When it comes to the battle of SMV, who really wins in the end, men or women?

[Jaylan]

^All I am saying is exceptions dont make the rules. And that men shouldnt sit around banking on a chart that doesnt accurately portray whos screwing who. Your experience does not discount the fact that most people date and screw within their age group. (especially young people)

Thats the problem I have with some dudes in the manosphere. I see many men telling dudes to bank on things turning around in their older years and how all the young puzzy they crave now will be available to them later on...and that the women their age will get their comeuppance. What those dudes should be telling men is to maximize the potential for for dating during their youth, and not really focus so much on men vs women crap.

 

[TheException]

^All I am saying is exceptions dont make the rules. And that men shouldnt sit around banking on a chart that doesnt accurately portray whos screwing who. Your experience does not discount the fact that most people date and screw within their age group. (especially young people)

You misunderstand the chart.

It is not meant to categorize "who is banging who". It simply shows when both male and females peak in attractiveness. Women peak in their early 20s when they are young and most beautiful....as they age they become less attractive thus dropping her SMV. Men though.....are not judged based upon looks the same as women. We are judged by a combination of our successes and worth. Men dont graduate college and just experience a ton of success right off the bat....that is why we peak in our late 30s.

I agree with you that the majority of people, especially people in their early 20s will date people their own age. Its not impossible to date younger though. I think you just misunderstood the purpose of the chart.

 

[Mike32ct]

When I was 21, I considered people over 30 to be ancient lol. It's the way kids think. It's not personal.

Maybe the term "peak attractiveness" is problematic. What EXACTLY does it mean?

1. Maximum puzzy pulling power with hot young women?

2. Most options with women irrespective of her age/looks?

3. Most social status?

4. Most money?

The problem is that the manosphere is comparing apples to oranges. With women, her peak attractiveness is based on youth and looks. With men, we add in a bunch of other stuff such that a corner office and nice car is being looked at as equivalent to firm boobs, nice skin, and a tight vag. It's NOT the same. It has value, yes, but it's not the same.

If we are going to compare peak attractiveness of men and women, we need to go by looks ONLY to avoid the apples and oranges comparison.

 

[Jaylan]

You misunderstand the chart.

It is not meant to categorize "who is banging who". It simply shows when both male and females peak in attractiveness. Women peak in their early 20s when they are young and most beautiful....as they age they become less attractive thus dropping her SMV. Men though.....are not judged based upon looks the same as women. We are judged by a combination of our successes and worth. Men dont graduate college and just experience a ton of success right off the bat....that is why we peak in our late 30s.

I agree with you that the majority of people, especially people in their early 20s will date people their own age. Its not impossible to date younger though. I think you just misunderstood the purpose of the chart.

How is a man at his sexual peak at an age where peak women are mainly screwing someone their own age? Thats my point. The chart is misleading and incorrect in my view. I agree with Mike, that the wording needs to be revised.

 

[TheException]

How is a man at his sexual peak at an age where peak women are mainly screwing someone their own age? Thats my point. The chart is misleading and incorrect in my view. I agree with Mike, that the wording needs to be revised.

Not "sexual peak"....."sexual market value".

As in when females would find a man most attractive. Think about it....it takes years for a man to grow and become successful. Men are not like women, who get all their value just from waking up each morning. We have to go out and earn it. Sexual market value doesnt necessarily mean you are banging the hottest girls at this age.....just means men tend to be more attractive when they are 35 than they were at 21 and a recent college grad who is a newbie to the "real world".

 

[zekko]

^Come on zekko. We all age. Some better than others, but we all get older. Johnny Depp looks like Johnny Depp. And women of varying ages find him attractive. But Im 27 too, and Ive heard women talk about how hot he was in Cry Baby or 21 Jump Street. Its not that he isnt attractive now...but he does look clearly different

Depp was probably at the peak of his sex symbol status when he was in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, and he was 40 when he made the first one.

I agree that we all age, but bear in mind I'm not talking about myself here. I realize I'm over the hill. But I'm saying that if a guy has his sh!t together and stays in shape, he's going to have a lot of value in his 30s as a mature man. It's true that if you are an average schmuck who doesn't work to improve himself and lets himself go to seed physically, then you're going to find that your best days are behind you.

How is a man at his sexual peak at an age where peak women are mainly screwing someone their own age?

Mainly it's convenience. People of a young age tend to hang around together in large groups of singles so the opportunities will occur more often. Also, a lot of older men have limiting beliefs so they don't realize that they have the option of dating younger women. And a lot of men will worry about being shamed by society for doing so.

We're talking about SMV here. Do you really think that a 22 year old douchebag represents the most valuable male?

If we are going to compare peak attractiveness of men and women, we need to go by looks ONLY to avoid the apples and oranges comparison

The problem with this is that more than looks contribute to a male's SMV. A man comes into his full value later in life than a woman, surely we must agree on that at least? A lot of men build up more muscle later also.

As in when females would find a man most attractive. Think about it....it takes years for a man to grow and become successful. Men are not like women, who get all their value just from waking up each morning. We have to go out and earn it.

This is true. Building up your SMV takes time. That's why men peak later and women peak earlier.

 

[JoeMarron]

We're talking about SMV here. Do you really think that a 22 year old douchebag represents the most valuable male?

This. I don't understand how anyone could argue that a 30 year old man has less value that a kid essentially. Most men at the age where females peak aren't even financially independent. They're either still living with their parents or at college with the help of their parents. Even if they are independent, they still lack the life experience and wisdom of an older man. Hell, our brains don't even fully mature until mid 20's. In what universe is a fit 30 year old dude with a well paying job, a house, and more life experience less attractive to women than a kid?

 

[Mike32ct]

I would never say that the 22 yo backwards hat wearing guy is the model of value to women and society. No doubt that the 30yo established man has far more to offer.

BUT, if we go by raw sexual attraction, the 22 yo douchbag may well have the edge.

The 30 yo guy, however, might have a wider age range of women to date and F. He can go older and younger. But does he get more and hotter lays than the 22 yo guy? Perhaps not.

 

[zekko]

The 30 yo guy, however, might have a wider age range of women to date and F. He can go older and younger. But does he get more and hotter lays than the 22 yo guy? Perhaps not.

The younger guy may get more and hotter lays due in part to availability, convenience, and time on hand to troll parties and clubs. Or not, depends on the dude. But here's the difference:

Is the girl going to want to stay with that douchebag? Or is it just a one night dalliance for her? I realize this doesn't carry much value on SoSuave, but when she comes across the man of higher value, she's going to want to fvck him and want him to stick around. That was the biggest difference in my earlier and later years. Once I had built my value they wanted to stick around - AND they wanted to fvck. I realize the "sticking around" part represents a horror story to many here, but I don't see how you can be higher value and not be desired for more.

Getting back to the time it takes to build value, look at Christian Grey, the ultimate female fantasy figure. He was 28 (while the "heroine" was 22), but he was a frigging billionaire pervert. The billionaire bit is undoubtedly part of the attraction, but in the real world, how many guys are going to have their fortune built by 28? In reality, it will probably take a little longer. So that probably pushes a real Christian Grey type into his 30s, which is old enough to be smooth and mature, but young enough still to be physically appealing (assuming a guy takes care of himself physically). And Christian Grey had a trainer, of course.

If so, then I can agree with you based only on the following assumptions.

•The 30+ year old did not keep himself in shape AND

This is a big key. If a man can take care of himself, he doesn't lose his looks like a woman tends to (and may very well gain). So he can retain the physical appeal while adding things like confidence, maturity, status, etc.

 

[Mike32ct]

I bolded what I think this is the key phrase here.

What is your definition of raw sexual attraction? Pure physical appearance?

If so, then I can agree with you based only on the following assumptions.

• The 30+ year old did not keep himself in shape AND
• We recognize that physical attraction is a much smaller component of male attractiveness and are careful not to place male factors of attraction onto the female valuation mindset.

Yes, I mean pure physical appearance.

No doubt that men have to take care of themselves. And more importantly, don't lose your hair lol. Unless you can properly rock a shaved head.

Don't get me wrong, I think a 30 yo could possibly "win" in a pickup competition against a 22 yo. But I would argue it's more due to experience. A lot of young (say 22) guys have the looks, but they are too naive to pick up DTF signs or lack confidence. The younger guy would have more viable targets, but the older more experienced guy would be less like to F up.

But that aside, it is still very difficult for me to believe that women put MUCH less emphasis on looks.

 

[JaegerPilot217]

Yes, I mean pure physical appearance.

No doubt that men have to take care of themselves. And more importantly, don't lose your hair lol. Unless you can properly rock a shaved head.

Don't get me wrong, I think a 30 yo could possibly "win" in a pickup competition against a 22 yo. But I would argue it's more due to experience. A lot of young (say 22) guys have the looks, but they are too naive to pick up DTF signs or lack confidence. The younger guy would have more viable targets, but the older more experienced guy would be less like to F up.

But that aside, it is still very difficult for me to believe that women put MUCH less emphasis on looks.

and if women love sex as much as men do, as many people claim, then why do peak attractiveness, 20-something women prefer sex with men in their late 30's, 40's and 50's when 20-something guys usually have better and more powerful, stronger erections, more powerful cumshots?

 

[Jaylan]

We're talking about SMV here. Do you really think that a 22 year old douchebag represents the most valuable male?

In the eyes of peak sexually attractive women, YES the man in his 20s is more valuable. It really seems like men here (esp older guys) are trying to create their own reality here and also misread why young men do well with young women.

Its not because of circumstance or convenience...its because young women mostly find young men the most attractive. No matter how much some guys wanna say men and women are evaluated differently, thats not entirely true. Women (and men) value the opposite sex different depending on their age.

Young people care more about looks, tension, and fun. Older daters will take maturity, experience, status, etc into account. No matter what guys here wanna say, most young women care about looks, tension, and fun. And they obviously feel they get more of that with men their own age.

Individual MEN here may think they are more valuable at an older age than the young 20 somethings most peak women are dating...but they arent. All the things people have been saying about why an older man has more value, does not matter to most young sexually peaking women. They just want a sexy, fun guy that brings tension. And most clearly feel they get that more with men their own age. Lets stop projecting here, and recognize that based on who the peak women are choosing, men their own age are clearly their top pick. Hence in their eyes, young men have the most value.

and if women love sex as much as men do, as many people claim, then why do peak attractiveness, 20-something women prefer sex with men in their late 30's, 40's and 50's when 20-something guys usually have better and more powerful, stronger erections, more powerful cumshots?

????
Some young women prefer men outside their age bracket. But they are the minority. Lets be realistic here. When did people here start making up this false idea that most arent screwing men their age? We know why some 20s women date outside their age bracket. Some do for the reasons Danger mentioned before, but many are simply users looking for a step up.

Yes, I mean pure physical appearance.

No doubt that men have to take care of themselves. And more importantly, don't lose your hair lol. Unless you can properly rock a shaved head.

Don't get me wrong, I think a 30 yo could possibly "win" in a pickup competition against a 22 yo. But I would argue it's more due to experience. A lot of young (say 22) guys have the looks, but they are too naive to pick up DTF signs or lack confidence. The younger guy would have more viable targets, but the older more experienced guy would be less like to F up.

But that aside, it is still very difficult for me to believe that women put MUCH less emphasis on looks.

This.

College taught me a lot. And staying fit in the gym now has shown me a lot now as well during my post college years. This idea that women place so much less emphasis on looks than men is not true. Study how young women speak and behave, and it says they want a nice looking young dude who can create fun and tension. Thats who I seen picked the vast majority of the time.

Also, while experience and confidence increases with age....I see plenty of young men in their 20s with confidence and experience with women. Seems a lot of men on this website dont like giving men in their 20s any credit. Considering they do the most fvking of peak attractive women, they deserve some credit.

Getting back to the time it takes to build value, look at Christian Grey, the ultimate female fantasy figure. He was 28 (while the "heroine" was 22), but he was a frigging billionaire pervert. The billionaire bit is undoubtedly part of the attraction, but in the real world, how many guys are going to have their fortune built by 28? In reality, it will probably take a little longer. So that probably pushes a real Christian Grey type into his 30s, which is old enough to be smooth and mature, but young enough still to be physically appealing (assuming a guy takes care of himself physically). And Christian Grey had a trainer, of course.

Thats the thing. Hes 28. If women have it their way, they want young, sexy, and successful. So why do guys keep trying to rewrite young womens desires and valuation of men by putting older men on top of younger men when reality doesnt reflect this?

Come on now. Why dont people just give younger guys credit and accept younger womens choices on the possibility that they might just be more attracted to younger men and value them more. Why is young women fvking young men being explained away as convenience, circumstance, and free time? Thats very disingenuous in my book.

I hinge my viewpoint on this; young women can basically screw men from any age group they want. The fact that the vast majority of young women screw men in their own age bracket shows us exactly who women value mostly in the "sexual market place".

 

[Mike32ct]

I agree with Jaylan 100 percent.

But, there may a peer pressure factor too. Even if an 18 to 23 female has the hots for a much older guy, her gfs might give her the "Eww, he's old" attitude when he approaches, unless he's exceptional. The older guy might be better off meeting somewhere other than a nightlife venue when she's surrounded by her gfs.

Zekko, Danger, etc., please don't misunderstand me. I'm as pro older guy as it gets. I'm not in anyway trying to put older guys down (or younger either for that matter). But I do think many women prefer guys their age. Maybe it's function of where I live. I'm in the suburbs. In a big city like NYC, I would imagine plenty of well off older men date younger women. I just don't see much of it where I am.

 

[Jaylan]

Let me add,

Im not saying older men dont have large value, and Im not saying that they cannot get peaking women...they surely can and do. Im merely saying that based on who peak women mostly select, women clearly see higher value differently than what many guys would like to think. Lets not discredit most womens choices, or a younger mans sexual value, in an attempt to uplift the older gentlemen. The older gentlemen has enough value in his own right without needing the value of younger men to be misinterpreted.

That all said, for as much as people would like to say men and women choose partners differently and value things differently, men and women seem very similar in their 20s based on how I see them select mates.

 

[Mike32ct]

Jaylan, I'm not saying all young guys lack confidence or experience. Many young guys are very confident and have exceptional game. But some can't fully take advantage of their looks yet because they need to F up and miss a few opportunities first. Once they do that, they can score like a mofo lol.

That's just a "footnote." Overall, I'm with you.

Zekko, I totally respect where you're coming from. Of course one should be the guy women want to "keep" long term.

I think the confusion is "SEXUAL marketplace" vs "LTR marketplace."

As much as many don't want to admit it, attraction is a two-tier system. There are people you just want to F and people you'd like to marry and/or have an LTR with. This is true for men AND women. Yes, it is quite possible and certainly important to have a F-able LTR partner. But it is a slight compromise.

 

[Ambitious Player]

I want to add in and say that the clan mentality present among American college kids overrides attraction. A hot girl at a big university would readily screw a muscular frat boy or some guy in her social circle over the Henry Cavill lookalike that works on Wall Street and makes 6 figures. I feel like the best way for men in their 30s to get hot girls in their early 20s is to live in a big city, there is no other alternative. Places like college towns are so cliquish and tight knit that even an investment banker with the looks of Henry Cavill and a 6 figure salary would not be able to pull a good looking sorority girl (and a lot of good looking girls do tend to be in sororities).

Now I voted women because their looks stay around throughout their 20s and their teens. Women can sleep around freely with who they wish and not get shunned by society for it when they are in their peak. Now men can do the same thing too but I feel like when they hit their peaks in their 30s a lot of things happen:

1. The attractive women go down in number

2. Hot younger women here in the US are so cliquish that if you aren't a part of their circle they aren't touching you

3. They have much more responsibilities (work, taxes, making payments, career, etc.)

The reason I voted women is because women get to enjoy their sexual peaks, men do not.

 

[Jaylan]

^I guess Im glad I went to a small state school in a liberal section of the country, in an even more liberal city. Because my school wasnt all too cliquish, and the dudes who were apart of greek life were down to earth. The jocks were cool too. I was actually surprised at how different my college was from what I saw on tv growing up.

Jaylan, I'm not saying all young guys lack confidence or experience. Many young guys are very confident and have exceptional game. But some can't fully take advantage of their looks yet because they need to F up and miss a few opportunities first. Once they do that, they can score like a mofo lol.

That's just a "footnote." Overall, I'm with you.

Zekko, I totally respect where you're coming from. Of course one should be the guy women want to "keep" long term.

I think the confusion is "SEXUAL marketplace" vs "LTR marketplace."

As much as many don't want to admit it, attraction is a two-tier system. There are people you just want to F and people you'd like to marry and/or have an LTR with. This is true for men AND women. Yes, it is quite possible and certainly important to have a F-able LTR partner. But it is a slight compromise.

True on the compromise point. Which is why I really wonder if I will ever settle down. No one is perfect, and if a dude isnt compromising what he really wants in a ladies appearance, hes compromising on something regarding her personality. Then again, maybe I just havent found the right lady yet...as cliche as that sounds.

 

[JoeMarron]

Alright let me put it this way, on paper a 30 year old male at his best has a higher market value than a 20 year old at his best. However, in reality we rarely see this play out because so many men stagnate in their 20s. This is why you see so many females dating within their own age range, the supply of young attractive men is simply higher than the supply of attractive 30 year olds.

I want to add in and say that the clan mentality present among American college kids overrides attraction. A hot girl at a big university would readily screw a muscular frat boy or some guy in her social circle over the Henry Cavill lookalike that works on Wall Street and makes 6 figures. I feel like the best way for men in their 30s to get hot girls in their early 20s is to live in a big city, there is no other alternative. Places like college towns are so cliquish and tight knit that even an investment banker with the looks of Henry Cavill and a 6 figure salary would not be able to pull a good looking sorority girl (and a lot of good looking girls do tend to be in sororities).

Now I voted women because their looks stay around throughout their 20s and their teens. Women can sleep around freely with who they wish and not get shunned by society for it when they are in their peak. Now men can do the same thing too but I feel like when they hit their peaks in their 30s a lot of things happen:

1. The attractive women go down in number

2. Hot younger women here in the US are so cliquish that if you aren't a part of their circle they aren't touching you

3. They have much more responsibilities (work, taxes, making payments, career, etc.)

The reason I voted women is because women get to enjoy their sexual peaks, men do not.

It seems like all of your reasoning is focused on college years. We all know college is just a sex free for all, we can't draw conclusions based on something that doesn't happen in the real world. Take the muscular frat boy and the Superman lookalike, throw them in a random bar full of hot women and Superman would win every time. Hell if Superman really wanted to he could use all that money to go back to college and screw all the hot chicks he wants.

You make a good point however on the fact that the man is usually busy with real life issues at his peak while the woman is carefree. Women do get to enjoy their sexual peaks but do they make the most of it? Sleeping around certainly isn't making the most of their value. Virtually all women want to settle down and have a family eventually, if she wasted her peak years on the c0ck carousel then her options get lower and lower. A man on the other hand has all the time in the world to make the best of his sexual value. You're looking at women at their peak from a man's perspective and saying that they have it better off. Take a man and a woman in their 40s, both single. The man would look back on those years with pride plus he still has time to find a good mate since a man's value depreciates slowly. The woman would look back on those years with regret because she didn't make the best of her value.

 

[Ambitious Player]

JoeMarron:

I understand where you are coming from but IMO making the best of your sexual peak for men means quantity over quality. Right now I am a bit let down that guys with oversized shorts and terrible style get the hottest girls because they happen to be a part of a fraternity while the guys that aren't have to suffer.

Now I have thought about that whole going back to college thing but here in America it would be so awkward. Take a 30 yr old who is assumed to have good looks and some money to throw around, once everyone figures out he is 30 he will be off the list of most girls (hence the age thing).

As much as we want to deny it, and I maybe young so that has something to do with it, I don't see how at 30 I can enjoy the same sex life full of lots of girls and tons of hot sex that a 19 year old frat boy with good looks can...

 

[JdelaSilviera]

I've seen plenty of super hot girls, in their early 20s dating guys in their 30s, from what I've seen I can't even tell it's the norm these girls that usually have very particular tastes to date around their age (although I don't consider 10 years a greaaat difference to be) Many times these girls find themselves too good for guys their own age. Of course, most people date around their age, but I wouldn't be so quick to say it is because of preference. It's about social circle, let's say an 20 yo attention wh0re has 4 "candidates" with whom she constantly hangs around, 2 20s and 2 30s, my intuition would say that the 30s are more dangerous. But the reality another, because 20yo hang around with college friends for the most part. About being in shape, most guys in their 20s are not in shape... most young (all in fact) people don't proper care with themselves.

Now, women will always have more sex for the simple fact men have no standards. And I would say, if a men doesn't take proper care of himself and his career he can become hideous to women. If a tanned hot guy in his 40s approaches a 25 yo, he has good chances to score. But if a guy by his 40s has becomes fat, premature grey hair, hairloss and wrinkles he could be seen almost as a "monster" in the club environment.