remorse or contrition. A woman's rationalisation hamster can talk her in to taking any action necessary to feather her own nest and dealing with it. The way she treated you is beyond belief, but her rationalisation hamster will have already convinced her that what she did wasn't so bad.
8. Do NOT contact this bytch again. Ever.
She turned out to be a complete cvnt. You deserve better than that sh!t.

 

[Naughty Ninja]

I can't believe what I just read but the positive thing is that your eyes have been opened.
It was cruel but necessary for you to truly see what some women can be capable of.
Tips for the future:
1. She told you a heap of bullsh!t. Always remember, judge a woman by her actions not her empty words.
2. If you're not having sex after three makeout sessions, it's time to withdraw to create some doubt in her mind and make her want you more, or just GTFO. No use hanging in there to kiss behind the oak tree like you're goddamn schoolkids.
3. Don't try to work out why women act a certain way. Just accept that they do and don't waste unnecessary emotional energy on seeking answers.
4. Women are women. They act on emotions, not raw data. They do this to the point of being completely mercenary and disloyal to the very men who show them the most loyalty.
5. This woman's mental state should have been setting off red flags in your brain like fvcking confetti at a wedding. Learn to read the signs of mental issues and just don't go there for anything more than a pump and dump.
6. Know what you're dealing with. Women can be nice as pie one minute and then turn in to ball cutting cvnts the next, for absolutely no sane reason. I assume that every woman will try to hurt me at some stage and then hope she proves me wrong. Better to be a bit cycnical and assume the worst than to be shocked when she shows her true colours.
7. Don't be surprised at her lack of remorse or contrition. A woman's rationalisation hamster can talk her in to taking any action necessary to feather her own nest and dealing with it. The way she treated you is beyond belief, but her rationalisation hamster will have already convinced her that what she did wasn't so bad.
8. Do NOT contact this bytch again. Ever.
She turned out to be a complete cvnt. You deserve better than that sh!t.

You ain't kidding either. As soon as she pulled any of that nonsense I'd be gone. Period.

 

[DonJuanabe]

Greasy: I went NC after that weird Friday night date. She texted me Saturday I did not reply until Monday morning. She replied and was angry I had not replied over the weekend. I called her Monday night and she demanded we talk every day because it's good for a relationship. Obviously the NC was working. Then she went to therapy on Tuesday night and I called her when she got back -- she was hostile and told me we shouldn't talk every day because we're not boyfriend/girlfriend. I can only surmise that, at therapy, she was told she was slipping back into her pattern. In other words, the NC was building attraction and her therapist was stomping it out. I don't understand why her therapist would do this: obviously the girl liked me, she just wasn't infatuated with me, didn't lust after me. For long term infatuation/lust is meaningless.

 

[blueeyedgent]

Hate to keep applying the "borderline label" but she reads as textbook BPD. Run!

 

[The Duke]

In cutting ties with my oneitis I wanted to know the truth about what was going on between us and talked with her today on the phone. She was always being so chaotic, hot and cold, making out with me heavily on three dates but refusing to go further, plus constant miscommunication, not to mention refusing to let me kiss her hello when greeting her (once she pushed me when I went toward her). I always figured it was someone else, but it wasn't. She met the guy she is dating after we split. I never imagined the real truth would be as messed up as it is, I never saw this coming and I cannot believe any woman would do this to someone.

Oneitis has serious emotional issues concerning loss. So, she always dated men she wasn't attracted to because breaking up was painless for her -- generally she did the breaking up. She would avoid dating men to whom she felt attraction because if they broke up with her she would feel loss (and they probably would because she is messed up). Yeah, weird, I know. We started dating the beginning of April which was around the time she began a new therapy to break out of this pattern.

On the phone she told me that she was not attracted to me but, because she really liked me and enjoyed my company, she wanted to try to make herself attracted to me. Hence all the making out sessions - but also the erratic behavior since it was not working. I thought with all the making out that she was attracted to me and since I knew she had issues with loss I just figured it was difficult for her to get close to me despite the attraction.

On one particular date, the first half was great but in the second half, which included a late dinner, everything changed. She came back from the restroom and she seemed to be a different person -- the emotion and happiness were gone. I decided to just plow right through and keep things going. Back at her place she was distraught and wouldn't let me touch her. DJ alarms went off so I said if you are not interested in me I'll leave and won't call you again. She almost burst out crying saying she was interested in me but she didn't feel anything. I was confused but since she said she was interested, well, she must be, right? Turns out she was just confused and didn't want to hurt my feelings. We ended up making out in her bed then she kicked me out.

So I asked what happened on that date -- tell me the truth. She said you don't want me to tell you, please don't ask me to. I demanded she tell me. She said when she came back from the restroom she scanned the room and realized she was attracted to a number of other men in the room -- but not me. And with her therapy (getting out of the pattern of dating men she isn't I don't want to be forever jaded about women but this one is going to be tough. There are plenty of posts/articles etc. saying women are untrustworthy, out for themselves, etc. but I've not bought in to that entirely. They are emotional human beings. But after this...

I know a girl who has some of the same issues as the one you mentioned. She has been in several ltr's with guys that she claims she didn't love and wasn't that into. She stayed with them because she was in control and wouldn't feel a huge void when the relationship failed. I would guess most of these guys were chumps from what I've heard.

This girl never really heals from pain she has experienced thru out her life. For instance, she still struggles with the loss of her grandparents from several years ago.

At one point she is happy and fun to be around. Then as soon as something upsets her and it doesn't take much, she is angry and you can't do anything right.

Its almost like her getting angry is a control tactic to keep her emotions from growing deeper. She has a huge fear of the rug getting pulled out from under her. She also had some abandonment issues stemming from an alcoholic mother when she was young.



This type of personality is going to have to hit rock bottom before they can accept professional help that is effective.

 

[DonJuanabe]

Howie: when we were going out she mentioned that she never made progress with prior therapists but this one was different and she was finally getting somewhere. Before, her life was work, home, work, home, living in isolation most of the time. With the new therapist she started getting out, experiencing life, meeting people, doing things. I think she did hit bottom, found a really good therapist, then found someone (me) who became her practicum subject, and finally started making improvements in her life. With her practicum over I was discarded since that part of therapy is no longer needed.

 

[Iceberg]

Oneitis has serious emotional issues concerning loss. So, she always dated men she wasn't attracted to because breaking up was painless for her -- generally she did the breaking up. She would avoid dating men to whom she felt attraction because if they broke up with her she would feel loss

On the phone she told me that she was not attracted to me but, because she really liked me and enjoyed my company, she wanted to try to make herself attracted to me. Hence all the making out sessions

She almost burst out crying saying she was interested in me but she didn't feel anything.

She said when she came back from the restroom she scanned the room and realized she was attracted to a number of other men in the room -- but not me.

And then she told me that I basically ended up being her therapy, her test subject, to get over her dating issues

Buddy, I'm gonna put this to you as gently as possible...

Why the F**K are you taking what this girl says to you as gospel truth? Other than the fact that verbally says these things, what reason do you have to BELIEVE them?

She only dates men she's not attracted to because of fear of losing them?? You were her test subject? She returned from the bathroom realizing that she was attracted to other men in the room, but not you?? This is ALL bullsh*t and it's the exact reason that you're not supposed to ask a woman why your date/relationship/friendship didn't work out. Because you have ZERO chance at getting an honest response, and a 100% chance of getting some High School drama explanation.

You want to know why things went bad for you two? Because she wasn't that interested and because someone she liked better came along. F**king simple as that.

Stop buying into this deep emotional philosophical blah blah blah bullsh*t that girls spew. They feel however they feel and then AFTERWARD, they generate a reason for it. Translation - There's not always a reason for a woman's loss of interest. But if you ask them, they'll give you a load of crap like you just got. When a girl doesn't work out, just accept it and move on. Don't f**king ask her why. Don't give them the satisfaction of digging for a deeper explanation.

 

[Greasy Pig]

Greasy: Then she went to therapy on Tuesday night and I called her when she got back -- she was hostile and told me we shouldn't talk every day because we're not boyfriend/girlfriend. I can only surmise that, at therapy, she was told she was slipping back into her pattern. In other words, the NC was building attraction and her therapist was stomping it out. I don't understand why her therapist would do this: obviously the girl liked me, she just wasn't infatuated with me, didn't lust after me. For long term infatuation/lust is meaningless.

Right now, I mean this very moment, search these threads for Jophil's advice on chicks and therapists. Every word is solid gold.
The manosphere is a poorer place with Jophil's passing. May he RIP.

 

[DonJuanabe]

Ice: I generally agree with you, and I'm going to get flamed for this:

It was on our FIRST DATE when she told me she has issues with loss and had never dated anyone she was attracted to because of those issues so she wouldn't feel loss if/when there was a break-up. This was not something she told me after the fact, I knew it from the start. Yes, I should have decided from the outset to GTFO but I figured since we made out at the end of the first date that she was interested/attracted to me -- why else would we make out?

 

[Iceberg]

Ice: I generally agree with you, and I'm going to get flamed for this:

It was on our FIRST DATE when she told me she has issues with loss and had never dated anyone she was attracted to because of those issues so she wouldn't feel loss if/when there was a break-up. This was not something she told me after the fact, I knew it from the start. Yes, I should have decided from the outset to GTFO but I figured since we made out at the end of the first date that she was interested/attracted to me -- why else would we make out?

My apologies. I think you're misunderstanding my overall point.

Regardless of when she said it, there's no reason to take her seriously. She's a woman. And god bless them, they just don't know what the f**k they're talking about.

You give these girls too much credit if you honestly think a woman:
A- only dates men that she's not attracted to

and

B- is so comfortable in this fact, that she'd tell you about it on the FIRST date.

Whenever women start talking about their nonsense, just do what I do. Smile....raise your eyebrows like you care....and change the subject. Do NOT get sucked down this rabbit hole where you start buying into the emotional, illogical crap that women try to sell you. Don't do it.

 

[DonJuanabe]

Ice: during the time I spent with her I never discussed her issues -- she mentioned them on the first date and I just acknowledged it, nothing more, and changed the subject like you said. A couple of times at her place she'd bring up her therapy and I would just say one sentence and move on to a different topic. I never got into that stuff with her because I didn't want to intertwine therapy with dating her.

Sam: on that crazy date where she went cold, back at her place when she said she didn't feel anything yet said she was interested, after a few minutes of trying to find out what was going on I said I was leaving, gathered my things, and headed for the door. She followed me and I gave her a hug goodbye. Then she suddenly started making out with me passionately, hands all over my body, and said we should go upstairs. In her room she then said no sex, underwear stays on. I tried a couple times to escalate but she didn't let me, then kicked me out. I now realize that when I was leaving on MY TERMS she was afraid of loss, so she took me upstairs, then made me leave on HER TERMS. What I should have said when she said underwear stays on no sex is what the hell is this, I'm done, goodbye. That most likely would have gotten us naked and giving her an orgasm (I assume she's never had one and I have given total body orgasms to quite a few women who had never had orgasms) would have changed the nature of our relationship. I needed to be dominant and in control but I wasn't -- I submitted to her control of where the date was going and when I was leaving.

 

[The Duke]

After reading the postings I wonder why I even mess with women. They are all crazy and play games. My friends tell the same stories about their chics. I have always tried to keep an open mind, but they all seem to be crazy and play games to some extent. It comes down to how much CRAZY can you stand?

 

[DonJuanabe]

"After reading the postings I wonder why I even mess with women."

Callouses on the palm of your hand?

 

[The Duke]

lol

 

[cremasta7]

Ok, here's my perspective.

If you ever feel the need to ask these kind of questions about a particular girl on this forum, then It. Is. Not. Working.

I very much doubt that her Therapist said to her "Hey, go find a guy who seems to like you and try out some of the stuff we've talked about on him."

She made that decision herself, you can do better!

 

[DonJuanabe]

Sam: "But she sounds like a psycho."

Before our first date she told me, bluntly, that she is still single and unmarried in her mid-30s because she is weird (she used that word a lot) and has serious issues she's been trying to work through for a long time and is only now finally making progress.

Don't use any flamethrowers on me guys -- I'm still kind of hollowed out by this experience.

 

[SoSuave666]

Dude, I was in the restaurant you are talking about. She saw me. It isn't her fault she was immediately attracted to me...most women are.

I joke because of how stupid this woman sounds. How long were you dating? Were you ever exclusive? Did you sleep together? If you dated for over 3 months, were exclusive, and slept together, I have a hard time believing she never cared about you. When you broke up, she had already mentally broken up with you prior to that. THAT's why is is so easy, not because she never cared. This b!tch is just as crazy as the rest. I'm convinced there is no such thing as BPD in women...or maybe there is but they are ALL BPD. I can't tell you how many times women say things like "I never do this" or "I don't get emotionally invested." They say these things to me when I damn sure KNOW they are in to me. There is a gut feeling you get when you are with someone. It's called instincts. All animals have their instincts and trust them. Why do they trust them? Because they are ALWAYS right. How does a dog know when a human is sick? How does a house cat grow up learning how to hunt birds when they have never been in the wild? How does a man know a woman is interested or vice versa? It's all instinct. If you dated for a while and were having sex, and your gut told you she was interested, she probably was.

Why do women say things like "I don't date people I like" or something of that variation? The answer is so simple and seems to be avoided in this thread. They say it to PROTECT themselves from getting hurt. Sh!t, I do this kind of thing to chicks too to make it seem like I don't care. When you guys break up, regardless of who broke up with who, it still comes off as HER initiating the breakup because she never "was attracted to you." You could break up with her after 3 years of dating and mating and she can still play the "aloof because I never was attracted to you" card when in reality she probably did.

Iceberg is right, you can never listen to a woman about a breakup. You want to know why you broke up? I'll tell you. It is the same formula EVERY time. You were a man in the beginning, she was interested in you, you got together. Over time she realized she was your main priority and got sick of being the center of your attention and you getting needy. She then stopped being attracted to you but kept you around until she had another branch to swing to. By the time she found another branch she was completely over you already, making the break up TEN TIMES easier for her. Meanwhile you fall into the trap of believing she never liked you. Women don't want to seem like idiots by picking the wrong man. She has protected herself by overtly telling you she wasn't ever attracted to you when her actions prior to that covertly told you she did. Women always act covertly. Whenever they act in an overt manner, something is fvcuking UP.

 

[vatoloco]

More than a decade ago, my first material was Doc. This was ingrained to me back then and it's very applicable right now:

"Women don't lie. Men don't listen."

If she tells you [verbally or via actions] that she's a fuckin' psycho, she probably is.

 

[DonJuanabe]

Thanks brothers. I've read all the responses and mulled over all that happened and was said between Oneitis and I. Going with the understanding that what women say isn't fact, it's how they feel at that instant in time, I now appreciate what happened and it really helps. I also take responsibility for it.

At the end of our first date, making out in her car, she told me a) she has never been attracted to anyone she has dated (except for one guy) and b) if she starts developing feelings for someone she pulls back into a shell to avoid the possibility of feeling loss. Convenient since these don't mesh. It's more like she pulls back, then the guy breaks up with her because she lacks emotion, and she says it's no big deal because she wasn't attracted anyway. Nice defense mechanism.

When we spoke on the phone the other day and I inquired about the crazy date that's what she said -- I was never attracted to you. Yet, when we talked as we were ending things between us weeks ago, I asked her about that crazy date where she isolated herself and didn't feel anything -- she specifically said that she had told me before when she realizes she has feelings for someone she pulls back emotionally. These two statements from her are incongruous.

Of course, talking on the phone, when I mention specific facts she would say she didn't remember any of it, or it was the opposite of what I am saying, or it was different, whatever. As above, what she is saying isn't truth or falsehood, it's just how she feels at that time. Since she is dating someone and I gave her the ultimatum to fish or cut bait, of course she doesn't want to feel loss or believe she was attracted to me.

One thing I've not mentioned is that a couple days after we parted ways I wrote her an email addressing what she said in the car about pulling back emotionally from me and that I wished her the best in working through it and that I cared about her. On the phone the other day she mentioned that letter, and said it made her angry because it was like I was rubbing it in her face (that was not my intent). What she doesn't realize is that what she just said proves that she was developing feelings for me and that saying she was not attracted to me is a BS defense mechanism. And perhaps, if she felt I rubbed it in her face, at that particular time she wasn't attracted to me because she was bitter, whereas while dating she certainly was (who the hell makes out passionately multiple times if she isn't attracted to the guy?).

But I have to take responsibility. I failed at communicating with her in the appropriate manner, which is not to discuss things, worry about understanding how she feels, or anything else. What I should have done when things got crazy is simply extricated myself from the situation -- no explanations, nothing, just go and make her miss me. Although some might say the best thing would have been to just go and never come back.

Thanks guys.