World Cup 2014

[Die Hard]

Bradd, have you ever played football in a team before?

Be careful, Watawata. Yesterday, I suggested Bradd had never played the game himself and his response was to delete my post... But really, there's no sense in debating the guy anyway, the exchanges Jaylan and I had with him are clear proof of that.

Let's focus on the World Cup itself instead, the game is heading into overtime and Brazil could very well be knocked out here!!

 

[Jaylan]

Though I think post deletion is pretty lame if true,...can't we just enjoy today's games and move on?

 

[Watawata]

Brazil could very well be knocked out here!!

Hope so! Its being a great game. Personally, Im suporting Costa Rica, now that Portugal is out.

As for Bradd, Im just bored so Im trying to making him realize a thing or to about the sport, since I have a privileged background in that sense; Im not trying to offend anyone.

 

[Die Hard]

Though I think post deletion is pretty lame if true,...can't we just enjoy today's games and move on?

Yeah, it sure is lame. But it's also a clearn sign of defeat if someone does that...so as far as I'm concerned, we can move on indeed

Hope so! Its being a great game. Personally, Im suporting Costa Rica, now that Portugal is out.

Great game indeed, penalties about to be taken now!!

 

[Watawata]

Did you read my post?

1- With privileged background I mean Ive grown in a country where football is debated everyday, I played football in youth teams, I have developed a passion for football. Im going to try to be as clear as possible, so you cant ignore parts of my argument in order to make you seem right, like you just did.

2- I didnt say Robben was the fastest, nor the best technically. What I said was that he was very good in those areas, not the best, very good. I also said that the chances that he can create for his team, the assists, the ibalances he creates in the adversary's defense and his fast dribling speed, great for counter-atacking, make up for the difference in goals between him and Mandzukic. You seem to have ignored this.

3- I also explained that each position on the field has its function. The only position which has goalscoring as the main function is the centre forward, which explains why they usually score more. The centre forward needs to have certain qualities, from which technique is not the most important at all. Strong physical presence and being tall are usually the most sought characteristics. That leads us to the conclusion that all the other players can be very good while not scoring a lot of goals, since thats not their main function. I gave the example of Andrea Pirlo.

4- As for Spain's playing style, in order to apreciate it, you need to apreciate the details of the game. Footbal is not a endless wave of goals and goal chances. Its the litle details, like the great passes and control of the game by Xavi, the passes that Busquets intercepts, the runs of Iniesta, the flow of the game. This is something you can only comprehend with a lot of experience watching and playing football. Its focus isnt the defense, but the midfield, where the ball stays most of the time. They suffer very few goals because they have the ball most of the time, and when they lose it, they try to recover it as soon as possible by pressuring very high with the midfielders.

5- What football specialists are you refering to? Guys from Yahoo, CNN and bleacher report ( your links)? Are you kidding me? The real experts are the managers and the players, and the people who have actually played the sport and follow it since they're young.

6- Have you ever played football in a team? You also seem to ignore this question.

btw: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/worldcup2014/article-2659972/Arjen-Robben-fastest-footballer-world-rapid-sprint-Holland-against-Spain-World-Cup-2014.html

Dont be so close minded, try to understand what Im telling you.

 

[VikingKing]

Why do you all keep calling soccer football? Its soccer.

 

[Watawata]

Its of no use.. I cant believe you played "soccer" for 30 years and still have these kind of assertions about the game. You seem to have ignored the part about Spain, and about Robben and Mandzukic, and about functions of the different positions on the field, to only focus on the Srna part.

The discussion wasnt just about Robben's speed, as you seem to try to convey, but also about Mandzukic being better than him, something that I already explained being wrong in my previous post. You also said that Spain 's and Barcelona's Tiki-taka was boring and comparable to italian defensive tactics. I also explained how that was not true.

If you have played so much football (not soccer) and still have such nonsensical opinions, that you present as facts, Im guessing you played in the USA. I sugest you meditate on my posts if you want to actually learn something about football and stop embarassing yourself with your posts on this matter.

 

[DJFear]

That Brazil vs Chile game was probably the best and most intense of the tournament so far. Respect to Chile, they really surprised with their tenacity and energy and could have won it in extra time. Alas, its gonna be Brazil and Colombia in what promises to be another very exciting and all out attacking quarter-final!

 

[Jaylan]

You don't seem to know what the true debate is here. Jaylan stated that robben is the fastest and technically best player in the world, I am pointing out that he is

(1) not the fastest, dario srna is (link was provided);
(2) Not the top goal scorer in his regular team, mandzukic is (link was provided);
(3) Not the top player in terms of assists on his regular team (muller is, link was provided),
(4) Not among the top 50 most valuable soccer players; and
(5) Not the top player in terms of any of the other measurements of technique.

I find it very surprising that a player jaylan thinks is the fastest and technically best player meets none of these factors and is not even among the top 50 most valuable soccer players.

Watawata, you state your background in soccer is "privileged" yet your conclusion about spanish soccer being exciting was refuted by every major professional observer of the game who all described spanish soccer as being very boring. These articles explain how spanish soccer success depended on the strength of their defense. They (and me) all contradict what you said about spanish soccer being exciting and yet still here you are writing about how I'm wrong.

Where did I say Robben is the fastest in the whole world? Where did I say he had the best technique in the world? NOWHERE

I said hes one of the best players in the tournament and has some of the best technique opponents will come up against in this tournament. I then said that you wont find a player with his unique skills and ability in Mexico's group. Any knowledgeable fan of soccer would see this is true. Mexico haven't faced someone with Robben-like all around skill yet. You could maybe say Neymar...but Id take Robben over him. Plus Neymar did nothing in the Mexico game. This was all about comparing Mexico's previous matches up against the upcoming Dutch. Robben and the Dutch have yet to be shutdown by anyone. Everyone in Mexico's group, including Mexico, have experienced being shut down.

And again, stop putting freaking words in my mouth to win an argument. Ive backed up all my previous viewpoints with legitimate stats. But like I said, it doesnt matter and we should move on. I think everyone on the world stage knows who they would want between Mandzukic and Robben. And they also know who would rate first.

And with regards to your value argument...Considering how much money teams spend on even mediocre strikers like Torres when compared to midfielders, defenders, and goalkeeper prices...its ignorant base a players total value across positions like that. Also consider the fact that because teams overpay for strikers, players in other positions many times can be gotten for a great deal. You cannot compare the money paid for strikers, to the money paid for other outfield players. This says nothing of whos truly more important and better for a team. We live in an age where teams overpay for strikers, even if they are mediocre.

I can bet you ANY amount of money that Robben is in EVERY football pundits top 25 best players of the world list at the moment(and higher than Mandzukic too). I really cant believe you previously brought up what a team pays for and to a player as why Robben isnt a top player in the game. There are so many overpaid non-performing footballers in the world, that based on your criteria, would be better than truly great players all based on transfer fees and salary.

Theres a reason Robben makes many best 11 squads and gets recognized more than strikers like Mandzukic. Now, if you cannot recognize youre in a very small minority who wouldnt rate Robben over Mandzukic...then lets just stop this. We cant convince anyone else here...and its clear youre alone with your viewpoint in this thread. We have all made up our minds so freaking drop it.

EDIT - Those links you provided about Spanish football being boring, have articles on the very same site praising how powerful the system is/was, and how strong the offense is/was, and how tiki taka can be truly beautiful and enjoying to watch. Nevermind there being comments on the links you provided with many people disagree with the article writer.

You do realize personal opinions leak into small time online soccer reviews? Now, when I start seeing people all over BeinSport, ESPN, SKY SPORTS, BBC, ITV, FOX and other major soccer media outlets be in a consensus over Spanish football being "boring", then you will have a point. The links you provided are no different from me finding two different articles on the same website; one saying Ronaldo is the best and the other saying Messi is the best.

 

[Jaylan]

That Brazil vs Chile game was probably the best and most intense of the tournament so far. Respect to Chile, they really surprised with their tenacity and energy and could have won it in extra time. Alas, its gonna be Brazil and Colombia in what promises to be another very exciting and all out attacking quarter-final!

Yeah good game.

And first off, let me say GREAT GAME for Howard Webb. Easily the best refereeing job in the tournament so far. There have been other good refs, but given the magnitude of this game, and some of the behavior going on, Webb did a fantastic job. He wasnt falling for any diving, he rightly called a handball on Hulk, and he gave out cards when appropriate. Howard Webb also let soccer be what it is supposed to be...A CONTACT SPORT. He rightly let players be physical with one another, and called fouls when needed.

Moving on, Brazil is a VERY weak "favorite". The weakest Ive ever seen in a World Cup. I dont know why people call them favorites. All of their games, except for Cameroon, have been lackluster. Poor refereeing helped them in the Croatia game...they couldnt score in the Mexico game, and the only reason Chile didnt beat them is because the crossbar saved them...TWICE.

Colombia has a better offense than Chile, and has a better aerial game and more speed too. Two things I noticed with Chile was their lack of aerial threat...not winning headers. And the fact that it took a lot of scrappiness to deal with the speed and technique of Hulk and Neymar. I feel Colombia have a better offensive threat...and are definitely less prone to get defensive and wait for a counter attack. Chile toward the end parked the bus and were too scared of conceding a goal...thus only attacked on quick counters.

For me, Brazil dont make it past Colombia. Their offense has been inconsistent and their defense has been shoddy most of the tournament. It shouldnt come down to winning by one penalty kick. A World Cup "favorite" on their home turf should do much better. My money is on James Rodriguez putting Brazil in their place.

 

[Jaylan]

^OK so Srna was faster in "1 of 31 sprints". Well good job Srna. Yet somehow just a week ago, the same Dailymail, said Robben hit a top speed of 37 km/h...higher than Srna's 32.98. How about we use reputable stats, like from the company I provided earlier...rather than using online newspapers that contradict themselves. Like I said before...my earlier links use data that ESPN, Chelsea and Manchester City use to rate players. Dailymail cant seem to get their FIFA stats right.

Robben is consistently speedy and with good technique. Where is Srna now? What has he accomplish for club and country? Oh thats right....Ukrainian cups...oh joy. Robben has trebles and vastly better performances on his national team.

So I stand by what I said about Mexico not having faced someone with the combined speed and technique of an Arjen Robben.

 

[Jaylan]

Sure, you can stand by what you said but you would still be wrong

Read my updated post. Dailymail isnt reliable for stats. My previously shared stats come from a reputable source. Now either Dailymail gave you crap...or FIFA gave them crap. And either way, FIFA have been known to have crappy rankings and ratings for teams and players.

Id much rather trust the independent statistic gatherers at Opta Sports, whose clients include Sky Sports, ESPN, Chelsea F.C., The New Zealand All Blacks, Manchester City F.C., and the MLS.

On the other hand, here is the DailyMail;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/wo...int-Holland-against-Spain-World-Cup-2014.html

One week Robben is the fastest at the world cup...next week they say Srna of all people makes him look sluggish? lolz ok. But lets say FIFA got this right, and Srna is faster than Robben by 1km or so per hour, in only 1 out of 31 bursts. That still means Mexico hasnt faced anyone with the consistent pace and technique of Robben. Srna is not anywhere in Robben's class.

Good player...but Srna plays in Shaktar for a reason...and Robben is with Bayern for a reason.

 

[Jaylan]

when all else fails, just claim the statistics have been fabricated!

Its not my fault that your source contradicts themselves. Itd be nice if you did your research and even read your own article.

Anyways...speaking of when all else fails...we already know how you roll. When all else fails, delete someones posts or even lock threads before someone can respond to you. We've seen both those tricks before havent we?

 

[Jaylan]

oh but my source didn't contradict itself, it merely proved that your earlier article is wrong :crackup:

Hence a paper that cant get its facts straight. I didnt know Robben at 37 km/h was slower than Srna at 32.98 km/h. Both are Dailymail claims, your preferred choice of source.

Fact of the matter is "1 out of 31 bursts" at a supposedly faster speed, does not mean Mexico has faced a player with the combined and consistent pace and technique of Robben. Any top notch analyst would laugh at you trying to claim that Mexico have faced a player comparable to Robben so far.

But meh, I wont waste any more posts on this topic. We all know you love getting the last word in Mr. Football. Even though not one person has agreed with you in this thread so far. Youve basically been arguing with everyone from page 1. Instead of this being a discussion and enjoyment of the beautiful game, its been 8 pages of you arguing with everyone.

No need for me to waste anymore posts on you. I need them to discuss the games, world class players, and players who are actually still in the tournament. No need to waste posts on Srna. If I want to talk about a Croatian player, Ill talk about Modric...a player who actually wins big trophies and is a highly praised player worldwide.

 

[DJFear]

http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2014/6/28/5853186/james-rodriguez-goal-video-brazil-colombia/in/5617135

^ What a goal by Rodriguez in yesterdays game! Gotta be the goal of tournament up there with Aussie Tim Cahill strike.
Columbia looking strong, wouldnt be surprised if they beat Brazil in the next round.

 

[DJFear]

Yeah good game.

And first off, let me say GREAT GAME for Howard Webb. Easily the best refereeing job in the tournament so far. There have been other good refs, but given the magnitude of this game, and some of the behavior going on, Webb did a fantastic job. He wasnt falling for any diving, he rightly called a handball on Hulk, and he gave out cards when appropriate. Howard Webb also let soccer be what it is supposed to be...A CONTACT SPORT. He rightly let players be physical with one another, and called fouls when needed.

Moving on, Brazil is a VERY weak "favorite". The weakest Ive ever seen in a World Cup. I dont know why people call them favorites. All of their games, except for Cameroon, have been lackluster. Poor refereeing helped them in the Croatia game...they couldnt score in the Mexico game, and the only reason Chile didnt beat them is because the crossbar saved them...TWICE.

Colombia has a better offense than Chile, and has a better aerial game and more speed too. Two things I noticed with Chile was their lack of aerial threat...not winning headers. And the fact that it took a lot of scrappiness to deal with the speed and technique of Hulk and Neymar. I feel Colombia have a better offensive threat...and are definitely less prone to get defensive and wait for a counter attack. Chile toward the end parked the bus and were too scared of conceding a goal...thus only attacked on quick counters.

For me, Brazil dont make it past Colombia. Their offense has been inconsistent and their defense has been shoddy most of the tournament. It shouldnt come down to winning by one penalty kick. A World Cup "favorite" on their home turf should do much better. My money is on James Rodriguez putting Brazil in their place.

Yeah agreed on the ref. He had a good game and what a MAJOR call he made to disallow the Hulk goal because of a veryyyyy close hand ball before he scored. I went back and looked it over few times and its still not that conclusive if it was hand or shoulder that he controlled ball with, probably bit of both so great call by the ref to see that.

As for Chilean air prowess or lack of, the whole team are full of midgets! thats the problem! I dont think they have even one player over 6ft, all of them are like in the 5'8-5'10 range. Still they fought tooth and nail with Brazil and were inches away from advancing.



In todays games Holland should advance, I think Van Pesie + Robben combination will be too much for Mexicans unless their goalie stands on his head again. Costa Rica vs Greece, two surprises of the tournament. Not really sure what to expect, probably Costa Rica are better offensively but can go either way.

 

[Jaylan]

What did I say about Robben?

Anyways, lets start from the beginning in reviewing this game. First, let me say, yet another good game from the ref. I believe he had a really good game despite the penalty calls and non-calls in the game. The first half penalty would be hard for most refs to call, because of the angle, amount of contact, and Robben's reputation for diving. I cant fault the ref on that though...because in real time, I thought Marquez got the ball. But once you watch the replay, you can see Robben got hacked and should have gotten a penalty.

The second half penalty though, Marquez clips Robben somewhat...but definitely not as much as in the first half. Is it a foul? Yes I could see that being a niggly foul called if it was outside the box, no inside the box. But if it was outside the box, Im sure Robben has the ability to stay on his feet. We have seen him before eat tackles and jump by defenders after being clipped...so he didnt have to go down as easy as he did. That said, players know that many fouls become no-calls inside the box because of a penalty's serious impact on a game....thus Robben knew he'd have to sell the contact to get the call. Considering what Marquez did in the first half, its kind of justice in a way.

Does it suck that Robben went down so easily on a soft foul? Yes. But its well known that penalties have a higher standard when it comes to what is and isnt a foul. Like I said before...there are fouls that happen in the box, that cause the player to lose an opportunity on goal...and if the player doesnt go to ground, the referee doesnt call it. But when a player is outside the box, he doesnt have to fall down to get that same call. Such is the conundrum of the penalty shot (and why I pray for the day when red cards and penalties get video review)

Anyways...Mexico had a good first half...and controlled the game well. But it seemed that once Dos Santos score and they went up, they lost control of the game in the second half. I dont wanna say Mexico parked the bus, but they became sloppy offensively and did defend a tad more. Holland had much of the ball. And the Sneijder equalizer was some great technique. Nothing Ochoa could do about that. And hats off to Ochoa for another good outing. Hes definitely going to get a nice contract somewhere. What a great way for a free agent to showcase his talents...the World Cup...grandest of all football stages.

But hey, I was saying it to folks earlier. Mexico had not yet faced a player with the skills Robben possesses...and all game they had at least 2 and sometimes 3 defenders on him. He was running up and down the wings and into the penalty area. And his play was the deciding factor. The man had a good game. And shout out to Sneijder again for a wonderful volley. Absolute daisy cutter of a shot.

So in summary...the ref had a good game for what could be made of all the games fouls in real time speed. Through 3 games of the round of 16, I have been happy with the officiating. Ochoa performed really well. Sneijder did his part, and Robben decided things. Mexico going out again in the round of 16, but good on them for making CONCACAF look like a contender. Its a shame they couldnt hold things together in the final minutes. They let the Netherlands have too much of the ball. When you get defensive too early, it wears on your defense and youre bound to break sooner or later.

Anyways, hopefully Greece gets hammered later today xD

 

[Die Hard]

But hey, I was saying it to folks earlier. Mexico had not yet faced a player with the skills Robben possesses...and all game they had at least 2 and sometimes 3 defenders on him. He was running up and down the wings and into the penalty area. And his play was the deciding factor.

Only 2 or 3 defenders? That's nothing, Srna or Mandzukic would each get 4 or 5 defenders on them coz they're much faster and more technical than Robben

Man, I thought it was all over for The Netherlands when the clock went past 80 minutes... But then everything was turned around in the blink of an eye, crazy finish to the game!!

 

[Jaylan]

mexico got robbed on that flop. plain and simple.

theres no shortage of people who dont want mexico to win

If you watch the replay Robben was stepped on. He did overeact, but he was impeded.

And what about the ungiven penalty in the first half?

 

[Jaylan]

http://www.espnfc.com/fifa-world-cu..._cid=espnapi_affiliate_Google_World_Cup_Video

NO. the ref didnt call it because he still kept moving after having his heel stepped on. his reaction was way too delayed to be respected.

the penalty call there was minimal contact. nothing anywhere near enough to make him "trip" he was fishing for the penalty all game and he got it.

a strategy that won, but unworthy of a team thats highly touted as deadly and world class in its offense

Again...like I said before, Robben should have gotten a penalty in the first half. Justice served.

The second half stepped on his foot alters his ability to make his run at goal. If he didnt fall, the ref wouldnt have called the foul again. Players go down because refs wont call fouls in the box unless they do.

This has to do with penalties being a serious game changing decision. Because refs want to be very certain of a foul before giving a penalty, a lot of fouls that are normally called outside the box, are not called inside the box unless the player goes down. Players know this.

https://twitter.com/RoycinD/status/483313458893451264/photo/1

Marquez had been tripping and stepping on Robben all game. Should it be ok for players to be stepped on in the box and no foul given? Usually the referee lets defenders get away with loads of shirt pulling, lil shoves in the backs, and contact at the legs that would all be fouls out of the box. I dont think Robben should have embellished like he did...but he was putting up with stuff all game and not getting the calls.