Would an ADHD help thread be useful?

[Atom Smasher]

Mods, I realize that this post is borderline "Anything Else", but I want to catch the attention of as many people as possible. I think it could be hugely helpful to a lot of guys here. Move it if you must.

Guys,
I know that the issue of adult ADHD is controversial. Is it an actual syndrome or is it just a description of behaviors and tendancies? At this point, no one really knows the answer to that, but we do know that this set of tendancies exists in MANY men who just can't get it together when it comes to women.

Do you guys see value in starting an ADHD thread where we diligently avoid arguing over whether ADHD actually exists as a malady or not, and instead apply ourselves to sharing ideas on overcoming the symptoms?

I have come up with lots of techniques that are starting to work in my life in order to overcome this insidious syndrome, and I would like to share these methods as well as learn yours. It could be sort of a "think tank" and we might be able to make some real progress and make a real difference in our lives.

Whatever ADHD is, whether a real diagnosis or just a tendancy toward laziness, it doesn't matter. We can argue about that from now till doomsday. The question is, How can we as men take the bull by the horns and deal with this proactively with each other's help?

This syndrome affects all areas of life, and it tends to crush a man's ability to relate to women properly. Let me know if there is interest and I'll start the thread in whatever the appropriate forum would be. This issue is PERVASIVE in our society and in our own community, and I want to be a part of making a difference and getting a handle on it.

I won't even respond to arguments about whether ADHD is a valid psychological diagnosis or not. The fact is that the set of symptoms exists, and it causes us to grow up to be socially inept, and that's the reason that many of us are here. Why don't we declare war, get our hands dirty and calloused, and handle this issue? Just let me know who's on-board. If there is no interest, I'll drop it. If there is, then I believe that we will really develop ways to improve our lives across the board.

 

[Lexington]

I'd be interested in hearing your strategies for coping. I'll be glad to share mine as well. I'm pretty much your textbook ADHD case myself. I was that kid in grade school that could never sit still and was always distracted and getting in trouble.

 

[Mister T]

A) ADHD is only seen in rich/spoiled countries where kids are raised with no discipline, and no fear.


B) There are no physiological symptoms of ADHD. Contrary to popular opinion, ADHD is just a description of behavior that has no underlying neurological defects/damage. Look at a brain scan and there is nothing different about it.

C) ADHD is exacerbated by too much comfort, TV, computer, and lack of exercise.


That is all you need to know. Now stfu and pay attention.

 

[handle]

B) There are no physiological symptoms of ADHD. Contrary to popular opinion, ADHD is just a description of behavior that has no underlying neurological defects/damage. Look at a brain scan and there is nothing different about it.

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/39/1/26.full

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...d=458507&md5=0b81bebbcb76cbf77ce96db71cdbb221

I'm sure you have counter arguments but a quick look at the literature suggests that the physiological symptoms are debatable and currently being researched. When you look at the brain scan there tends to be a difference.

As for a help thread, I'm not sure what it would add to the conversation. You're talking about assembling a bunch of ADHD coping stuff in one thread. There's loads of that elsewhere online. If you feel like posting a thread, go ahead and post it... No need to "feel it out."

 

[Mister T]

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/39/1/26.full

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...d=458507&md5=0b81bebbcb76cbf77ce96db71cdbb221


There are a lot of clinical studies that will "show" brain scans that show differences in the frontal lobe activity --- but that doesn't show anything, as all they're showing is that there is "inactivity" in the prefrontal lobe --- in other words the person isn't focusing/interested in whatever they are doing (i.e. studying or getting girls or whatever). Besides, this study was not highly regarded for poor experimental design (we covered this article actually in one of my grad. school classes), and if it was, then there would be certainly more attention to it and the authors especially considering it's a 5 year old publication.

All these studies don't show much as they still can't find any neurophysiological aberrations/damage or anything.

Until a NEUROLOGICAL test can reveal biochemical markers/genetic markers that reveal structural differences/damage to the neurons that deal with neurotransmitter production/relaying then ADHD diagnosis mean nothing as anyone can fulfill the criteria which is overly vague and extremely applicable to everyone in this generation.

Its funny, though how all of this is not common in other countries where discipline is more enforced and kids are not as out of control/spoiled.

Seriously guys --- it's more about your upbringin, and your environment more than your genetics or anything wrong with your brain, Americans are just raised soft these days.

 

[handle]

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/39/1/26.full

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...d=458507&md5=0b81bebbcb76cbf77ce96db71cdbb221


There are a lot of clinical studies that will "show" brain scans that show differences in the frontal lobe activity --- but that doesn't show anything, as all they're showing is that there is "inactivity" in the prefrontal lobe --- in other words the person isn't focusing/interested in whatever they are doing (i.e. studying or getting girls or whatever). Besides, this study was not highly regarded for poor experimental design (we covered this article actually in one of my grad. school classes), and if it was, then there would be certainly more attention to it and the authors especially considering it's a 5 year old publication.

All these studies don't show much as they still can't find any neurophysiological aberrations/damage or anything.

Until a NEUROLOGICAL test can reveal biochemical markers/genetic markers that reveal structural differences/damage to the neurons that deal with neurotransmitter production/relaying then ADHD diagnosis mean nothing as anyone can fulfill the criteria which is overly vague and extremely applicable to everyone in this generation.

Its funny, though how all of this is not common in other countries where discipline is more enforced and kids are not as out of control/spoiled.

Seriously guys --- it's more about your upbringin, and your environment more than your genetics or anything wrong with your brain, Americans are just raised soft these days.

Fair enough, not really what I was trying to comment on. Originally you were talking brain scans. Making a strong argument with a weak example.

 

[Forty0ztoFreedom]

The OP says its debatable himself, but that the symptoms ARE there. Why not put together a thread? I've suspected myself of having symptoms at times.

 

[Bible_Belt]

I've suspected myself of having symptoms at times.


Me too. And then I just get bored of the whole thing and lose interest.

 

[Mister T]

I've suspected myself of having symptoms at times.


Me too. And then I just get bored of the whole thing and lose interest.

A) Sell computer B) Get rid of TV C) Get really bored. D) Exercise E) Find other things to do in your free time.

ADD/ADHD solved.

And if you have kids --- make sure they are disciplined otherwise they'll be even worse off (video games, computer, internet, porn, etc are all highly addicting).

Protip: WHy wasn't ADD/ADHD diagnosed as much before the 90s hmmm?

 

[Atom Smasher]

Wow, I came upon the 10 post limit yesterday for the first time. What on earth is that for?

Anyway, I'll start the thread in "anything else", I guess.

T, go grind your axe somewhere else. Out of this entire forum you're the only one who had to go on a pseudo-intellectual crusade against the thread.

I don't give a rat's ass whether there in fact exists physiological "evidence" or whether it is simply a description of a way of life, bad habits, or a mind-set or even learned helplessness. The bottom line is that the symptoms exist in many men, and I intend to eradicate those symptoms in my life and perhaps help others in the process.

Really, dude, try to control yourself and let those who want to better themselves do so without your compulsion to discourage. You really are singling yourself out as an ignorant blowhard, and you really do think you are accomplishing just the opposite. Certainly there are others here who don't agree with it (and when I was younger and I "knew everything", I would swear that there was no such thing), and they've been letting it go, presumably because they have a life to live and don't feel the same compulsion that you do to try to stir up meaingless, couterproductive argument.

For the rest of you guys, be on the lookout for a thread in AE.

 

[Bible_Belt]

I was halfway kidding. But only halfway.

In my first semester of law school, I got horrible grades. We were graded on a curve, and someone had to do poorly. Of those students, a lot of them went to the university psych department and got certified as having a learning disability. Those kids got private rooms and time and a half on the tests. Keep in mind that it is all graded on a curve and thus very competitive.

I went and took the first set of tests for the ADD/Dislexia exam, which was a personality profile. I finished early, got bored, and then realized that there was a pattern to the questions. In each column, they were asking about the same personality disorder. I wrote out the test key in the margins of my test. When the time was up, the director of the psych department collected my test from me. I told her about noticing the pattern, and she got pissed. She practically screamed at me that I had no business telling her anything about her test. Then I went home to find an email from her profusely apologizing. She said that they graded tests with a computer, but that apparently there was also a hand-scoring key that she was not aware of. She said that I had basically duplicated the answer key overlay, and although I had used some layman's terms instead of the scientific names, I was pretty much entirely correct.

Those people told me that the Federal definition of learning disability was a high IQ and low grades. I told them that everyone in law school has a high IQ and since the grading is on a curve, some of us must inevitably have bad grades. So apparently that means I have ADD in the eyes of the US Government, or at least I could have. They literally wanted me to show up for weeks and weeks of appointments and tests. Miss one appointment and you had to start over. I lost interest in that very quickly, and thus do not have ADD.

 

[Mister T]

T, go grind your axe somewhere else. Out of this entire forum you're the only one who had to go on a pseudo-intellectual crusade against the thread.

Well, I'm a phd candidate, what are you? Just a loser on the internet, am I right?

I don't give a rat's ass whether there in fact exists physiological "evidence" or whether it is simply a description of a way of life, bad habits, or a mind-set or even learned helplessness.

Emotional arguments Obviously you're more irrational than a woman

The bottom line is that the symptoms exist in many men, and I intend to eradicate those symptoms in my life and perhaps help others in the process.

Sorry to hear you are "handicapped."

Really, dude, try to control yourself and let those who want to better themselves do so without your compulsion to discourage.

Ah, another straw man argument. Maybe you're right, you should really be on some medication! But I think in your case, probably "bipolar disorder" meds to be honest.

You really are singling yourself out as an ignorant blowhard, and you really do think you are accomplishing just the opposite.

Looks like I touched a sensitive spot for you, huh? The only one who is ignorant here is you --- what are you/what do you do exactly again?

Certainly there are others here who don't agree with it (and when I was younger and I "knew everything", I would swear that there was no such thing), and they've been letting it go, presumably because they have a life to live and don't feel the same compulsion that you do to try to stir up meaingless, couterproductive argument.

You're just lazy, get over yourself.


In any case, you're obviously a man who speaks from emotion rather than logic, so everything coming from you doesn't mean a whole lot /ignored.

 

[Atom Smasher]

^^
Lol, thanks for the entertainment. I can just see you hitting that "Send" button and then wildly beating your chest and roaring.

 

[Lexington]

Since we're in the business of flashing our credentials here, I'm a 3rd year med student. You can call it "B.S." if you want, but ADD is covered in all modern medical curricula and it is also a recognized disease in the ICD-10 and DSM-IV, which are used to diagnose psychiatric conditions. Just because you don't believe it doesn't exist doesn't change the fact that it is an accepted diagnosis in the medical and scientific literature.

 

[Mister T]

Since we're in the business of flashing our credentials here, I'm a 3rd year med student. You can call it "B.S." if you want, but ADD is covered in all modern medical curricula and it is also a recognized disease in the ICD-10 and DSM-IV, which are used to diagnose psychiatric conditions. Just because you don't believe it doesn't exist doesn't change the fact that it is an accepted diagnosis in the medical and scientific literature.

You're not a very perceptive/sharp med. student then are you? I never said that ADD doesn't exist --- I said that the criteria to diagnose is flawed. If you're going to be taken seriously then learn to read/think --- or do they just expect you to memorize in med. school Must be at the bottom of the class...

In any case, I never said that it doesn't exist ---- I said that the criteria is flawed and overly applicable to 98% of boys/men particularly in the past 2-3 generations. I challenge anyone to come up with a well designed study (not a 10 person clinic trial mind you) that shows neurophysiological differences and/or damage specifically in the prefrontal cortex (which seems to be the location where the differences are being noted in scientific studies).

My ph.d. will be in neuroscience from Hopkins btw, and if you want to talk "shop" --- I can easily give you some scientific articles in accredited journals you can mull over. Feel free to give me a pm.

For anyone who wants to see the criteria for diagnosing ADD/ADHD read below, you'll be surprised as to how easily applicable it can be to anyone.

DSM-IV criteria for ADD/ADHD:

Diagnostic Criteria for ADHD
from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th Ed. (DSM-IV). Copyright 1994. American Psychiatric Association.

A. Either 1 or 2
1) Six (or more) of the following symptoms of inattention have persisted for at least 6 months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level
Inattention
a) Often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities
b) Often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities
c) Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly
d) Often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions)
e) Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities
f) Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort (such as schoolwork or homework)
g) Often loses things necessary for tasks or activities (eg, toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools)
h) Is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli
i) Is often forgetful in daily activities

2) Six (or more) of the following symptoms of hyperactivity-impulsivity have persisted for at least 6 months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level:

Hyperactivity
a) Often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat
b) Often leaves seat in classroom or in other situations in which remaining seated is expected
c) Often runs about or climbs excessively in situations in which it is inappropriate (in adolescents or adults, may be limited to subjective feelings of restlessness)
d) Often has difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly
e) Is often "on the go" or often acts as if "driven by a motor"
f) Often talks excessively
Impulsivity
g) Often blurts out answers before questions have been completed
h) Often has difficulty awaiting turn
i) Often interrupts or intrudes on others (eg, butts into conversations or games)
B. Some hyperactive-impulsive or inattentive symptoms that caused impairment were present before 7 years of age.
C. Some impairment from the symptoms is present in 2 or more settings (eg, at school [or work] or at home).
D. There must be clear evidence of clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
E. The symptoms do not occur exclusively during the course of a pervasive developmental disorder, schizophrenia, or other psychotic disorder and are not better accounted for by another mental disorder (eg, mood disorder, anxiety disorder, dissociative disorder, or personality disorder).

Code based on type:
314.01 Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, Combined Type: if both criteria A1 and A2 are met for the past 6 months

314.00 Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, Predominantly Inattentive Type: if criterion A1 is met but criterion A2 is not met for the past 6 months

314.01 Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, Predominantly Hyperactive, Impulsive Type: if criterion A2 is met but criterion A1 is not met for the past 6 months

314.9 Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified

 

[Lexington]

If you're going to be taken seriously then learn to read/think --- or do they just expect you to memorize in med. school Must be at the bottom of the class...

This is rather ironic coming from you. You're the guy who is spending a whole lot of time arguing about the basis for diagnosing ADHD when the OP clearly stated that he did not want this thread to become a debate about whether ADHD is a valid diagnosis or not.

Even if no one in this thread has ADHD, this is still a useful discussion for "98% of boys/men particularly in the past 2-3 generations." That applies the majority of posters on this forum.

I challenge anyone to come up with a well designed study (not a 10 person clinic trial mind you) that shows neurophysiological differences and/or damage specifically in the [insert region of brain here]

The same could be said for a very large number of psychiatric diagnoses.

You know, most neuroscience profs I've ever had were complete and utter tools. The only good ones were MD/PhDs. I guess it's just something about the field.....

 

[Mister T]

You know, most neuroscience profs I've ever had were complete and utter tools. The only good ones were MD/PhDs. I guess it's just something about the field.....

And conversely, neuroscience people don't really respect psychiatrists/psychologists (we LOVE neurologists though) because they never seem to really follow the scientific method, they just seem to make up disorders out of the hat.

Is that a field that you're going into btw? I know that psychiatry isn't very competitive to get into from what I hear...

In any case, I'm done with this thread, but God forbid you will actually be dealing with patients one day

 

[handle]

To be overly dramatic, I'm done with this thread as well, but I come from a quantitative neurological background and I find it odd that someone who seems to be from a similar background is willing to make such sweeping generalizations when the neuroscience of our time isn't even close to being able to even discuss proof/disproof of these disorders. You'd think with your education you'd be able to suspend both belief and disbelief at this point since _real_ neuroscience is building from the ground up and is still working on how synapses decide to form.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Good work, both Lexington and Handle.

The only thing I know is that the set of symptoms does in fact exist, regardless of their cause, and I have been fairly successful in rising above it. I'd like to be able to help others to start getting a foothold in their lives, and I know there are some in this forum who exhibit those tendancies. Heck, a site like this is likely to attract men who suffer from the symptoms.

I remember about 12 years ago I would observe this guy in my church who used to squirm around a lot. He couldn't hold a job to save his life, and he even quit basic training in the army. He was diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, and I harbored ill feelings toward him. I felt that that he was just making excuses and wondered why he just didn't man-up and decide to take care of business. I thoght, "What a loser". Of course, I was blind to my own problems. I was 12 years younger than I am now and I thought I knew everything.

What I didn't realize was that this guy couldn't, in any way, shape or form "WILL" his way out of his difficulties. He saw absolutely no way out and he was utterly incapable of changing himself. In talking with him later, I found out that he reviled himself for the way he was, that he knew that other people reviled him, and he didn't have a clue as to how to change. He couldn't even get a single foothold in his life.

So as I said in my original post, maybe it's depression, maybe it's a set of bad habits of thinking that have been allowed to develop, maybe it's learned helplessness, maybe a propensity toward laziness, or maybe it's an actual physiological phenomenon that can be called "ADHD". The bottom line is that the symptoms are identifiable, and there is a way to start to catch a foothold in life and largely overcome the syndrome. I'm living proof of that.

I'll start the thread shortly in "Anything Else" and see if those of us who deal with these symptoms can kick around some ideas about overcoming it. The thread might degenerate because of an expected "troll infection", but perhaps some might be helped in spite of that.

 

[Lexington]

Is that a field that you're going into btw? I know that psychiatry isn't very competitive to get into from what I hear...

Well it is more competitive than getting into most PhD programs in neuroscience. It certainly pays higher in most cases.

And no, I have no interest in psych.

In any case, I'm done with this thread, but God forbid you will actually be dealing with patients one day

Yeah because I might actually acknowledge that patients have diseases and treat them instead of just telling them to deal with it. It's a good thing you're not in the medical profession, because you surely would have made a terrible doctor.