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STR8UP

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Colossus said:
This is one point where I disagree with majority opinion. Like Jophil the Wise stated, how fast a girl a girl puts out is NOT and indicator of her interest so much as it is her valuation of herself.
Hellloooooo.....we live in the year 2009.......

Societal custom in today's America says that it's "ok" to give it up by date number 3.

In other words, if you are a chick, you can tell your friends you had sex with the guy after the third meeting and not be branded as a slvt. Any woman who makes you wait substantially longer is usually a religious nut that is going to give you SERIOUS grief, or a chick who is looking to string you along for attention.

Have fun with all that.
 

speed dawg

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STR8UP said:
Hellloooooo.....we live in the year 2009.......

Societal custom in today's America says that it's "ok" to give it up by date number 3.

In other words, if you are a chick, you can tell your friends you had sex with the guy after the third meeting and not be branded as a slvt. Any woman who makes you wait substantially longer is usually a religious nut that is going to give you SERIOUS grief, or a chick who is looking to string you along for attention.

Have fun with all that.
No wonder you learn seemingly everything the hard way. My hard and fast values would stick with me no matter what time period I'm in.
 

Colossus

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STR8UP said:
Hellloooooo.....we live in the year 2009.......

Societal custom in today's America says that it's "ok" to give it up by date number 3.

In other words, if you are a chick, you can tell your friends you had sex with the guy after the third meeting and not be branded as a slvt. Any woman who makes you wait substantially longer is usually a religious nut that is going to give you SERIOUS grief, or a chick who is looking to string you along for attention.

Have fun with all that.
What sort of messed up world are you living in?

Believe it or not Captain Cynicism (or should I say captain "realism"), your quaint explanation of girls who wait more than 3 dates being 'religious nuts' or attention wh0res is only you rationalizing your own experience with shallow, crap women.

Maybe, just maybe, there are girls who wait a little bit not only because they like you but because they respect themselves...even if it is 2009. Of course, in your world, you wouldnt know. Have fun with all that.
 

azanon

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About 5 months. Been married to this same woman 16 years plus now and it has been quite wonderful. FWIW, I get all I want now.

Would I wait 5 months now? No, most definitely not. And if I were single, that could be potentially a tragic thing given the hindsight I have on my marriage.

My advise would be if you're single, to simply not date steady unless you were getting it. If she makes you wait.... fine, but spin plates. I wouldn't necessarily recommend outright burning a bridge because you have to wait on one girl because it's possible she's worth it. Please take into consideration where I live though because people here are quite conservative (including women) compared to other parts of the U.S.
 

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BTW, you guys should consider ending the "generalization" war, wanting to put every woman in exactly the same behavioral box.

My (now) wife was clearly into me from the beginning. But like many here in AR, she was highly conservative, raised by very conservative parents, attended the same Baptist College I did, and responded/behaved in a predictable fashion by making me wait. Only way a man would get some from her early would be to slip her a date rape drug.

However, sure, many other women without all of those inhibitions that are taught either by parents, religion, whatever, will give into their natural reaction and give it up quite quickly if they're into you. I've dated and interacted with my share of these too, and confirmed this first hand.

So who's right? You both are, or you both aren't depending on how you want to look at it. But it seems like pretty much everyone here is guilty so far for over-generalization.
 

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jophil28 said:
THis is true as far as it goes BUT, if she gives it up to you in a flash, she will also do so with other men.
Depends. She might give it up fast to EVERY other man, or just the one's she's really into, big difference.

If you're at a point where broads are consistently giving it up easy for you, wheras before they were consistently holding off, than it is you who causing it, and not her sluttiness.
 

Paradox

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azanon said:
...it seems like pretty much everyone here is guilty so far for over-generalization.
How true. Here we go again with the "Why" question. Why does Betty Sue put out for John, Pete and Roy but not for me? Why does big fat Anne Lou throw herself at me all of the time?

Why a woman puts out on the first date or after the 3rd, 4th or 5th is a hard one to pin down. There are many factors involved. Some of the factors are environment, current emotional state, social conditioning, parental conditioning, hormonal levels, mental state....ect

One girl that I ended up having a 3 year LTR with put out on the first night.

Yet another wouldn't even give me a good night kiss on the lips until the 4th date. At the end of the 4th date we went back to her apt and she jumped me like an animal...lol

To answer the OP's question I've waited a year. The girl was a swimsuit model. We were on and off. I took here on 6 or 7 dates. Sometimes I let weeks go by before I called her back though. Also she was seeing a married guy who was paying her rent and screwing her.
 

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Colossus said:
What sort of messed up world are you living in?

Believe it or not Captain Cynicism (or should I say captain "realism"), your quaint explanation of girls who wait more than 3 dates being 'religious nuts' or attention wh0res is only you rationalizing your own experience with shallow, crap women.

Maybe, just maybe, there are girls who wait a little bit not only because they like you but because they respect themselves...even if it is 2009. Of course, in your world, you wouldnt know. Have fun with all that.
I'm with STR8UP.

For me, 3 dates (I prefer call them "outings") max. Anymore then she is someone to be seriously considered to be "nexted". She is either from a Religous Uprbringing, or she is already into the power game of using sex as a tool over you. Don't fall for that sucker. I have only made a handful of posts on this forum, but in my 39 years I have seen it all in regards to women
When it comes to sex and how long to wait - STR8UP is bang on the money.
Maybe you have to be an over 35 DJ to start realising this.
 

ketostix

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azanon said:
BTW, you guys should consider ending the "generalization" war, wanting to put every woman in exactly the same behavioral box.

My (now) wife was clearly into me from the beginning. But like many here in AR, she was highly conservative, raised by very conservative parents, attended the same Baptist College I did, and responded/behaved in a predictable fashion by making me wait. Only way a man would get some from her early would be to slip her a date rape drug.

However, sure, many other women without all of those inhibitions that are taught either by parents, religion, whatever, will give into their natural reaction and give it up quite quickly if they're into you. I've dated and interacted with my share of these too, and confirmed this first hand.

So who's right? You both are, or you both aren't depending on how you want to look at it. But it seems like pretty much everyone here is guilty so far for over-generalization.

Good point. A woman's behavior can differ based on her belief system. I believe the the validity of the sex-by-3 date rule for their purposes of dealing with most women, but I also think that most women aren't relationship material. The ones who are or are interested in a relation tend to wait longer to have sex. The problem is they don't tend to be single past the age of 25.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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I think one of the biggest mistakes guys against a 3 Strikes rule make is assuming that it means a guy would be so preoccupied with sex that you couldn't wait for 4-6 dates, and in some cases months. They assume that a 3 Strikes rule (or any rule dependent upon sexual reciprocation) makes them Players at best, superficial and sex-concerned at worst. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The mistake is to presume that a 3 date policy is some form of punishment for the girl for not having 'put out' soon enough to verify interest. It's not punishment, it's a fail-safe that serves to protect a guy from some protracted personal investment for a very limited return. The problem with the waiting is that while you are, most often you're divesting yourself from better potential opportunities with other women. This is exactly I mean when I go into the 'Sniper' mentality.

I've used this analogy before, but it bears repeating - too many guys think that they need to be a sniper with regards to women; patiently waiting for a single solitary target to be open for his one shot. Concentrating all his effort and focus on his "one big chance" to prove to her (and himself) that she's "the ONE."

The misunderstanding is to see a 3 Strikes rule as a threat. "She'd better put out after tonight or I'm outta here". I can see why that would place a burden upon a woman, but you must take into account why a 3 Strike rule would even be a necessary concept. 3 dates (and I mean real dates, none of this coffee / lunch crap) over the course of 3 weeks should be ample time to make the assessment as to whether a woman has interest and attraction enough to become intimate. Anything beyond this is indicative of filibustering on a woman's part and usually points to an only lukewarm IL if at all. In this way a 3 Strike rule benefits both men and women; why would either sex want to engage in a relationship that was lackluster from the start? Why would either want to be involved with a person who was settled on or settled for?

It's urgency and anxiety that makes for genuine, chemical-fueled sexual desire - not comfort, not familiarity. This is precisely why I say Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait. It's not that you can't have sex with her, it's that the sex is compromised, second choice sex. Often because her better prospect dried up and you were the next batter in the bullpen. It becomes mundane before anyone's clothes come off. She's not having sex with you be cause she's uncontrollably aroused by you, she's having sex with you because she feels obligated to. Having sex with a woman who doesn't want to is called rape.

We only chase what runs away from us.

Familiarity and comfort are anti-seductive. Remove that comfort and replace it with an unexpected, seemingly erratic response and you will create anxiety. This anxiety, discomfort and unpredictability is exactly what fosters sexual tension. This is the foundation of progressing from attraction into seduction and on to rapport.

Most AFCs have been conditioned for the better part of their lifetimes to think that comfort, friendship and familiarity are the way to a sexual state through a constant repetition of women telling them the same in order to avoid seeming shallow or as a preemptive ASD. The AFC only gets more frustrated when that same woman ends up ƒucking another guy after a second date. Why? Because that intercourse flowed from attraction into seduction into sexuality and THEN into rapport, with all the intervening stages of anxiety, uncertainty, discomfort and the imaginings that come with it. If the initial attraction is there, you should never need to plead your case or qualify yourself as a source of comfort and reliability; this is anti-sexual and women on some level of consciousness acknowledge this.
 

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Unbridled_Phoenix said:
However, I also bear in mind everything else we know, and I am not one to take a girl out on date after date without getting any. And I rarely do dinner dates anymore.
Of course. I'm not talking about a girl making a guy wait for "date after date." I'm saying that if a girl gives it up to you within the first two dates, she's probably just using you for sex. If it takes a little while longer than that, then she probably likes you. Of course, you have to at least marginally understand the difference between being friendzoned and getting used and a girl who is into you.

A good indicator, I think, is whether or not her tongue is in your mouth. Just because she's not having sex with you doesn't mean that other sexual things aren't happening.

STR8UP said:
Yea. Back in 1956.

Get a clue dude.

As aware as women are about their sexual reputation, they are even more keenly aware of the fact that if other women are willing to put out, they have to remain "competitive" or risk the guy walking.

Sex is a commodity women trade for attention.

If I'm not balls deep by date #2 or 3 (or at least seeing a reasonable progression) I'm OUT. And so should you, if you value you time and dignity as much as I do.
You are using logic to describe women. What you said makes logicaly sense....and that is exactly why it's not true.

You have a whole load of beliefs there that are damaging...For example, "sex is a commodity women trade for attention." That's pure horsesh1t. Sex is an extension of a woman's emotions....a way for her to experience men. Most sane women view sex in an emotional state. A way for her to experience emotions and feelings, receive validation, and develop intimacy. The women who don't view sex in that manner, are usually the sluts.

And it's interesting about your 3 date rule. The assumption behind that is that you aren't getting anything out of it unless you are having sex with her. It also assumes that you, the man, are giving your resources without getting other things (besides sex) in return. If you are doing these things, regardless of whether you are having sex or not, you are still embracing chump behavior.

Also, entering a date with that frame (that if she doesn't give it up quickly) is going to put you in the wrong frame. It's going to add unnecessary pressure to your interactions.

I attribute this general attitude around here to the swing of the pendullum. The men who come here have been walked on by girls for so long, that, when they DO change, they overcompensate...overshoot and move from being the "nice guy" into complete and total meatheads. If you're open to learning, though, the pendullum will swing back and you'll recognize that you can set boundaries (and hold those boundaries) without having damaging beliefs like the ones you are perpetuating.

Then you can recognize and understand women...and realize that there are other IOIs besides the common ones perpetuated in PUA. You'll release control of the outcome and stop trying to figure them out (they really aren't that complicated). And the moment you STOP trying to figure them out, you'll realize that you've figured them out. You'll stop holding ridiculous goals (such as sex on or before the 3rd date), you'll set realistic boundaries (as in, if the relationship isn't escalating in a sexual manner, you know that you'll eventually walk), and you'll stop labelling women as "HBs". There will be "Yes, she's hot" and "No thanks." You won't feel a need to rate women, you won't feel compelled to get sex from her right away, but you'll know when you are being duped. You'll be strong enough to walk away from a situation that you aren't getting something from. And, finally, you'll realize that there are more ways to escalate beyond just sex, that foreplay happens from the moment you say hello (and not the moment you feel her up), and that you have something to offer her (does she have something to offer YOU?).

Now I'm just rambling (and I threw in some extra stuff based on the attitudes I see on these forums). Mostly, I think a lot of "clue" getting needs to happen here. I don't pretend to be a guru on women, but I've figured out that much at least. And it works for me. :up:
 

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jophil28 said:
The length of time that some women wait is not a indication of their interest level in you so much as an indication of the depth of her mother's "teachings".
Like it or deny it, that is probably still the most powerful factor driving a woman's se3ual behavior.
My worst stretch was 7 very long months of total AFC one-itis. Only later did I learn that she did at least 6 other dudes WHILE I WAS WAITING - LOL - now! Mutual friends filled in the blanks later on. She only knew two of them longer than a month and rest were f'd within days of initially meeting. Obviously her mommy was teaching her something I would only become aware of later on in life. Clearly she isn't in the 'some women' group quoted above. But it goes to show you that just because we're waiting doesn't mean they're waiting.
 

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speed dawg said:
No wonder you learn seemingly everything the hard way. My hard and fast values would stick with me no matter what time period I'm in.
I've learned more in 37 years than most people learn in a lifetime.

And we aren't talking about you, we are talking about societal norms.

Colossus said:
What sort of messed up world are you living in?
The same messed up world everyone else is living in.

Believe it or not Captain Cynicism (or should I say captain "realism"), your quaint explanation of girls who wait more than 3 dates being 'religious nuts' or attention wh0res is only you rationalizing your own experience with shallow, crap women.
I find it amusing that everyone glosses over the part where I prefaced my statement with "Any woman who makes you wait substantially longer is usually....".

Maybe, just maybe, there are girls who wait a little bit not only because they like you but because they respect themselves...even if it is 2009. Of course, in your world, you wouldnt know. Have fun with all that.
I also find it amusing that guys who are in their 20's, barely out of college (or still in college) try to tell me that I am "rationalizing my own experience" and that I "wouldn't know" about women who "like you and respect themselves".

I've been rich, and I've been poor. I've been the Alpha and I've been the beta. I've been the guy hoping to fukk some broad, and I've been the guy who was fukking some broad while another dude was hoping he could fukk her.

Zunder nailed it with the age observation. With a few notable exceptions, most guys who aren't sniveling, pu$$y whipped manginas snap out of this fog by the time they hit their mid 30's. A few still cling to some kind of dogma or a fantasy. You have a good grasp of the basics. Hopefully you won't still be clinging to "hope" in a few years.

Paradox said:
To answer the OP's question I've waited a year. The girl was a swimsuit model. We were on and off. I took here on 6 or 7 dates. Sometimes I let weeks go by before I called her back though. Also she was seeing a married guy who was paying her rent and screwing her.
This brings up a couple of important points.

First off, this is all assuming that you are "dating" and things are moving forward, not some hanger-on type relationship where you are biding you r time waiting for a shot at the poon. Not saying I condone sitting on the sidelines for a year, but if you aren't putting much time or resources into it then it's not that big of a deal.

Secondly, note how the chick in this example was banging SOMEONE ELSE?

I've said this before but it bears repeating; there are many, MANY women out there who are fukking a dude on the regular (and lots of times he is MARRIED) who consider themselves to be single. They LOVE to date, and lots of times they will do EVERYTHING BUT have sex with you. You THINK you are "in", when in reality all you are doing is acting as an intimacy surrogate, someone who entertains her and fills her EMOTIONAL void, while the tatted up guitar player from the sh!tty local "indie" band is filling the "other" void.

Good luck with the optimistic approach fellas. Get some mileage on you dealing with women from all angles and it's pretty easy to see that a stop-loss is in order when it comes to this sort of thing. It's an individual call that should not be set in stone (3 dates is just a guideline), but always look at it like she's either boffing someone else or she's "just not that into you" until she proves otherwise. It's just good business.

THIS is yet another reason why you never give the benefit of the doubt...

Sinistar said:
My worst stretch was 7 very long months of total AFC one-itis. Only later did I learn that she did at least 6 other dudes WHILE I WAS WAITING - LOL - now! Mutual friends filled in the blanks later on. She only knew two of them longer than a month and rest were f'd within days of initially meeting.
 

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Vypros said:
When a girl gives it up right away, she doesn't see you as any kind of serious potential boyfriend or anything like that. When she holds off, she's into you and wants more than just sex.

I have heard this logic from more women than I can count.
This is what I've experienced as well. Same with condom use. If they want to trap you they'll do a nice song & dance about how you look safe, they're on the pill, etc.

Tom Leykis had a episode about this last year. I'll see if I can find the link to the podcast.
 

Zunder

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Vypros said:
Of course. I'm not talking about a girl making a guy wait for "date after date." I'm saying that if a girl gives it up to you within the first two dates, she's probably just using you for sex. If it takes a little while longer than that, then she probably likes you. Of course, you have to at least marginally understand the difference between being friendzoned and getting used and a girl who is into you.

A good indicator, I think, is whether or not her tongue is in your mouth. Just because she's not having sex with you doesn't mean that other sexual things aren't happening.



You are using logic to describe women. What you said makes logicaly sense....and that is exactly why it's not true.

You have a whole load of beliefs there that are damaging...For example, "sex is a commodity women trade for attention." That's pure horsesh1t. Sex is an extension of a woman's emotions....a way for her to experience men. Most sane women view sex in an emotional state. A way for her to experience emotions and feelings, receive validation, and develop intimacy. The women who don't view sex in that manner, are usually the sluts.

And it's interesting about your 3 date rule. The assumption behind that is that you aren't getting anything out of it unless you are having sex with her. It also assumes that you, the man, are giving your resources without getting other things (besides sex) in return. If you are doing these things, regardless of whether you are having sex or not, you are still embracing chump behavior.

Also, entering a date with that frame (that if she doesn't give it up quickly) is going to put you in the wrong frame. It's going to add unnecessary pressure to your interactions.

I attribute this general attitude around here to the swing of the pendullum. The men who come here have been walked on by girls for so long, that, when they DO change, they overcompensate...overshoot and move from being the "nice guy" into complete and total meatheads. If you're open to learning, though, the pendullum will swing back and you'll recognize that you can set boundaries (and hold those boundaries) without having damaging beliefs like the ones you are perpetuating.

Then you can recognize and understand women...and realize that there are other IOIs besides the common ones perpetuated in PUA. You'll release control of the outcome and stop trying to figure them out (they really aren't that complicated). And the moment you STOP trying to figure them out, you'll realize that you've figured them out. You'll stop holding ridiculous goals (such as sex on or before the 3rd date), you'll set realistic boundaries (as in, if the relationship isn't escalating in a sexual manner, you know that you'll eventually walk), and you'll stop labelling women as "HBs". There will be "Yes, she's hot" and "No thanks." You won't feel a need to rate women, you won't feel compelled to get sex from her right away, but you'll know when you are being duped. You'll be strong enough to walk away from a situation that you aren't getting something from. And, finally, you'll realize that there are more ways to escalate beyond just sex, that foreplay happens from the moment you say hello (and not the moment you feel her up), and that you have something to offer her (does she have something to offer YOU?).

Now I'm just rambling (and I threw in some extra stuff based on the attitudes I see on these forums). Mostly, I think a lot of "clue" getting needs to happen here. I don't pretend to be a guru on women, but I've figured out that much at least. And it works for me. :up:
This is all interesting stuff, Vypros.
Its fantasy, IMHO, but interesting nontheless.
You seem to have a lily white view of women.
For instance, do you really believe the "girls" don't get together and "rate" men? Do you really believe they don't talk about sex with their friends in terms that would make even Larry Flynt flinch?
Florence Nightingale does not exist.
 

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jophil28

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Sinistar said:
My worst stretch was 7 very long months of total AFC one-itis. Only later did I learn that she did at least 6 other dudes WHILE I WAS WAITING - LOL - now! Mutual friends filled in the blanks later on. She only knew two of them longer than a month and rest were f'd within days of initially meeting. Obviously her mommy was teaching her something I would only become aware of later on in life. Clearly she isn't in the 'some women' group quoted above. But it goes to show you that just because we're waiting doesn't mean they're waiting.
Another good reason to "ask for the order" at some stage.
 

Vypros

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Zunder said:
You seem to have a lily white view of women.
Heh, I consider that a compliment. Up until about a year ago, I had a deep-seated bitter view of women and one of my personal development goals was to let go of that and move past it. So thanks. I must be doing something right. :D

Zunder said:
For instance, do you really believe the "girls" don't get together and "rate" men? Do you really believe they don't talk about sex with their friends in terms that would make even Larry Flynt flinch?
Florence Nightingale does not exist.
Come on man. I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. Of course I realize this. In fact, everything that the people here accuse women of doing? Yeah, men do the same thing too. Just in different ways. All the complaints you see here about the things women do? Yeah, there are boards on the net filled with women who complain about the things men do. None of us are innocent. And all of us (both men and women) are guilty of projections. We project our insecurities onto the opposite sex, and then bash the hell out of them for it. Men and women are guilty of that.

My point? I don't care what they do. Why? Because I have boundaries. And I make those boundaries clear up front. Lie to me? You're gone. Cheat on me when we become exclusive? You're gone. Have a problem with my kids or the time I spend with them? You're gone.

Instead of playing games to get women, I've discovered that I don't HAVE to. I don't have to worry about neg hits or DHVs. I don't need to carry a mental list of openers in my head. Why? Because I've discovered that all I have to do to do that stuff NATURALLY is to assert myself...the be myself...to love myself. I mean, I haven't faced ALL of my insecurities yet, but I'm working at them and I have come far enough to be building a base of self-confidence in myself that I know will weather the hardest tests.

What women do....how they treat men....the thing that people ***** about here all the time....I don't worry about it. Because I can't control it. I can't change it. The only thing I have the power to change is myself. And by doing so I live life on my terms.
 

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Vypros said:
Heh, I consider that a compliment. Up until about a year ago, I had a deep-seated bitter view of women and one of my personal development goals was to let go of that and move past it. So thanks. I must be doing something right. :D



Come on man. I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. Of course I realize this. In fact, everything that the people here accuse women of doing? Yeah, men do the same thing too. Just in different ways. All the complaints you see here about the things women do? Yeah, there are boards on the net filled with women who complain about the things men do. None of us are innocent. And all of us (both men and women) are guilty of projections. We project our insecurities onto the opposite sex, and then bash the hell out of them for it. Men and women are guilty of that.

My point? I don't care what they do. Why? Because I have boundaries. And I make those boundaries clear up front. Lie to me? You're gone. Cheat on me when we become exclusive? You're gone. Have a problem with my kids or the time I spend with them? You're gone.

Instead of playing games to get women, I've discovered that I don't HAVE to. I don't have to worry about neg hits or DHVs. I don't need to carry a mental list of openers in my head. Why? Because I've discovered that all I have to do to do that stuff NATURALLY is to assert myself...the be myself...to love myself. I mean, I haven't faced ALL of my insecurities yet, but I'm working at them and I have come far enough to be building a base of self-confidence in myself that I know will weather the hardest tests.

What women do....how they treat men....the thing that people ***** about here all the time....I don't worry about it. Because I can't control it. I can't change it. The only thing I have the power to change is myself. And by doing so I live life on my terms.
Good stuff, you are obviously an intelligent young man.
Just remember, although your way of acting "naturally" is right for you - for a lot of men, acting "naturally" makes them look like natural born chumps.
This is where forums such as this can be useful.

I have not used "one-liners" for years and years. Like you, I have now an ability to talk to women that comes naturally - but certainly lets them know I am not some pushover, wimpy afc, wussy - whatever label you want to give it.
 

Vypros

Master Don Juan
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Zunder said:
Good stuff, you are obviously an intelligent young man.
Just remember, although your way of acting "naturally" is right for you - for a lot of men, acting "naturally" makes them look like natural born chumps.
This is where forums such as this can be useful.

I have not used "one-liners" for years and years. Like you, I have now an ability to talk to women that comes naturally - but certainly lets them know I am not some pushover, wimpy afc, wussy - whatever label you want to give it.
Yeah, and honestly, I don't begrudge people from getting into PUA techniques. I was there at one time. I think PUA is like training wheels. It gives you the fuel and the balance to go when you don't have the confidence, until you get to a place where you don't need it anymore.

It's just one leg of the journey. I just urge people to be cautious and not get stuck in that first leg of the journey, because there is so much more out there.
 

jophil28

Master Don Juan
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Vypros said:
My point? I don't care what they do. Why? Because I have boundaries. And I make those boundaries clear up front. Lie to me? You're gone. Cheat on me when we become exclusive? You're gone. Have a problem with my kids or the time I spend with them? You're gone.
I want you in my platoon .

THis guy 'gets' it.
 
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