When it comes to the battle of SMV, who really wins in the end, men or women?

[zekko]

As much as many don't want to admit it, attraction is a two-tier system. There are people you just want to F and people you'd like to marry and/or have an LTR with. This is true for men AND women. Yes, it is quite possible and certainly important to have a F-able LTR partner. But it is a slight compromise

Meh, that's what the PUA community always says, but I've never bought into it. I've always thought a man should aspire to be both. A woman who finds the F-able LTR partner has hit the jackpot.

I think the confusion is "SEXUAL marketplace" vs "LTR marketplace."

Are you guys really arguing that males and females peak at the same age? Because I don't buy that at all.

Thats the thing. Hes 28. If women have it their way, they want young, sexy, and successful.

My point was that you don't find "successful" that often at a young age, no matter what their preference. I would argue that "sexy" often comes later as well, as a guy gets more smooth and confident and doesn't come off so much like a horndog.

That said, if you were to tell me that a man hits a peak of some sort at age 28, I would have no problem with that. But 28 is a lot closer to 30 than to 20.

But if we reverse this thought process, to what point in your mind does game matter? Status? Dominance? Confidence?

I think that a guy gains so much in status, dominance, and confidence as he gets a little older - but he doesn't really lose that much (if anything) in terms of looks (as long as he stays in shape, and keeps his hair). He might even look better (less boyish, more manly).

The key point here is you are assuming old men act "old" and are not fun, do not bring tension, etc,,,. Why would you make that assumption?

I would argue that having more resources available allow an older man to bring more fun, not less. And can introduce a young girl to new experiences. And I don't even think we're talking about "old men" here since we're talking about guys in their 30s.

The way I see it, yeah maybe a girl is banging all these other guys/boys her own age. But then she sees the older, more worldy man, and that's when she is smitten.

20-something guys usually have better and more powerful, stronger erections, more powerful cumshots?

Older men are known for being able to control their ejaculations better. In other words, lasting longer, which enhances pleasure for the female.

I've seen plenty of super hot girls, in their early 20s dating guys in their 30s

At the end of the day, a high value guy in his 30s can date anybody. Like Mike said, he has a wide age range that he can choose from. I don't see this "ooh, he's too old" reaction from young girls toward a real man of value. She might say that about some loser old schmuck. A real man of value gets her tingling.

I differ from most guys here in that I don't worship the 18-24 year old girls like most here. I think there are plenty of sexy, exciting girls in their late 20s and early 30s. After that they thin out a bit. Yes, youth and fertility and all that. But who wants a ditzy club girl?

 

[Ambitious Player]

I personally want to know this though, how does the SMV part play out for males of a minority background?

For example I know a lot of Asians and Brown guys who are very successful here in the USA, have a career going, and are doing well for themselves. Now a lot of them do not look like they hit the gym at all or care that much about style but these are typically FOBs.

What if we are talking men born and raised here who do hit the gym, care about style, and have a career going? The few I have known did amazing with women of other minority backgrounds (Latina, Black, and even Persian) but didn't have as much success with your typical White American girl.

 

[Jaylan]

^With regard to race, it just depends on the woman. Some men date outside their race, and others dont. Id say a guy from Asia would really have to make sure hes intergrated into Western culture in order to attract White women. Being any sort of FOB hurts you bad.

Jaylan,

What you are articulating in the bolded elements above are "game". Tension and fun are the direct result of proper game. Your assumption above is that older men are somehow missing this. Can you help me understand why you are making that assumption or if you mean something else than game?

Im not saying older men are missing these things. Im saying a young guys being youthful and good looking alter a womans perception of his game and what he can do for her on an emotional and physical level. Young women are just as shallow as young men, no matter how much guys like to think they arent with regards to looks and stuff.

 

[JoeMarron]

JoeMarron:

I understand where you are coming from but IMO making the best of your sexual peak for men means quantity over quality. Right now I am a bit let down that guys with oversized shorts and terrible style get the hottest girls because they happen to be a part of a fraternity while the guys that aren't have to suffer.

Now I have thought about that whole going back to college thing but here in America it would be so awkward. Take a 30 yr old who is assumed to have good looks and some money to throw around, once everyone figures out he is 30 he will be off the list of most girls (hence the age thing).

As much as we want to deny it, and I maybe young so that has something to do with it, I don't see how at 30 I can enjoy the same sex life full of lots of girls and tons of hot sex that a 19 year old frat boy with good looks can...

Do you really believe that a Henry Cavill lookalike with a 6 figure income can't get laid as much as a frat boy? He doesn't need to be in college to do this. He can go on vacation and slay pvssy left and right. He can walk into pretty much any bar/club in america and walk out with a hot chick on his arm. He can use online dating and have chicks messaging him left and right. You keep glamorizing college as the only place to have a vibrant sex life when there are plenty of other opportunities out there for a good looking, wealthy older guy with game. The frat boy is stuck with chicks in his college environment. The successful older guy has a world of women to work with.

I personally want to know this though, how does the SMV part play out for males of a minority background?

For example I know a lot of Asians and Brown guys who are very successful here in the USA, have a career going, and are doing well for themselves. Now a lot of them do not look like they hit the gym at all or care that much about style but these are typically FOBs.

What if we are talking men born and raised here who do hit the gym, care about style, and have a career going? The few I have known did amazing with women of other minority backgrounds (Latina, Black, and even Persian) but didn't have as much success with your typical White American girl.

Dammit...this topic again. I think minorities are simply going to have to accept the fact that they aren't going to have as much success with a typical White American girl as a white dude. It makes perfect sense for white dudes to have an advantage, a typical white american chick is going to spend the vast majority of her life around white people so of course she's going to have a preference for white men. Part of being good at sleeping with tons of women is knowing where to hunt. If a brown dude is in an area with a high white population and none of the white chicks are interested then he needs to change his strategy. Either become so awesome that the white chicks won't care that he's a brown dude, stop banging his head against the wall and move to an area where white chicks are interested, or simply stop chasing after white chicks and pick the girls that are interested.

 

[Ambitious Player]

Why do people automatically assume that Asian or Brown means FOB? Like really why?

Why can't people assume I am talking about a guy born and raised here who acts every bit as White or Black as any other guy?

What I am talking about is if there is even a point in that guy pursuing white girls at all if he is good looking, well off financially, and has spent all that time making himself into an attractive option. As I have found, for some reason White European girls don't give that much of a damn about race while White American girls make it the focus of their selection process.

How can a guy from a minority background make himself a part of their selection process is what I was talking about and does it get easier as women hit their mid 20s and break apart from their college circles?

 

[Jaylan]

Actually, I disagree on the first guy killing it with women 18 to 24. A lot of women will recognize a guy is a good looking dude, but be turned off if hes too much older. A lot of chicks do see guys his age as "old" and close to their dads age if the girl is young enough.

With regards to you and your friends, exceptions dont make rules. I say the same thing when I hear cougars going on about how much men love them. Yes some men enjoy older women and even have a preference for them. But most young people are pretty shallow, and looks are the main driving factor in sexual attractive for them (yes both men and women). Would they have sex with and date older partners? Possibly. Is that their first choice or preference? For most young people, no.

Once men and women get more relationship minded, looks start to take a more backseat position to personality and accomplishments in life. But for many young women, my experiences has shown me that they care as much about looks as young men. And its a known fact that humans attribute good character traits with regard to people they find good looking. Which is why good looking men and women put in less work to get mates (even if they are asshats.)

 

[zekko]

You keep glamorizing college as the only place to have a vibrant sex life when there are plenty of other opportunities out there for a good looking, wealthy older guy with game. The frat boy is stuck with chicks in his college environment. The successful older guy has a world of women to work with.

Yeah, it seems like some of the guys here think college is the only place in the world to get women. Not everybody is in college.

Look at it this way: The girl who is at her peak (18-24) can bang practically any man from any age group, if she so chooses. You can't really say that a 22 year old douchebag. The older, high value man is a closer correlation to the peak SMV girl. because he can bang a wide age group of women. True, the cougar phenomenon has made the older woman/younger man more acceptable, but it's still the exception instead of the rule.

I think some of the younger posters here should wait until they experience their 30s, and then make up their mind about which is higher value. Because so far they've only seen one side of the story.

Actually, I disagree on the first guy killing it with women 18 to 24.

Actually, I don't care for Danger's example either. I think he should have posted something more like this for a guy in his 30s:

http://www.listal.com/viewimage/518948

 

[Jaylan]

Yeah, it seems like some of the guys here think college is the only place in the world to get women. Not everybody is in college.

Look at it this way: The girl who is at her peak (18-24) can bang practically any man from any age group, if she so chooses. You can't really say that a 22 year old douchebag. The older, high value man is a closer correlation to the peak SMV girl. because he can bang a wide age group of women. True, the cougar phenomenon has made the older woman/younger man more acceptable, but it's still the exception instead of the rule.

I think some of the younger posters here should wait until they experience their 30s, and then make up their mind about which is higher value. Because so far they've only seen one side of the story.

I disagree. A 25 yr old guy in great shape and with his act together can easily bed women between 18 and 45. I know several guys whove slept with sexy older women. Heck one dude I know banged a 45 yr old milf when he was 19. And trust me, she was sexy. And this woman was married to a man with status, but she wanted to bang the young guy doing handy stuff around her house.

But that aside...who is screwing most hot 20s tail? 20s men are. Do you think guys in their 20s are worried if some older women are not open to him? Nope. He knows hes got plenty of hot chicks in his age group to choose from. Also, actually any attractive woman 18 to 45 can screw men from any age group of her choice. Because we know most men are happy to screw a sexy woman despite her age.

But back to your main point. If a "22 yr old douchebag" is constantly slaying prime females, do you think he cares about not smashing women in their 30s or 40s? Honestly, if I was that age, Id consider all the sexy women in my age group to far outweigh any perceived larger dating range that older men have. And thats only if we want to continue assuming that younger men arent smashing older chicks who value their youth too.

Its weird to me how some guys like to explain away shallow female behavior. When young chicks are shown to care a lot about looks, guys say its about convenience of the younger guy...and that the younger woman would easily go for a good looking older dude with status. But lets not forget that many younger women are simply more attracted to the look of young guys. Also, why is it when older men go for younger women...its explained as being about looks. But when cougars do the same thing with younger men, I see guys trying to explain it as her settling for young guys because guys her age dont want her? Thats hardly what Ive seen. Hot older women definitely have a pool of men their age to choose from. Though Ive known older women who simply enjoy younger men because they are more attracted to them.

Summarized point being? Lets stop trying to explain about female shallowness and attraction. I feel they behave a lot more similar to guys than people would like to believe.

PS - Mike has lived his 30s, and you guys are discounting his opinion. So I dont think my age would change what some of you think regarding this matter. Like I said, I simply think its disingenuous to downplay the value young women feel young men have, especially if young men are fvking them the most.

 

[Ambitious Player]

I am in my early 20s and so far I haven't done that poorly for myself but I suffer from the "we want what we can't have" syndrome (I made the name up btw).

Like I have been with above average looking and even hot girls who were from minority backgrounds. Sometimes I just click with them right off the bat and it is no issue at all. The problem is I want to improve my results with White girls even more than where they are at now. I am doing better with some girls like the cute girl who is more bookwormish or the kind of hipster girl that loves Starbucks but I am not seeing any results with the sorority types, the model looking types, and the margot robbie types.

Guess as a result my game and the way I am making myself overall is still in the works. Being that I live in an area of the US where interracial couples would get a lot of **** doesn't help either. I am more interested in knowing if men from minority backgrounds who have money and looks can get with a variety of girls when they hit their peak in their 30s including the ones I can't get with right now.

 

[zekko]

PS - Mike has lived his 30s, and you guys are discounting his opinion. So I dont think my age would change what some of you think regarding this matter.

No offense or disrespect intended toward Mike, but IIRC he is balding. That may have colored his experiences, and contributed to his preoccupation with looks.

Jaylan, you're what, 27? Do you feel you have grown in the game and are doing better now than five years ago? If so, then why wouldn't that continue for another five years or so? If not, well then maybe you're one of those guys who peaked early. They do exist.

 

[Jaylan]

No offense or disrespect intended toward Mike, but IIRC he is balding. That may have colored his experiences, and contributed to his preoccupation with looks.

Jaylan, you're what, 27? Do you feel you have grown in the game and are doing better now than five years ago? If so, then why wouldn't that continue for another five years or so? If not, well then maybe you're one of those guys who peaked early. They do exist.

I feel Im in my physical peak now. Thats just natural biology. My testosterone is at its peak (and my muscle mass should plateau until I hit my 30s), and given my nutrition and ethnic background, I still look like Im in my early 20s. People dont tend to believe me when I tell them Im in my late 20s. Status peak though? Not now of course not...no one is in their 20s.

All that said, I dont pretend Ill still be the first choice to attractive young women once Im almost 40. Ive been in college, and I hang with 20s folks now. I see who the girls pick. Some of them are open to older guys...but most want a guy near their age and are more attracted to young men.

I luckily have all my hair, but its not just about having hair. Ive heard women talk about being less attracted to men with gray hair, wrinkles, or who are less hard bodied. Ive heard "after a certain age, they remind me of my dad". Thats just reality. Young people are drawn to young people. And in general, youth is attractive in both men and women.

Anyways, while I do think attractive men and women of various ages can bed one another...Im realistic and recognize whats actually going on out in the dating world. Most young men and women are dating each other and value each other the most. It doesnt matter what WE each individually think here...or what some website in the manosphere thinks. What matters is real world occurrences, and most attractive young women are sleeping with attractive young men.

 

[Ambitious Player]

Seems like the more you delay in making it, the more of a price you pay.

Say you miss out on the high school experience, college is still there and as my other thread proves most guys aren't getting laid in college at all.

You miss out on college you have your 20s you play around with and learn from those mistakes.

But I have never really seen any 30 year olds who hit their prime and were with lots of different hot girls. As I have said, it comes down to many things:

1. Men get shunned at that age of dating lots of hot women.
2. Men are expected to settle down.
3. As Jaylan mentioned, hot young people are dating hot young people.
4. Most hot women are taken after their mid 20s it seems, rarely any hot ones left past 30.

It seems like the system is made to make late bloomers and successful men suffer while "douchebags" in college get the hottest girls in their prime.

 

[Jaylan]

Seems like the more you delay in making it, the more of a price you pay.

Say you miss out on the high school experience, college is still there and as my other thread proves most guys aren't getting laid in college at all.

You miss out on college you have your 20s you play around with and learn from those mistakes.

But I have never really seen any 30 year olds who hit their prime and were with lots of different hot girls. As I have said, it comes down to many things:

1. Men get shunned at that age of dating lots of hot women.
2. Men are expected to settle down.
3. As Jaylan mentioned, hot young people are dating hot young people.
4. Most hot women are taken after their mid 20s it seems, rarely any hot ones left past 30.

It seems like the system is made to make late bloomers and successful men suffer while "douchebags" in college get the hottest girls in their prime.

Douchebags arent the only ones getting laid in the teens, college, and 20s. A lot of regular guys get laid. I got laid in college, and I wasnt a frat boy or jock. Honestly, you just gotta put yourself out there.

I made it my mission to get to know a lot of different people. Im an outgoing friendly dude...so it wasnt hard to become "known" on a campus of 7000 students. But like I said, I went to a laid back state school in a liberal northeast city. So maybe Im off the mark

 

[JaegerPilot217]

I want to add in and say that the clan mentality present among American college kids overrides attraction. A hot girl at a big university would readily screw a muscular frat boy or some guy in her social circle over the Henry Cavill lookalike that works on Wall Street and makes 6 figures. I feel like the best way for men in their 30s to get hot girls in their early 20s is to live in a big city, there is no other alternative. Places like college towns are so cliquish and tight knit that even an investment banker with the looks of Henry Cavill and a 6 figure salary would not be able to pull a good looking sorority girl (and a lot of good looking girls do tend to be in sororities).

Now I voted women because their looks stay around throughout their 20s and their teens. Women can sleep around freely with who they wish and not get shunned by society for it when they are in their peak. Now men can do the same thing too but I feel like when they hit their peaks in their 30s a lot of things happen:

1. The attractive women go down in number

2. Hot younger women here in the US are so cliquish that if you aren't a part of their circle they aren't touching you

3. They have much more responsibilities (work, taxes, making payments, career, etc.)

The reason I voted women is because women get to enjoy their sexual peaks, men do not.

yup, women get to enjoy their sexual prime years without putting forth much effort, well this is only mainly for the women who hit the genetic lottery and are actually hot, physically attractive, or at least average looking, all they have to do is wake up in the morning, meanwhile men have to go out and earn it

 

[JaegerPilot217]

Douchebags arent the only ones getting laid in the teens, college, and 20s. A lot of regular guys get laid. I got laid in college, and I wasnt a frat boy or jock. Honestly, you just gotta put yourself out there.

I made it my mission to get to know a lot of different people. Im an outgoing friendly dude...so it wasnt hard to become "known" on a campus of 7000 students. But like I said, I went to a laid back state school in a liberal northeast city. So maybe Im off the mark

Not all of us were blessed or born with an extroverted personality, which makes very unlikely for those of us to develop big and popular social circles, and have a lot of social connections to go out a lot

 

[zekko]

Let me ask this again: Are you guys trying to say that males reach peak SMV at the same age that females do? Because no way do I buy that.

I feel Im in my physical peak now. Thats just natural biology. My testosterone is at its peak (and my muscle mass should plateau until I hit my 30s), and given my nutrition and ethnic background, I still look like Im in my early 20s. People dont tend to believe me when I tell them Im in my late 20s. Status peak though? Not now of course not...no one is in their 20s.

I think a male's physical peak is around age 28. So if we were to come up with an age group where a man's SMV is at its peak, say similar to female's 18-24, what do you think it would be? I would say maybe 28-34, maybe 27-33, somewhere in there. That's more the range I'm talking about, not 40s or above. Although again, if men stay in shape and have value, you'll find age does not diminish them much.

What are you trying to say, that you're successful now because you look like you're in your early 20s? Seems like a bit of a cop out. I've said all along that for a man to experience his peak he has to take good physical care of himself.

Most young men and women are dating each other and value each other the most.

Young people are usually together due to peer groups. If you throw any mix of male and females together at close quarters, they're going to start hooking up (within reason when it comes to age differences). For that reason alone, people of the same age are going to tend to hook up.

For example, in the 2005 season of The Surreal Life, where they threw celebrities together in a mansion to live (kind of like The Real World), 22 year old model Adrienne Curry hooked up with 47 year old Christopher Knight (of the Brady Bunch), and later were married (they divorced after six years). Throw males and females in close quarters and they're going to hook up.

 

[JaegerPilot217]

And it men are valued more than women are for having a college degree unfortunately

 

[JaegerPilot217]

I do kinda agree with the OP for saying women get to enjoy their peak more than men do without putting much effort

 

[JaegerPilot217]

And luckily for women, they don't need to have their **** together

 

[JoeMarron]

All that said, I dont pretend Ill still be the first choice to attractive young women once Im almost 40. Ive been in college, and I hang with 20s folks now. I see who the girls pick. Some of them are open to older guys...but most want a guy near their age and are more attracted to young men.

But I have never really seen any 30 year olds who hit their prime and were with lots of different hot girls. As I have said, it comes down to many things:

It seems that much of the argument against men peaking in their 30s is based on personal experience. Personal experience is great but what happens when someone else's experience contradicts your own? It can't just simply be written off as an exception. I have no personal experience on this topic. I'm not involved in the dating world or associate with a bunch of 20s women so I can't say with certainty who they date. I do however know what's attractive to women and that the ideal 30s man is an improvement in every way to the ideal 20s man.