When "embracing the hate" has no effect?

[The LadyKiller]

A couple of months ago, I made a thread (http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=192899&highlight=embrace+hate) about trying to get in better with girls who I work with. Background/setting:
-I work at a very large company with many of the employees in their early-mid 20s like myself. We all relocated for this job, so my "out of work friends" are a couple of hours away; everyone we know around here is from work (long/strange hours, common interests, etc.)
I am an outgoing personality, very gregarious and talkative and generally positive. I treat people nicely and with respect; not worth it to show spite or anger.

The main gist in the previous thread was that I was having trouble getting the girls I work with to open up to me. Being a naturally outgoing guy, approaching and talking to them is no problem. However, I was receiving nothing but work-related smalltalk from these girls, no matter what I did. Any attempt at expanding the conversation ever-so-slightly was rebuffed. Mike32CT and Zerro gave solid insight into the situation . I wouldn't go walking around starting convos if I wasn't getting much reciprocation. I figured if I gave them space, maybe they would open up more...

...yeah that didn't work. Things stayed the same. The girls will smalltalk, but that's it. If I disappeared, I don't think any of the girls would blink. I'm not exaggerating:
-People go to get food from our work cafe all the time. If I'm going, girls will either "get something later" or "I'm not hungry anymore."
-When people go out as a group, a co-ed mix seems to be the most fun. Doesn't work if I can't get a "yes" from any girls I invite to come with the group.
-The example where my ego may interfere...like normal people, friending on facebook and following on twitter is commonplace. A handful of girls won't "friend" me and certainly won't follow me even though they'll accept/follow everyone else.

In normal circumstances, it wouldn't be a big deal and I can just hang out with my out-of-work friends. Unfortunately, they live too far away. Referring to the two smaller points at the top of the thread, my out-of-work friends live hours away and everyone we know is from our work (crazy hours, etc.). This means that this trend with girls needs to change since I don't have much social proof. I'm sure there are parties being thrown, but without the social proof, I don't hear about nor get invited to them.

Is there anything I can try or do to shake things up? These girls seem to get along with most other guys just fine, but there's some invisible barrier they put up when dealing with me. I have to initiate every conversation/smalltalk or else nothing happens. I can't believe it would be difficult to get in good graces with these girls at work - or in general.

 

[The LadyKiller]

Any thoughts? In a perfect world, I would be myself at work - regardless of what girls did, "embrace the hate" - and then see my out-of-work friends when I'm off. Unfortunately, my friends are AT work so I'm going to have to start trying to warm relations with the ladies. Any suggestions?

 

[Mike32ct]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I can only think of one thing. It's a bit of a long shot with no guarantees, but it might work.

As I mentioned before, focus on your friendships with the guys in the office while still being polite with the females.

Find a good guy friend who is hopefully in this popular group. The better looking and connected he is, the better.

(Don't complain anymore to even the trusted guys about not getting invited by the girls.)

Invite this guy to do something social like happy hour at a really cool bar. Pick a day when people are happy and craving a drink. Maybe your team just finished a long stressful project. That is KEY. People love to drink then.

Assuming he accepts, tell him he can invite anyone he wants. Drop the names of another cool guy and some girls he gets along well with just as suggestions. But have "the more the merrier attitude.". Let him do the invites not you since he has more pull. He invites who he wants. Of course he's gonna invite girls.

If this all works out, you then bypassed her "clique filter" and ended up at a social gathering that the girls wouldn't otherwise invite you to.

Then be the cool fun social guy at happy hour. Now the girls have a chance to "test drive" you as a new clique member. If all goes well, you may be included in future invites.

But the keys are these:

1. Cool popular connected (and hopefully handsome) guy friend.

2. He does the invites. If you try to get girls to go by yourself, it won't work.

3. The omg I'm soo sick of that xyz project. We're so gonna celebrate with drinks when it's finished. I'm so happy it's done.

 

[Mike32ct]

Make it look like this is just for fun, not like you are using him to get near thr girls (even though you are lol.)

If someone your guy friend doesn't like asks you about the get together, play dumb.

Most of all, make it seem like it's HIS party not yours.

 

[corrector]

Probably one of those "looks" things. If the OP had the "looks preference" that these girls liked then these problems wouldn't exist. It really shouldn't be this difficult in the first place.

Again, if you have to jump through all sorts of crazy hoops like "clique filters", and it's like pulling teeth to get a decent interaction without inventing crazy props just to get you foot in the door, then you have to ask yourself is this whole thing really worth it? It's just crazy.

 

[floydb25]

Sounds like a lack of interest. They're just not that into you, as the saying goes. Nothing is going to MAKE someone interested in you - only make them more or less interested based on what you do AFTER the initial attraction. If they're not attracted to you - there's nothing you can do. They would at least show some interest when you back away, but they don't. They're not even trying to use you under the guise of friendship, or a co-worker buddy.

And yes, this is about looks. There's nothing from what you state that is wrong. If they were attracted to you - their face would glow, they'd be happy and smiling, touching you, making sexual inneundos, wanting to see you outside of work, and reciprocating your interest. There's none of that, and you're putting in a solid effort.

Contrary to.popular belief - women DO show interest when they like someone. You just have to initiate, and get the ball rolling. It will be effortless from there. Your ball is at the other end of the court, about to be kicked into the bleachers.

Sounds like you're just wasting time. At best, you'll get excuses and blow offs. Don't waste time and energy on low interest girls. You can't force them to like you, and there's not necessarily anything you're doing wrong. We all have different tastes and standards. Just keep chugging along, and meet new girls. At least you're trying.

Oh yeah, don't get involved with co-workers. Ever.

 

[Mike32ct]

Yeah you guys are right. I suspected it was looks from the beginning, but wasn't 100 % sure. I am now.

I was being overly optimistic when I said joining their clique was a "long shot.". It's more like an impossible shot and totally not worth it anyway.

If the OP wants to hang out with one of his good guy friends only, fine. But even if this was a popular guy and he invited girls, the girls would likely ignore the OP the entire night or give him one word replies while laughing at everything the better looking guy said.

I've been in that EXACT situation and it sucks. Better to just avoid it with your self-esteem intact.

Sorry LadyKiller. Nothing you can do.

 

[Trump]

The girls can't be friendly to all the guys at work with except you, there is something you are not telling us. Could be your race, could be your confidence, could be a rumor spread about you, could be your clothes, anything, but there is something you are leaving out.

"If I disappeared, don't think any of the girls would blink."

You have to lower the ego bro and start to focus on what's important. These girls dont know you and haven't done anything of value and you are already concerned about what they think of you.

 

[corrector]

The girls can't be friendly to all the guys at work with except you, there is something you are not telling us. Could be your race, could be your confidence, could be a rumor spread about you, could be your clothes, anything, but there is something you are leaving out.

"If I disappeared, don't think any of the girls would blink."

You have to lower the ego bro and start to focus on what's important. These girls dont know you and haven't done anything of value and you are already concerned about what they think of you.

Aside from the "looks" issue I think it's clear since he is attached to the outcome, or it's bothering him (which is why he's writing these threads) then he's giving off some sort of "desperate" vibe, even if it's subconcious and these girls are picking it up and it's just subtracting more points with his looks.

In this case he should just stick with the work at hand since rumours could start flying around, if he has not already. If he keeps pursuing these women, even in small talk, at work and it only takes one sexual harassment claim to make things even worst. Should just keep things strictly business and work.

It's one of those things that suck about "looks". If your looks suck, even if you engage in small talk, all it takes is one girl to say "this guy is creepy", and another girl to say "yeah, he approached me too" and you are finished. Girls are basically ego-tistical b1tches that takes any energy directed towards them, no matter how innoscious, as an "interest" because they are usually full of themselves. So even if you do something without value it could start a fire-storm rumour. Maybe they had a girls-night-out or whatever and started talking about guys and his name came up then "creepy". Who knows? Girls call guys with "looks" they don't like creepy all the time. It sounds like a toxic work-place and it's now a matter of keeping that job without it going worst.

 

[Young Stallion]

Aside from the "looks" issue I think it's clear since he is attached to the outcome, or it's bothering him (which is why he's writing these threads) then he's giving off some sort of "desperate" vibe, even if it's subconcious and these girls are picking it up and it's just subtracting more points with his looks.

In this case he should just stick with the work at hand since rumours could start flying around, if he has not already. If he keeps pursuing these women, even in small talk, at work and it only takes one sexual harassment claim to make things even worst. Should just keep things strictly business and work.

It's one of those things that suck about "looks". If your looks suck, even if you engage in small talk, all it takes is one girl to say "this guy is creepy", and another girl to say "yeah, he approached me too" and you are finished. Girls are basically ego-tistical b1tches that takes any energy directed towards them, no matter how innoscious, as an "interest" because they are usually full of themselves. So even if you do something without value it could start a fire-storm rumour. Maybe they had a girls-night-out or whatever and started talking about guys and his name came up then "creepy". Who knows? Girls call guys with "looks" they don't like creepy all the time. It sounds like a toxic work-place and it's now a matter of keeping that job without it going worst.

If this is the true nature of women, why would you or anyone else even bother talking to a girl? I absolutely know where the OP is coming from though.

 

[floydb25]

If this is the true nature of women, why would you or anyone else even bother talking to a girl? I absolutely know where the OP is coming from though.

It is, but not by all of them. It depends on the type of women. The gossipy, fake, popular, status *****s are the worst for this. Just gotta aim your targets differently - if all you encounter are snobs and followers. There's cute, shy, nice girls who don't care about this stuff, and don't compete or all this garbage. They also don't back-stab, criticize, or act like catty *****es. Always pay attention to the crowd someone belongs to, and how they act in general. They're not the diamond in the rough - they attract what they are.

Location is HUGE. Where I lived most of my life was full of fake *****es. Down south is a lot better. Just the people in general... They're more real and nice. Would never go back.

 

[corrector]

If this is the true nature of women, why would you or anyone else even bother talking to a girl? I absolutely know where the OP is coming from though.

Not all girls are like that.

 

[The LadyKiller]

I would think that looks are important for dating, not for friends/knowing people at work. These same girls have guy friends that are fat/ugly, so that very much counters some of the argument. For what it's worth, I'm not hideous looking as some of you predict. I have a very athletic physique/keep in shape.

And Mike, thanks for the 180 smh. I'm a hopeless case, really?

 

[Mike32ct]

I would think that looks are important for dating, not for friends/knowing people at work. These same girls have guy friends that are fat/ugly, so that very much counters some of the argument. For what it's worth, I'm not hideous looking as some of you predict. I have a very athletic physique/keep in shape.

And Mike, thanks for the 180 smh. I'm a hopeless case, really?

I have no doubts that you're at LEAST a decent looking, if not handsome guy. I mean that sincerely. When I discussed looks, I meant that these b&tchy girls have a very particular type that they go for. You not being their type doesn't equal ugly.

The funny thing is that these cliques aren't necessarily made up of the best looking guys, just those that fit the profile these girls are into. Yes, some of the guys could well be fat and nasty from our perspective, but they might have
some bad boy trait that these girls crave.

It is very difficult to join an existing clique that is excluding you for whatever reason. Honestly I was grasping at straws trying to come up with a backdoor method to get involved in their social gatherings.

I rarely back-pedal on my posts, but I did here because I think Floyd and corrector have a point.

So, no, it's at all a case of you being helpless, it's just a very difficult situation because these girls act like high school. I mean you are welcome to try my idea, but please don't expect much.

I run into the same situation at my work, and I've never been able to turn it around. I can also assure you that I'm not ugly at all. But my looks just don't ring their bell for whatever reason or they just don't feel I click with them.

The only other thing I can possibly think of is that it might be related to you supervising them?

A lot of work social cliques that do parties, happy hour, etc. have this unwritten rule not to invite the "boss.". I'm sure you do a great job supervising, but maybe this intimidates them and they keep their distance?

 

[floydb25]

I was under the impression that you wanted to date these girls. Typically that's what people come here for.

In the case of friendship, or whatever - its probably because you don't fit in their crowd. Everyone has their own crowd of people they instantly connect to. Most people are not accepting of those outside their crowd, and might even blast them (verbally) for being different.

I used to belong to the popular / shallow / status crowd, and that's all there was. People who would curse, look pretty, party, **** around, etc. We all had similar styles, tastes, personalities, etc. Everyone would act, talk, and dress the same, and associate with and date the same kind of person (fake, shallow, snobby, hot *****es). We all connected. There were no geeks, fat people, rednecks, etc in this crowd. Just a bunch of shallow retards, who would compete over who was the hottest and best.

People who didn't belong in this crowd were shunned and rejected. My friends would call the geeks, skaters, or rednecks fags and losers - when they thought the same about us. They were simply different.

This is the way it works. If you don't fit in their crowd - you're not likely to be accepted. You have to be just like them. Most people judge right away - they can sense if you belong. Your personalities and appearance typically click. If you're a bar ***** - you're gonna match with other bar *****s.

These days, I don't belong to any "crowd". It's dumb and pointless; mostly just to belong to something, and feel important. They can kiss my ass if they don't like me. I still have a popular, superficial, high class vibe, though, which still attracts retards. Just like to look nice. Beh.

 

[The LadyKiller]

Makes more sense now, thanks guys. Mike - nah I'm not anyone's boss. We're all the same "rank." The "supervising" I suggested earlier comes from one of the types of projects we do (it's not every day, maybe a couple of days per week). They need someone experienced/good at that particular job to run the team, especially since the other people involved are newer. It's like a sports team; we're all players, but I wear the proverbial captain's "C."

 

[SharinganUser]

You are there to work, so why do care what these chick think of you? If I were you I would find a hobby outside of work and meet people that way.

 

[The LadyKiller]

You are there to work, so why do care what these chick think of you? If I were you I would find a hobby outside of work and meet people that way.

At the top of the OP, I mention how we all relocate for the job, which is in a "slow" area and how, due to long hours, similarly-aged people at work and the area being slow, the people we will be friends with are all from work. My out-of-work friends live hours away, so that's not a solution.

I would have to try and make it work here socially.

 

[snowdog]

Only fags care about Facebook and Twitter friends.

Besides, you're at WORK. You're supposed to be working. Ever thought the girls are just trying to be professional while they're at work? You shouldn't even bother hitting on chicks at work, man. It's a recipe for disaster.

I don't know how long you're been working there, but it usually takes a while to become "one of the guys". You can be an outgoing guy, but are you also a likable guy? Are you authentic? Are you yourself without compromise?

I remember at my last job (I quit to focus more on my study), most people thought I was weird and kinda laughed about me at the start. I'm sure there was plenty of talking behind my back, too. I just didn't gave a flying f*ck and kept doing what I was doing: being myself, being different than everyone else. I'm not afraid of that. For example, I'm big on self-depreciating humor and I sing with the radio and stupid sh*t like that. I like, fun, man.

After a month or so though, all the "cool guys", including several guys in management, started hanging out with me during lunch and the coffee break.

Be yourself, don't be afraid to be 'out there', don't be afraid to be 'weird', don't expect anything and ignore negative signals. That doesn't mean that you have to be a kiss-ass. Everybody hates a brown-nose. I didn't take any bullsh*t from anybody. Even when someone 'above me' told me something I didn't agree with, I told them straight up. And, of course, I worked my ass off, that too.

It's called having a personality. Almost no one really has one. Don't be afraid to show off yours.

 

[SgtSplacker]

-You can find out where they go and just show up there one day.
-You can find out what TV shows they talk about and catch a couple episodes to have something to talk about.
-You can just be cool and funny and eventually they will trust you enough.
-Bring donuts or cupcakes to work.
-Wait for the xmas party.

Work relationships have many dynamics to them and are very cliquie. Just one person from the group that doesn't like you and your fate is sealed. You have to find out what their group is all about. Work cliques usually have themes:

- The weed smokers
- The coke heads
- The rockers
- The slackers
- The pop culture nerds
- Themed after a TV show
- The ones that get everything done
- The outcasts
- The MILF/Cougar party ladies
- The just out of HS to cool for school clique
- The this job sucks crew
- The parking lot posse
- Management

Find what they are all about and appeal to their interests. Even better find people that you naturally click with and hang with them so you don't have to be so fake.