Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS

Zunder

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http://www.heartless-*****es.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless ***** for dumping him."

I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like ****, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea."

If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it.

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here."

The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?"

More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip!

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love".

Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF.

You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.
 

Archaxis

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F**k... I'm so tired of this discussion. Am I "secure"? Depends on what we're talking about. Do you need me to re-engineer the safety systems at a nuclear power plant? Not at all. Do you need me to record your drummer? Sure, I know what I'm doing. With regards to women? I could ****ing care less either way. You should too. I'm not nice. I'm not mean. I just don't care... About B***hes, or this constant, directionless blathering. Man up. Chop some wood, build something, play a sport, whatever.

Guys, seriously... stop caring about this s**t. Go jerk off, pour yourself a scotch, and accomplish something in life. F**k. :mad:

You are all pu**ies. 1. You care about pu**y. 2. This ****ing forum about how to f**k b***hes censors f***ing b**ches. Think about that! The many male dominated guitar player forums that I'm on lets me talk like a f**king man, about man s**t, without f**ing asterisks. :cuss:

Go somewhere else, get a hobby, passion, etc. and seriously, forget about women. They're essentially fags. They care about fag stuff, they talk about fag stuff. **** men don't care about. THE most liberating thing I've ever done with respect to women is abandon the concept of them. It's exhausting, expensive, and a complete time waster.
 

Zunder

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Ah,loosen up archaxis. delete your membership if this site pisses you off that much.
You do make some good points however.
 

Jitterbug

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What you need to get from this IS NOT "Nice Guys are losers / insecure".

The real lesson here is: "Women HATE HATE HATE beta guys."

Those two things are NOT the same.

If you've ever played Fvck-Marry-Kill, you'd know this. It's astonishing how much vitriol and hatred women consistently have for beta guys, even the ones they've only seen for the first time and have no real reason to hate them.

There is no justification for hatred, as evident by such strong words in that web page, of someone who likes you to the point of being clingy. Only women can justify that kind of crap with their chick logic hamster-powered brain engine.
 

squirrels

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Jitterbug said:
What you need to get from this IS NOT "Nice Guys are losers / insecure".

The real lesson here is: "Women HATE HATE HATE beta guys."

Those two things are NOT the same.

If you've ever played Fvck-Marry-Kill, you'd know this. It's astonishing how much vitriol and hatred women consistently have for beta guys, even the ones they've only seen for the first time and have no real reason to hate them.

There is no justification for hatred, as evident by such strong words in that web page, of someone who likes you to the point of being clingy. Only women can justify that kind of crap with their chick logic hamster-powered brain engine.
You don't think so? Someone like that will play on your sympathies to sap the life out of you. Girls don't like to be mean to ANYONE, so they find it very hard to outright reject "beta males", because they know how much it means to them to have a woman say "yes". So they play this passive-aggressive "mixed signal" game with them, all the while secretly despising beta-males for pushing them to a decision.

Beta-males try to force a woman's hand by playing on feelings of sympathy and pity and guilt. Generosity is one thing, but the beta demands more than a simple "gimme", he demands a part of the woman's soul, her validation and affection. Those should be free for a woman to give of her choosing, not coerced by playing on her sympathies.

It makes women angry. And RIGHTFULLY so, because as a beta-male, you put them in a position between choosing to be miserable and unfulfilled and choosing to be heartless and cold.

A beta male is a selfish parasite. He offers the woman NOTHING, yet in turn, demands EVERYTHING of her.

I would "hate" that kind of person too.
 

taiyuu_otoko

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it all boils down to people (men,women, betas or whatever you want to call them) who haven't grown up and are still using the "child" model of the world.

The one that says if you be nice, and say the right thing, and be on your best behavior, somebody will reward you with "giving" you affection and attention.

unfortunately, that stops working with most people (except mommy) when you hit puberty.

Then the "adult" model kicks in and you only get what your behaviors will elicit.

Then it's man up or shut up.

Unfortunately, most people do neither.
 

wait_out

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Jitterbug said:
It's astonishing how much vitriol and hatred women consistently have for beta guys, even the ones they've only seen for the first time and have no real reason to hate them.
I haven't played your F-M-K game -- so go ahead, astonish me. :cool:

And I think 'nice guy' is just a convenient bucket people use to justify whatever they want to. The term is so fought-over it's borderline meaningless.
 

zekko

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And I think 'nice guy' is just a convenient bucket people use to justify whatever they want to. The term is so fought-over it's borderline meaningless.
Yes, I agree. And I have heard soooo many women describe their boyfriends or guys they are clearly into as "nice guys". They clearly are not using the term in the same way as it is here, and that just muddies the water all the more.

I'm also curious about these F-M-K game results. I may have to try it some time. Of course, you would have to know the guys well to be able to draw any conclusions from it.

A beta male is a selfish parasite. He offers the woman NOTHING, yet in turn, demands EVERYTHING of her.

I would "hate" that kind of person too.
Meh, I don't feel that strongly about it. It's all just people, at different stages of maturity. You do a good job of explaining why the "nice guy" (as described in pickup terms) is not attractive, however.
 

Jitterbug

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F-M-K is a popular PUA game. Look it up. You don't have to know the guys at all, the whole point is to see what women think of strangers in a social setting.

A beta male is a selfish parasite. He offers the woman NOTHING, yet in turn, demands EVERYTHING of her.
Beg to differ. Women drain beta males of their resources. A beta's main problem is that he's not demanding enough of women. Their mere presence & crumbs of attention are enough for him.

Anyway, my stance is that regardless of how annoying nice guys may be, as a man, I will not join women to hang sh!t on them. Let the b!tches do the b!tching.
 

zekko

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F-M-K is a popular PUA game. Look it up. You don't have to know the guys at all, the whole point is to see what women think of strangers in a social setting.
I'm familiar with F-M-K, although I've never played it.
Anyway, if the guys are "strangers", then how do you know how beta they are? I mean, you can take a guess based on his behavior, but maybe the guy had shagged three women that afternoon and now just wants to relax and have a beer. Seems like if you are going to draw conclusions about how women feel about betas, you should know the guys involved.
 

romangod

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wait_out said:
And I think 'nice guy' is just a convenient bucket people use to justify whatever they want to. The term is so fought-over it's borderline meaningless.
I totally agree with this statement. Nice guy is often equated to being a needy, insecure chump that has no clue or confidence when it comes to women. This is not always the case.

By trying to win a girls affection by showering her with gifts, insecurity and weakness does not make you a nice guy. It makes you an unaware wimp whose low self -esteem and wallet is ripe to be picked clean.

Being nice and being a man that women desire are not mutually exclusive.

Cheers!
 

Maxtro

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heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys

Can't be hot-linked because of forum's censor.

That article has been posted here several times before.

What I felt are the key points.
-------------

Hideously insecure and anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention.

Exude insecurity

Try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things.

Either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

Desperate to please that they put aside their own needs

Asking HER to make the decisions

Rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect.

Nice Guy NEEDS her

Nice Guys don't like themselves.
------------
All of those things are easy to avoid. Of course knowing about them is half the battle.

The term nice guy bugs me. None of those things describe a guy who isn't a jerk or abusive. The above only described an insecure wimp.
 

DanelMadr

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Jitterbug said:
What you need to get from this IS NOT "Nice Guys are losers / insecure".

The real lesson here is: "Women HATE HATE HATE beta guys."

Those two things are NOT the same.

If you've ever played Fvck-Marry-Kill, you'd know this. It's astonishing how much vitriol and hatred women consistently have for beta guys, even the ones they've only seen for the first time and have no real reason to hate them.

There is no justification for hatred, as evident by such strong words in that web page, of someone who likes you to the point of being clingy. Only women can justify that kind of crap with their chick logic hamster-powered brain engine.
Women certainly don't love so called beta guys for obvious reasons.

And you are right, some of them even HATE them and DESPISE them so much.
Not because they try to seduce them or get friendly with them but just because they breath the same air.
I know these women...they say about other men..."Have you seen him, he is so ugly or weird or dumb or overly shy. I just cant stand him." And they are talking about married coworkers which never said a wrong word to them.

These women have one in common...no man wants to date them. They are full of poison. Stupid witches. Like those angry "nice guys" hating every b!tch out there.

People are stupid. They envy, they hate and they are drowning in their own poisonous spit. There are decent men and women out there.I know a few.
 

zekko

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I totally agree with this statement. Nice guy is often equated to being a needy, insecure chump that has no clue or confidence when it comes to women. This is not always the case.
Yeah, I really hate the term "nice guy", it's not accurate at all. The way it is used in pickup terms, it doesn't describe a nice guy at all, it describes a "needy wimp".

I know these women...they say about other men..."Have you seen him, he is so ugly or weird or dumb or overly shy. I just cant stand him." And they are talking about married coworkers which never said a wrong word to them.
One thing I've noticed is how women will verbally skewer guys who behave in an alpha type way also. Like if a guy is dominant and likes to run things, the women will be resentful and say things like "who does he think he is, telling me what to do, he thinks everybody has to do what he says, he thinks he's God's gift to women". I don't know, maybe their vaginas are tingling while they're saying it, but it sure doesn't sound that way to me.
 

Blue Phoenix

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Nice guys make less than 'more dominant' men

http://www.ctv.ca/generic/generated/static/business/article2127149.html

Women who are more aggressive tend to be evaluated more negatively where men who are aggressive are evaluated positively and men who were agreeable got a lot lower evaluation. “This bolsters the argument that some of this is based on gender stereotypes,” Prof. Hurst said of the findings that have been accepted for publication in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology and will be presented at the American Management Association meeting next week.

“We shouldn’t take this literally, but it appears the ability to stand up for yourself and advocate for your interests does get you noticed for promotion in an organization,” she said. There are previous findings in the work research literature that suggests men who behave in a more dominant fashion are perceived to be more competent, she noted.
As it was said, relationship is a lot like business. You can apply most knowledge from business to your romantic life.
 

Scaramouche

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Dear Zunder,
another good post.....Most of the Posts re-enunciate what is a self evident truth about "Nice Guys",they are social losers....In general those who succeed best in Society are "Prvicks",examine some of your own Heroes,outside of sports idols most of them make Cesare Borgia seem almost a Gentleman....So therein lies the fundamental reason for this Universal behaviour....Women are hard wired for rejecting Betas because they will not provide the best environment for nurturing the strongest child,who will grow to lead the Tribe,and spread His (Her) genes....So "Treat 'em rough,ride 'em hard...By the way,it is really nice to see Tokyo back again,I have missed him.
 

Lexington

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Most guys who are a$$holes are a$$holes because they can be. Their value is high enough that these negative qualities are tolerated. The stereotypical AFC nice guy is nice because he basically has to be.

To use a sports analogy. Take a look at Randy Moss. This guy is by all accounts a grade A prick. He's a real poison in the locker room. At times, he just flat out quit and refused to give his best effort. He got into feud after feud. But teams put up with it and continued to pay him millions because he was the most talented wide receiver in the league.

But now, age has caught up with him and he's a step slower than he used to be. Now, teams aren't willing to put up with his sh*t because he just doesn't produce enough on the field to justify it. So, he's "retired" out of necessity because no one wants him anymore.

A lot of guys think that girls like a$$holes BECAUSE they are a$$holes, when this is usually not the case. These guys usually have other things going for them such as looks, charisma, game etc. And because of these other qualities, girls will put up with their abuse.

Basically, if you're super handsome, powerful rich and have a huge social circle, a lot of girls will be very strongly attracted to you. You can get away with being a prick because your attractive qualities will maintain a girl's interest.

On the other hand, if you're morbidly obese, broke and you have no friends, being a prick won't even get you the time of day from a decent girl unless you pay.

Being an a$$hole may be correlated with being good with the ladies but it's not necessarily the cause.
 

Stagger Lee

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Lexington said:
Most guys who are a$$holes are a$$holes because they can be. Their value is high enough that these negative qualities are tolerated. The stereotypical AFC nice guy is nice because he basically has to be.

To use a sports analogy. Take a look at Randy Moss. This guy is by all accounts a grade A prick. He's a real poison in the locker room. At times, he just flat out quit and refused to give his best effort. He got into feud after feud. But teams put up with it and continued to pay him millions because he was the most talented wide receiver in the league.

But now, age has caught up with him and he's a step slower than he used to be. Now, teams aren't willing to put up with his sh*t because he just doesn't produce enough on the field to justify it. So, he's "retired" out of necessity because no one wants him anymore.

A lot of guys think that girls like a$$holes BECAUSE they are a$$holes, when this is usually not the case. These guys usually have other things going for them such as looks, charisma, game etc. And because of these other qualities, girls will put up with their abuse.

Basically, if you're super handsome, powerful rich and have a huge social circle, a lot of girls will be very strongly attracted to you. You can get away with being a prick because your attractive qualities will maintain a girl's interest.

On the other hand, if you're morbidly obese, broke and you have no friends, being a prick won't even get you the time of day from a decent girl unless you pay.

Being an a$$hole may be correlated with being good with the ladies but it's not necessarily the cause.
Exactly. You are on to the real matter. Women are attracted (or not attracted) to a certain guy for reasons other than or inspite of him beng an "a$$hole" or "nice". The nice guy is a loser or the a$$hole is the winner label is just people putting too much emphasis on words and behaviors which aren't really the active ingredient in attraction, but falsely believing it is.

A guy who is not attractive to girls for those other reasons who behaves like an a$$hole thinking it will get girls is considered by girls as an a$$hole, and if he acts like a truely nice guy he's still not attractive. So the nice guy who may truely be a nice guy gets demonized in the PUA theory. And if a guy is attractive to girls for those other reasons and acts like an a$$hole he is not considered an a$$hole by girls and if he acts nice he's still attractive and probably simply considered also LTR material.

I think it is the PUA community in its faulty attribution of what causes attraction along with seeing attractive guys behaving like a$$holes because they can get away with it and seeing guys who are unattractive failing with nice behavior, concludes that the difference is in being an a$$hole vs. a nice guy. Further, they justify this by redefining nice as really bad and a$$hole as really good. You know what, plenty of guys put on the a$$hole act and fail even worse than before.

And as others mentioned women really do despise guys they are not attracted to and despise them even more when they happen to be good, nice guys and the women have even less justification for hating them. And as FMK demonstrates women come to this conclusion quickly based on appearance and what they visual see mostly. Talk about judging a book by it's conver and jumping to conclusions.

Having said that there is some truth to women not appreciating nice and eating up a$$hole behavior. But it is not the fundamental universal attractor. And it's not all because a "nice guy" isn't really nice and an "a$$hole" isn't really an a$$hole. It's more to do with her feeling some anxiety, jealousy, wanting a challenge, she wants to be a treated liek a slut etc. Not exactly virtuous things.
 

sharkbeat

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Having been a nice guy, I kind of understand the underlying "nice" persona. At least for me, it's not that I was trying to buy her affection, or avoiding conflict because I was too scared to voice my opinion. There were lot of times where I simply didn't care. However this 'not caring' attitude has been costing me numerous dates and lays.

Here are two examples:
1. Asking where we should be eating.
Girls never say a thing about where they want to eat on a date. Ever. Even if she's already your LTR girlfriend, she still has to ask you where you want to eat. Sometimes, you don't really care whether it's mexican, japanese, dennys, chinese, or what not. You really don't. Really, men only care what's filling. Not all of us are Iron Chef judges. So when we say "I don't care", it's not that we can't lead, or afraid of conflict, it's because we really don't give a ****ing care what we are eating.

2. Compromising
So I asked this girl out to lunch one day. She agreed. On the day we should be having lunch, I texted her in the morning, "hey let's eat at 11:30. what's good in your area", to which she called me and proposed 12:30 because she has to run some errands. So I was thinking "well I gotta pick up a friend at the airport at 3, so 12:30 is still okay." So I said OK to her. I called her at 12, no response. Obviously, she flaked. Texted her two days later, no response.

TBH, whenever I think about it, it's still a big WTF to me even to this day of this bizzare women's perception. It's almost that we gotta disagree to everything they say just for the sake of arguing and make them pissed at us. Arguing tingles their gina, somehow.

Women are the most insecure being, but men gotta pay for the price. Here's one from the article:

They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.
I've heard this before from my gf. She'd ask me for every single little thing that it sometimes annoyed the hell out of me. Back to example #1, eating out. She always asks me "what are you in the mood for?" Half the time, I said what I wanted (Mexican, Burgers, etc.), half the other time, I asked "do you have any preference?" because I didn't have one. She asked me back, "No, I want to know your preference." So I asked her back, "why is that the man always has to choose? Don't you have a preference or an opinion?". She then replied the same thing the article said "if you don't like the food I picked, you are going to blame it on me." I was just hell confused.

No, it's not that 'nice guys' cannot lead, it's because women do not want to be blamed for relationship failure, and nice guys behaviors just leave way too many openings for the blame to land on her laps. In other words, nice guys play things 'safe'. If something bad happens, the blame could be either on him or her, and women hate that. Bad guys, on the other hand, clearly speak his mind and do what he wants. So if something bad happens, she can obviously point out "because he did it." No, it's not because bad guys can lead, it's because it makes her feel safe.

It always has to be our fault. Just how it's our fault when we ****ed her for the first time, it also has to be our fault if the relationship gone to hell.
 
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