Why would anyone join Tinder just to make friends?

[GoodMan32]

I don’t even want to get deep into this indirect payment argument. Women make “indirect” payments too through time, effort, and resources, but they typically make those investments for men they genuinely want and see long-term potential with. These are usually high-interest women. When she’s into you, she does these things willingly to win and keep your attention. It’s not transactional since it’s desire-driven.

As I said before, it’s mutual, reciprocal interest. A transaction expects an immediate, clear return, like buying something. What you’re describing is covert contract thinking: “If I do X, she owes me Y.” (You’re basically saying, If I buy dinner, maybe I get laid later.)

Anyway, back to the gym—lifting is the fastest way to increase your odds. It directly boosts your SMV by improving your looks, discipline, and self-reliance, all of which build genuine confidence and presence. Women are evolutionarily wired to be drawn to strong, capable men; their inner cavewoman still seeks a man who can protect and provide. Muscles signal safety and strength on a primal level, regardless of how modern the world gets. Beyond just physical changes, lifting builds self-esteem and independence, which are critical because confidence and self-reliance are highly attractive traits. You can’t control every variable, but you can control how much you tilt the game in your favor.

Anyway, back to the gym: lifting is the fastest way to improve your odds. It boosts your SMV by improving looks, discipline, and self-reliance, building real confidence and presence. Women are evolutionarily wired to be drawn to strong, capable men; their inner cavewoman still seeks a man who can protect and provide. Muscles signal safety and strength on a primal level, regardless of how modern the world gets. Beyond looks, lifting builds self-esteem and independence, critical traits that high-interest women find attractive. You can’t control everything, but you can control how much you stack the odds in your favor. If your self-esteem was as high as you claim, you wouldn’t be trauma dumping here daily.

Ok, without getting deep into the indirect payment debate, I'm going to take a moment to point out one observation.

I get your point about a high interest woman putting in all sorts of indirect payments.

An example would be the woman I had one date with in 2023. She (upon finding out I don't own a car) wanted to drive me to work and drive me to an appointment. She also insisted on buying Halloween decorations for me. Last (but certainly not least) she repeatedly begged me for a 2nd date.

These are indirect payments she was incurring/offering to incur (and a sign of a high interest woman), which makes it all the more bizarre she ended up hating me 4 days later.

As for my self-confidence, I never said it's high. All I said was it's higher now than before I began attending organized singles events.

On the topic of the gym, this place has encouraged me to share field reports. Ok, I have some field reports (about the gym).

I spent my whole freshman year of high school working out.

Sophomore year, I became lazy (as far as the gym goes). Junior and senior year, I'd use the weight room at school with my sports team (and senior year, I also used the weight room at school as part of my gym class)

Did working out in high school do anything for my self-esteem? Absolutely not.

Did working out in high school do anything to rid me of my stigma (of being the guy where girls dreaded finding out they were my crush)? Absolutely not.

I have some field reports from adulthood too. In 2017, I went through a phase where I went to the gym. Then in 2022, I also went through a phase where I went to the gym (which eventually became a phase where I bought some equipment to work out at home, which I still have tucked into a cabinet). These phases of working out in adulthood did absolutely nothing for my self-esteem either. And I got no free sex, or even dates, in 2017 or 2022.

If the experience of some men on this forum suggests working out has boosted their self-esteem (and boosted their success with the ladies), I don't deny their experience. All I'm saying is my experience suggests working out hasn't ever accomplished anything for me.

@BPH has told me to work out for a month and see what happens. I've already done that (and then some). Multiple times. Nothing happened.

 

[Clockwerk50]

It's the mental attitude that matters. If a guy is insecure (for whatever reasons too complex to get into here), him going to the gym because everyone says it's good for your mental health and so on will accomplish next to nothing. Most probably, he'll quit. Or go the other extreme, the roid route. If he fixes his self esteem issues first, and THEN goes to the gym, it's a whole different story. He'll most probably stick to it and wouldn't even think of touching the roids.

Holy slippery slope. Suggesting the gym will most likely end in failure or roids is an unrealistic worst-case projection and disregarding the mental and physical benefits it builds is disingenuous and in bad faith. Basically, lifting consistently improves your looks, status, and naturally builds the self-esteem you’re saying needs to come first. Saying it’s counterproductive is like arguing against the very process that helps fix the problem.

Depends on what you mean by better option. If one is interested in sex, then I do think it's the more honest, straightforward and sure way as opposed to dealing with the hoes from Tinder or night clubs. If one's looking for a quality girl for an LTR, then of course it's a whole different matter.

If that’s how you feel man go for it.

 

[GoodMan32]

The following years are when I got date(s), free sex, or both:

2012
2013
2015
2018
2021
2023
and if you count a mini-date after an organized singles event, 2025

In all of those years, I never so much as touched a weight.

When I say working out hasn't helped me with the ladies, I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm reporting on my own lived experience.

It's an indisputable fact all of my luck with the ladies happened in years when I didn't work out, while I never got anywhere with the ladies in years when I did work out.

 

[Clockwerk50]

Ok, without getting deep into the indirect payment debate, I'm going to take a moment to point out one observation.

I get your point about a high interest woman putting in all sorts of indirect payments.

An example would be the woman I had one date with in 2023. She (upon finding out I don't own a car) wanted to drive me to work and drive me to an appointment. She also insisted on buying Halloween decorations for me. Last (but certainly not least) she repeatedly begged me for a 2nd date.

These are indirect payments she was incurring/offering to incur (and a sign of a high interest woman), which makes it all the more bizarre she ended up hating me 4 days later.

As for my self-confidence, I never said it's high. All I said was it's higher now than before I began attending organized singles events.

On the topic of the gym, this place has encouraged me to share field reports. Ok, I have some field reports (about the gym).

I spent my whole freshman year of high school working out.

Sophomore year, I became lazy (as far as the gym goes). Junior and senior year, I'd use the weight room at school with my sports team (and senior year, I also used the weight room at school as part of my gym class)

Did working out in high school do anything for my self-esteem? Absolutely not.

Did working out in high school do anything to rid me of my stigma (of being the guy where girls dreaded finding out they were my crush)? Absolutely not.

I have some field reports from adulthood too. In 2017, I went through a phase where I went to the gym. Then in 2022, I also went through a phase where I went to the gym (which eventually became a phase where I bought some equipment to work out at home, which I still have tucked into a cabinet). These phases of working out in adulthood did absolutely nothing for my self-esteem either. And I got no free sex, or even dates, in 2017 or 2022.

If the experience of some men on this forum suggests working out has boosted their self-esteem (and boosted their success with the ladies), I don't deny their experience. All I'm saying is my experience suggests working out hasn't ever accomplished anything for me.

@BPH has told me to work out for a month and see what happens. I've already done that (and then some). Multiple times. Nothing happened.

Look man, like I said before in another post, we all tend to overestimate our own qualities, especially our looks. You claim you’re a 7, but if that were true, high-interest women would be regularly competing for your attention. The fact that you can only pull out one story from 2023 tells me you’re closer to a 4, which in addition, I have already seen your picture. And let’s be real, women telling you you’re an 8 to your face means nothing. I already explained women say polite, flattering things to avoid awkwardness, not because they actually see you that way.

You might try to counter with, “I’m autistic, I can’t read signals,” but that’s exactly the point, you can’t prove those signals are even there. And from what you’ve written, you’re capable of picking up on them eventually, it just happens after the fact, when the moment’s already gone.

If you actually want to push closer to being a 7, you need to hit the gym, teeth whiten, fix your grooming, and maybe even consider a hair transplant or Botox. Otherwise, you’re just arguing from a fantasy version of yourself.

Bottom line: if you were a real 7, you’d have more recent examples like the one from 2023. If you want more like that, the gym is still the fastest path.

 

[Clockwerk50]

The following years are when I got date(s), free sex, or both:

2012
2013
2015
2018
2021
2023
and if you count a mini-date after an organized singles event, 2025

In all of those years, I never so much as touched a weight.

When I say working out hasn't helped me with the ladies, I'm not spreading misinformation. I'm reporting on my own lived experience.

It's an indisputable fact all of my luck with the ladies happened in years when I didn't work out, while I never got anywhere with the ladies in years when I did work out.

It seems like you are having more sex than some members here, and it looks like you have it figured it out. So why continue with the trauma dumping?

 

[corrector]

It seems like you are having more sex than some members here, and it looks like you have it figured it out. So why continue with the trauma dumping?

In my opinion, the key is the confidence he gained being with women by visiting escorts. He doesn't want to state this his secret for getting laid because he is worried that if word got around about this, it would be againt the rules to post something like that. However, if this is true, and it is really helping him out, then it should be noted rather than suppressed. For example, if you are not used to women then you are not going to be very confident. It also programs him to be sexually confident because he knows he can get some if he pays for it, and of course payment for it is part of expression. When you pay for it using bills that says "In God We Trust", and using the American greenback, you are saying like you are the prize. That is what confidence is about. That spills over to other women and he gets free sex out of them naturally flowing from that overall confident vibe. I believe that is his secret for getting laid with real women in the past.

 

[GoodMan32]

Look man, like I said before in another post, we all tend to overestimate our own qualities, especially our looks. You claim you’re a 7, but if that were true, high-interest women would be regularly competing for your attention. The fact that you can only pull out one story from 2023 tells me you’re closer to a 4, which in addition, I have already seen your picture. And let’s be real, women telling you you’re an 8 to your face means nothing. I already explained women say polite, flattering things to avoid awkwardness, not because they actually see you that way.

You might try to counter with, “I’m autistic, I can’t read signals,” but that’s exactly the point, you can’t prove those signals are even there. And from what you’ve written, you’re capable of picking up on them eventually, it just happens after the fact, when the moment’s already gone.

If you actually want to push closer to being a 7, you need to hit the gym, teeth whiten, fix your grooming, and maybe even consider a hair transplant or Botox. Otherwise, you’re just arguing from a fantasy version of yourself.

Bottom line: if you were a real 7, you’d have more recent examples like the one from 2023. If you want more like that, the gym is still the fastest path.

It's been said many times (by others) on the forum that with the sheer amount of options a woman has in the current era (thanks to swipe apps), you need to be in the top 15% to get lots of attention.

A 7/10 would be top 30%. Even though that's above-average, top 30% isn't enough to make the top 15% cut. In other words, it's totally possible to be a 7 who doesn't get much attention.

I describe myself as 6-7 by the way. If we go with the 6 assessment, my lack of attention becomes even more explainable.

I started out with quite the forehead (even before I began receding). So my hairline hasn't receded as much as it might look in my selfies. I still have a lot of hair on the top of my head.

I'd be curious to hear what you have in mind when you say "fix my grooming." I like to think of myself as well-groomed (hair is gelled, I rarely let my facial hair grow beyond a short stubble beard, I moisturize my skin every night, etc)

Sometimes I don't read clues until after the fact (which is unfortunate). Sometimes I do read the clues in realtime, yet am afraid to act on the clues (which is also unfortunate)

It's interesting how you totally glossed over my field reports of how working out has never done anything to help me with the opposite sex (nor has working out ever helped my self-esteem)

 

[Clockwerk50]

It's been said many times (by others) on the forum that with the sheer amount of options a woman has in the current era (thanks to swipe apps), you need to be in the top 15% to get lots of attention.

A 7/10 would be top 30%. Even though that's above-average, top 30% isn't enough to make the top 15% cut. In other words, it's totally possible to be a 7 who doesn't get much attention.

I describe myself as 6-7 by the way. If we go with the 6 assessment, my lack of attention becomes even more explainable.

I started out with quite the forehead (even before I began receding). So my hairline hasn't receded as much as it might look in my selfies. I still have a lot of hair on the top of my head.

I'd be curious to hear what you have in mind when you say "fix my grooming." I like to think of myself as well-groomed (hair is gelled, I rarely let my facial hair grow beyond a short stubble beard, I moisturize my skin every night, etc)

Sometimes I don't read clues until after the fact (which is unfortunate). Sometimes I do read the clues in realtime, yet am afraid to act on the clues (which is also unfortunate)

It's interesting how you totally glossed over my field reports of how working out has never done anything to help me with the opposite sex (nor has working out ever helped my self-esteem)

The spectrum is dynamic; attraction isn’t binary. The higher you rank, the more obvious and frequent the IOI signals become. But even in the top 30%, you should be seeing enough subtle IOIs to date consistently or have a few plates. If you’re truly a 6 or 7, you wouldn’t be getting total silence, you’d be getting some level of receptiveness. It doesn’t take top 15% status to have women show you interest; it just changes the intensity and frequency of those signals.

I didn’t comment on your gym field reports because honestly, it’s a common trap to expect immediate results. Lifting takes time; newbie gains usually start showing after 3-4 months, and real body recomposition takes 12-18 months of consistent training and discipline.
It doesn’t transform your life in a month. Just like you don’t nuke your whole mindset two weeks into the whatever SoSuave tries to teach, you don’t build a new body or self-image overnight.

 

[BPH]

GoodMan32 threads in a nutshell:

Him: Complains
Us: Work out
Him: I don't wanna

Repeat for 10-15 pages before creating a new thread to continue the cycle.

 

[GoodMan32]

The spectrum is dynamic; attraction isn’t binary. The higher you rank, the more obvious and frequent the IOI signals become. But even in the top 30%, you should be seeing enough subtle IOIs to date consistently or have a few plates. If you’re truly a 6 or 7, you wouldn’t be getting total silence, you’d be getting some level of receptiveness. It doesn’t take top 15% status to have women show you interest; it just changes the intensity and frequency of those signals.

I didn’t comment on your gym field reports because honestly, it’s a common trap to expect immediate results. Lifting takes time; newbie gains usually start showing after 3-4 months, and real body recomposition takes 12-18 months of consistent training and discipline.
It doesn’t transform your life in a month. Just like you don’t nuke your whole mindset two weeks into the whatever SoSuave tries to teach, you don’t build a new body or self-image overnight.

If I'm too afraid to act on the IOIs I pick up on (and then there are other IOIs it's impossible for me to act on...either because I pick up on the IOI too late or I fail to pick up on the IOI at all), then yeah, it's totally possible to be a 6 or 7 who hasn't had free sex in 4 years (and has only had 1 date as well as 1 mini-date since then)

The fact I never night game (and barely daygame) makes it all the more understandable I haven't had much luck in the past several years, despite being a 6 or 7.

 

[Clockwerk50]

If I'm too afraid to act on the IOIs I pick up on (and then there are other IOIs it's impossible for me to act on...either because I pick up on the IOI too late or I fail to pick up on the IOI at all), then yeah, it's totally possible to be a 6 or 7 who hasn't had free sex in 4 years (and has only had 1 date as well as 1 mini-date since then)

The fact I never night game (and barely daygame) makes it all the more understandable I haven't had much luck in the past several years, despite being a 6 or 7.

Since you’re not able to consistently pick up on IOIs or act on them, and women rating you in person is unreliable (because human nature pushes them to avoid conflict, spare feelings, and be polite), the only objective reference we can go by is the Wheat Waffles rating of 4. That’s the best neutral assessment you have.

 

[CornbreadFed]

@GoodMan32, are you black or some non white dude?

 

[GoodMan32]

For that matter, @Clockwerk50, even if I was a 9/10 who got (and picked up on) IOIs all the time, I'd still likely go long stretches without dates or free sex. Because I'd be afraid to act on the IOIs.

Back when I was on Quora, some guy shared a story about a friend of his who has male model tier looks, yet is afraid to approach a woman (and as a result, is still a virgin)

@GoodMan32, are you black or some non white dude?

I'm White.

 

[Clockwerk50]

For that matter, @Clockwerk50, even if I was a 9/10 who got (and picked up on) IOIs all the time, I'd still likely go long stretches without dates or free sex. Because I'd be afraid to act on the IOIs.

Back when I was on Quora, some guy shared a story about a friend of his who has male model tier looks, yet is afraid to approach a woman (and as a result, is still a virgin)

Whatever. You know the saying, acceptance is the first step. When you finally accept that you’re a 4, not a Chad-lite, you can actually start making the right moves to become more attractive, instead of clinging to a fantasy that’s not paying off.

@GoodMan32, are you black or some non white dude?

You can ask him for a picture…

 

[Divorced w 3]

Counseling is a double-edged sword. I've heard your take on counseling before (a counselor doesn't want us to succeed, as then they'd lose a customer)

It's more complicated than that though. While it's true they'll lose our business if we succeed, a counselor also runs the risk of losing our business if they're clearly a terrible counselor.

I quit a counselor after only a few sessions in 2023, for example, because her approach was to throw me into the deep end right away (and because she'd go on irrelevant tangents when I'd mention what led me to develop my fear of rejection, the main purpose of why I sought out counseling)

My current counselor, on the other hand, has the approach of "practice with floaties in the shallow section of the pool before moving to the deep end"

I'd say my current counselor's approach is working. After about a month of going to my current counselor, I managed to get a mini-date after an organized singles event. Additionally, I'm becoming more and more comfortable flirting (even if some on this forum refer to my specific flirts as simping)

As for your claim I'm unattractive, that's where we disagree. I'm extremely vocal on here about my adamance that I'm a 6-7.

The ratings I got on a rating website where you can set it up so that you only get ratings from female raters beg to differ with you.

The woman from a different office in my office building who (within the past 6 months) called me an 8 begs to differ.

The female employee in my condo building who gave me my last free sex begs to differ (she apparently wanted me badly enough to put her job on the line to fvck me)

The female coworker who drew a flirtatious picture of me (and then gave me the picture) when I was 28 begs to differ.

The married woman who repeatedly drove 45 minutes just to fvck me begs to differ.

The girl I had 2 dates with from OkCupid in college, who rated me an 8 and a half, begs to differ.

Hell, even @BeExcellent, despite her badgering me about the fact I don't work out, has said on a post that I have decent looks (and she's seen what I look like)

While I won't show my picture on the public forum, I've shared a realistic AI-generated image of me on the forum before (for extra measure, I'm even going to throw in another realistic AI-generated image of me this time). The fact you call me unatttactive when you don't even know what I look like (you just saw some body shots on a thread) is something else:

View attachment 14332 View attachment 14333

Then here's an AI-generated image I've shared on the forum before of a looksmatch woman (she's not based on any specific woman; just a general looksmatch):

View attachment 14334

If it weren't for the abundance a woman has, I'd be dating a woman in that looks tier.

Or



?

 

[SW15]

the only objective reference we can go by is the Wheat Waffles rating of 4.

I think Wheat Waffles' 4 rating is more accurate than his self-assessed 6-7 based on his outcomes over the years.

Rate by Waffles

ratebywaffles.com

From the FAQ of Rate by Waffles

I carefully consider what rating to give after viewing all pictures from various angles. Usually, as soon as I open the pictures, I will have an instinctual reaction of what rating to give. I then go into a deeper analysis of what features are attractive and which are not. I also take into account the harmony of features and if they compliment each other. Finally, I try to envision myself as a female swiping on a dating app and how she would respond to reduce the impact of my own bias.

Wheat Waffles does try to imagine what female ratings would be. I think his 4 is indicative about what most females near his own age would rate him when using a dating app or meeting him in a real world social setting.

Unfortunately, his daily routine is not conducive to most real world social settings. He's barely going to standard bar nights. He's going to artificially contrived singles events. His daygame is minimal. He has some stuff around his office building, but that's barely considered daygame.

 

[Divorced w 3]

Rate by Waffles

ratebywaffles.com

From the FAQ of Rate by Waffles

oh. My. God

caveat emptor

 

[GoodMan32]

I think Wheat Waffles' 4 rating is more accurate than his self-assessed 6-7 based on his outcomes over the years.

Rate by Waffles

ratebywaffles.com

From the FAQ of Rate by Waffles



Wheat Waffles does try to imagine what female ratings would be. I think his 4 is indicative about what most females near his own age would rate him when using a dating app or meeting him in a real world social setting.

Unfortunately, his daily routine is not conducive to most real world social settings. He's barely going to standard bar nights. He's going to artificially contrived singles events. His daygame is minimal. He has some stuff around his office building, but that's barely considered daygame.

So doesn't the question become: If my daily routine isn't conducive to getting a woman anyway, if I barely ever spit game in person (other than at artificial singles events as well as a few gals in my office building, some of which are married), and (more importantly) the fact I'm terrified to act on the most obvious IOIs, how can we even conclude what my success rate would look like if I gamed more?

Isn't it possible my dismal outcome over the years has more to do with lack of effort than bad looks?

 

[BPH]

Isn't it possible my dismal outcome over the years has more to do with lack of effort than bad looks?

Yes, your lack of effort to improve your bad looks. AKA, the gym.

EDIT: There are literally amputees who come in, prosthetics and all. One of them is even a content creator who brings in a tripod. You really don't have an excuse.

 

[GoodMan32]

Yes, your lack of effort to improve your bad looks. AKA, the gym.

EDIT: There are literally amputees who come in, prosthetics and all. One of them is even a content creator who brings in a tripod. You really don't have an excuse.

Even if I went to the gym, the fact I'm too terrified to act on IOIs would make my dating/sex life look the same way it currently is.

You have better looks than me (even if we have to agree to disagree on how much lower I am than you on the looks scale), yet even you've admitted on the forum before that if you were afraid to shoot your shot, you'd never get anywhere with the opposite sex.

My phobia (which I'm in counseling for) is really the biggest thing holding me back.

I'd rather kiss you than ask out a hottie who works in my office building, who's given me IOIs before (she works in the cafe; I have a thread about her). And I'm not even gay or bi. I just have that severe of a phobia when it comes to acting on a woman's IOIs.