which programming language should I learn?

[Stud]

where would be the best place to learn any of the languages listed on this thread, using online resources or books (basically excluding formal classes) only?

another interesting question. to those proficient in programming, how did you gain your knowledge? through formal education, on your own, a mix of the two, or what other means did you use?

 

[Teflon_Mcgee]

where would be the best place to learn any of the languages listed on this thread, using online resources or books (basically excluding formal classes) only?

another interesting question. to those proficient in programming, how did you gain your knowledge? through formal education, on your own, a mix of the two, or what other means did you use?

I think one or two structured classes would be helpful.

But really you can learn just by doing it and looking on the internet when you get stuck.

Basic syntax is the same for Java, C/C++, C#.

Almost everything else is the same too.


I'd recommend you pick up any book on basic programming and "The Object of Java." That book is a good intro to object oriented programming regardless of the language (though there are some Java specific topics.)

Once you're good with the basics and objects, get a book on data structures and algorithms. It'll help you understand the innerworkings a little.

 

[backbreaker]

dont' ever waste money going to school leanring something you can learn for free at your local barnes and noble.

I learned flash the same way I learned how to build pc's.. freaking around with it and working though my mistakes.

 

[bigjohnson]

dont' ever waste money going to school leanring something you can learn for free at your local barnes and noble.

I learned flash the same way I learned how to build pc's.. freaking around with it and working though my mistakes.

True to a point but if a person wants to get past simple scripting teaching oneself proper comp sci things like formal analysis of algorithm complexity or compiler design will be a pretty tough row to hoe.

 

[speakeasy]

I learned flash by reading the book. In my college flash class(I studied design in school), I was showing sh*t to my professor and he was learning from me, lol. I still haven't learned AS3, been meaning to do that forever. Flash has changed so much since Flash 4 which is when I jumped in about a decade ago. It's a hell of a lot harder now than it used to be.

 

[backbreaker]

True to a point but if a person wants to get past simple scripting teaching oneself proper comp sci things like formal analysis of algorithm complexity or compiler design will be a pretty tough row to hoe.

but it can be done and not worth paying 50k for which is what you would pay in tutition.

I have a flex programmer and a asp.net programmer that can run circles around anyone I have ever seen and neither went to school. One didn't even graduate from high school. And when I say run circles around I mean, WAY around. we built http://www.officeagneda.com which is a video conference site, the majority of the stie was built by a guy who didnt' pass the 11th grade. (login jjj pass jjj). that's a 15,000 dollar website.

 

[speakeasy]

Hey BB, when you bill clients, do you give them an estimate of total cost up front, or do you go by an hourly rate? I've done freelance design work myself and I often have a hell of a time estimating what something will cost upfront. Some clients I've been lucky and not had to give upfront cost and just gave them an hourly rate and sent them the bill at the end with no problem, but many want to know what it's going to cost before you start and want a flat negotiated price for everything before they sign a contract.

 

[backbreaker]

it depends on the client.

more times than not a flat rate. I can send you a sample proposal we put together for a client to show you how we bill out. But we basically simply each task that has to be done and put an hour est on that task and then bill it out. WE generally know how long each task is going to take.

I don't like doing hourly rate beucase, even when you do hourly, the client has an idea of what they want to spend and has an idea of how long they thnik it should take.

we had a client last year we build a flash animation project for, he had to go by the hour. Well, he kept asking for revisions and we kept billing him. ended up being about 9 grand bill. now he's pissy about it. we would have chargedhim 6 grand to do it.

Now if I have a client that I know is revision happy and is never satisfed than yes, by the hour, that way he has something to think about before he submits revisions.

it's just better to get the price out the way. I will only deal with a specific ty pe of client. I dont' deal with newbs or non tech people for the most part. I deal with people who know the value of good work, and when i send them a 40 page propsal for a 7 grand job, wont' come back and say something stupid like "yeah, but this one comany can do it for 1/4th of what you can!"yeah. we don't deal with those people. Very picky about who we work with.

price is not the main issue of the people I deal with. it's an issue make no mistake but quality of work is the main issue. I want to deal with people who want to pay for good work.

 

[speakeasy]

it depends on the client.

more times than not a flat rate. I can send you a sample proposal we put together for a client to show you how we bill out. But we basically simply each task that has to be done and put an hour est on that task and then bill it out. WE generally know how long each task is going to take.

I don't like doing hourly rate beucase, even when you do hourly, the client has an idea of what they want to spend and has an idea of how long they thnik it should take.

we had a client last year we build a flash animation project for, he had to go by the hour. Well, he kept asking for revisions and we kept billing him. ended up being about 9 grand bill. now he's pissy about it. we would have chargedhim 6 grand to do it.

Now if I have a client that I know is revision happy and is never satisfed than yes, by the hour, that way he has something to think about before he submits revisions.

it's just better to get the price out the way. I will only deal with a specific ty pe of client. I dont' deal with newbs or non tech people for the most part. I deal with people who know the value of good work, and when i send them a 40 page propsal for a 7 grand job, wont' come back and say something stupid like "yeah, but this one comany can do it for 1/4th of what you can!"yeah. we don't deal with those people. Very picky about who we work with.

price is not the main issue of the people I deal with. it's an issue make no mistake but quality of work is the main issue. I want to deal with people who want to pay for good work.

Dude, I totally know what you're talking about, the type of clients that don't know the quality of good work. It's frustrating. But I feel like with the economy, sometimes I have to bite the bullet. I want to get to that level where I can be selective. I've been kind of d*cking around with freelancing, but now I'm at the point where I'm ready to start taking this sh*t to a serious level.

 

[bigjohnson]

but it can be done and not worth paying 50k for which is what you would pay in tutition.

I have a flex programmer and a asp.net programmer

I mostly taught myself, but I also realize that I traded a lot of my time for not spending money. I didn't have the money, so I *had* to do it this way. If a person can go to school then I think it's not something to dismiss out of hand.

Flash, ASP, PHP, etc are pretty ... trying to come up with an inoffensive way to say lame .... "programming" platforms. It's not that those tasks are unimportant, but to compare the skillset of a PHP or flash guy to a person who writes Windows file filter drivers or secure well designed services is really comparing Welchs grape juice to Champagne.

Even a solid native code app developer has to have a lot more on the ball than the vast majority of web-authors.

They shouldn't even really call web development programming IMO.

 

[speakeasy]

They shouldn't even really call web development programming IMO.

Sounds like snobbery here. Why isn't it programming? There are manipulable variables, data can be read and written, there is if/then logic to run tasks and object oriented functions. Even flash actionscript is object-oriented and must be compiled. Sounds like programming to me.

 

[backbreaker]

I mostly taught myself, but I also realize that I traded a lot of my time for not spending money. I didn't have the money, so I *had* to do it this way. If a person can go to school then I think it's not something to dismiss out of hand.

Flash, ASP, PHP, etc are pretty ... trying to come up with an inoffensive way to say lame .... "programming" platforms. It's not that those tasks are unimportant, but to compare the skillset of a PHP or flash guy to a person who writes Windows file filter drivers or secure well designed services is really comparing Welchs grape juice to Champagne.

Even a solid native code app developer has to have a lot more on the ball than the vast majority of web-authors.

They shouldn't even really call web development programming IMO.

what you don't seem to realize is that in the business world, customers don't give a **** how complex something is to the other.

pepole equate smarter with more money. the people who make the most money are not the smartest, it'st he people who do the best job of offering what people are looking for.

I am turning away business, lots of it, with our "subpar" languages.. and at the end of the day that's all that matters.

IN fact I'm probably about to lay off our C#. programmer becuase while he is smart, we can't get work for him.

on the other hand, I have 3 php guys and I am looking for another. ranking in money.

 

[backbreaker]

Dude, I totally know what you're talking about, the type of clients that don't know the quality of good work. It's frustrating. But I feel like with the economy, sometimes I have to bite the bullet. I want to get to that level where I can be selective. I've been kind of d*cking around with freelancing, but now I'm at the point where I'm ready to start taking this sh*t to a serious level.

I will take a job that is below in budget if I like the project or I think it can add value to our portfolio. how much money we make is just one thing I am concerned about.. I took some pretty craptastic deals first starting out to get our portfolio where it is now.

We are about to do a job that is every bit of a 2,500 dollar job for 600 dollars, simply becuase it's a site that is not in our portfolio and it's a site that I know once in our portfolio I will make the money back in no time (real estate mls site)

usually we do busiess with larger web development compaines who just feed us work. They charge 100 an hour they outsource it for half, we do good work, they keep coming back. very benefiting.

Just to address bigjohnson, I work 4 hours a day with this business give or take and I take home 10 grand a month from this business alone and could be more if I were greedy. not half bad for throwing out a bunch of subpar languges.

 

[bigjohnson]

Sounds like snobbery here. Why isn't it programming? There are manipulable variables, data can be read and written, there is if/then logic to run tasks and object oriented functions. Even flash actionscript is object-oriented and must be compiled. Sounds like programming to me.

I'm responding specifically to the "you can learn it yourself" part of the discussion.

what you don't seem to realize is that in the business world, customers don't give a **** how complex something is to the other.

I understand perfectly, all I'm saying is that if he wants to do something more complex he might have a bigger chance of finding some formal education useful. I would have.

pepole equate smarter with more money. the people who make the most money are not the smartest, it'st he people who do the best job of offering what people are looking for.

I am turning away business, lots of it, with our "subpar" languages.. and at the end of the day that's all that matters.

IN fact I'm probably about to lay off our C#. programmer becuase while he is smart, we can't get work for him.

on the other hand, I have 3 php guys and I am looking for another. ranking in money.

That's a different discussion and I understand it completely. Thus "It's not that those tasks are unimportant, but to compare the skillset of a PHP or flash guy to a person who writes Windows file filter drivers or secure well designed services is really comparing Welchs grape juice to Champagne."

Web layout bores me. Some people find it fascinating.

I'm just saying that the OP needs to understand that "software development" is a very wide range of disparate but related activities and he probably needs to know more before he can really ask what MORE he needs to know.


Also, a guy who can write device drivers for NVIDIA (for example) will be fairly highly compensated in the trade. A PHP developer will also be well paid but in my experience, web devs are not hard to find, whereas a kernel dev or systems dev who's competent is pretty tough.

Just to address bigjohnson, I work 4 hours a day with this business give or take and I take home 10 grand a month from this business alone and could be more if I were greedy. not half bad for throwing out a bunch of subpar languges.

Haha, and you have a similar compensation package for your PHP wranglers?



EDIT:

Point being of course that you make that because you are an entrepreneur and a successful businessman, not just because you taught yourself Flash and PHP. Just about any software engineering job should make more than that, but will of course require more than 20 hours a week as well.

 

[bigjohnson]

where would be the best place to learn any of the languages listed on this thread, using online resources or books (basically excluding formal classes) only?

another interesting question. to those proficient in programming, how did you gain your knowledge? through formal education, on your own, a mix of the two, or what other means did you use?

I've been programming for fun since I was 11 or 12. Eventually I went pro. Visual Studio supports a lot of languages and MSDN has a lot of resources, or you can go Linux and learn LAMP, GCC, or whatever you like.


What do you want to CREATE?


I think that's a good place for you to start. What sort of things do you want to make?


Some ideas:

- Websites
- Applications for devices like mobile phones
- Applications for other devices like XBOX
- Applications for PC/Mac/Linux
- Hardware related stuff like robotics.


Think about what you might love to see yourself accomplish.

 

[bigjohnson]

if you are planning for the future Objective-C. that's what all iphone applications are programmed in. not everyone can do them etiher.

You can have your guys write the core "business logic" and a lot of the central bits in C/C++, you only need a small part to be really written in OC, and it allows potential code sharing/refactoring if you do it this way.

 

[Stud]

bigjohnson..i would probably like to get in to website and mobile phone apps, although programming for robotics would be badass. what is MSDN? how could one get started learning the proper tools necessary to create these types of media?

backbreaker. it sounds like you are doing very well for yourself running your web dev company. how were you able to make the transition from a programmer to running a successful venture? what sorts of new material did you have to learn? if my long term goal was to start a web development firm, what would the evolution look like from 100% newb to successful business owner?

 

[bigjohnson]

bigjohnson..i would probably like to get in to website and mobile phone apps, although programming for robotics would be badass. what is MSDN? how could one get started learning the proper tools necessary to create these types of media?

backbreaker. it sounds like you are doing very well for yourself running your web dev company. how were you able to make the transition from a programmer to running a successful venture? what sorts of new material did you have to learn?

I started in real time systems, including robotics and other process controls - it's a hoot, but the barriers to entry are sort of high and you really need to be motivated.

MSDN is the Microsoft Developers Network and you can find it at msdn.microsoft.com - the MSDN library is a really nice indexed document that will give you a lifetime of reading - hahahaha.

Google NerdDinner and try the walkthrough - maybe this will be a nice warmup for you.

 

[magentoecom]

I say just you have to require a basic knowledge of any language which you want to learn because any language you should try to learn then First it will start with coding,So coding is important. According to me you will require a basic knowledge of c,c++,html,.net etc.