What would war in the future be about, oil or water?

[Latinoman]

I'm sorry to break the news to all the ignorant Americans who know nothing of foreign relations, but USA is probably the most HATED country in the world.

.

The U.S. is also the country that gives the most (aid, $$$, food, etc.) too. When something goes terribly wrong via man made or natural disasters...the one contributing the most is the U.S.

 

[Throttle]

Japan attacked us. Oil was the underline issue.

military power (particularly naval power) was the underlying issue. oil was a means to that end. if you could run a modern navy on something else, Japan wouldn't have cared about oil at all.

if oil were the primary goal, Japan would have attacked the Dutch East Indies. there's no oil (that they have taken home) at Pearl Harbor. the goal was to knock out the US navy, not cut off or take any oil we already had access to.

in this case, it's self-justifying (& circular reasoning). why do you need oil? to maintain a navy. why do you need a navy? to maintain access to oil.

 

[Throttle]

The U.S. is also the country that gives the most (aid, $$$, food, etc.) too. When something goes terribly wrong via man made or natural disasters...the one contributing the most is the U.S.

sometimes as a raw nominal figure, yes. but only because we have the largest economy in the world. by percentage of GDP, etc. we are nearly always put to shame (except that we generally have no shame.....)

 

[gmillar]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/files/story2540.php

 

[Throttle]

You guys will always find a way to blame America. This stuff is old, man.

"America doesn't help enough!"
"We help more than anybody else."
"Well, not when you go by percentages!"

Just post a couple of far-left websites in your sig and save us the trouble. If I want some anti-America rhetoric, I'll just type in "fuсk Bush" into Google and have a nice big dose of Rosie O'Donnell/George Soros/Tim Robbins shoved down my throat.

I'm not far left (far from it), and I didn't say it was necessarily a problem. But if you're going to throw around numbers, make sure they're the right & relevant ones.

 

[bigjohnson]

.... we wine and complain....

Speak for yourself. I never wine and complain, wine generally makes me happy. If I'm pissed off it's scotch for me, with ice.

 

[Throttle]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/files/story2540.php

key sentence:

"Ultimately, for all the CDI's focus on winners and losers, no wealthy country lives up to its potential to help poor countries. Generosity and leadership remain in short supply."

let's hold the applause (for everyone! but especially the self-congratulatory American backslapping) until any of this shows tangible, permanent effects where the help is needed most.

most of the US foreign aid budget is blown on the bribes that Jimmy Carter promised to Israel & Egypt as part of his "visionary" (sic) peace plan in the late 1970s.

 

[seanchai]

You guys will always find a way to blame America. This stuff is old, man.

"America doesn't help enough!"
"We help more than anybody else."
"Well, not when you go by percentages!"

Just post a couple of far-left websites in your sig and save us the trouble. If I want some anti-America rhetoric, I'll just type in "fu?k Bush" into Google and have a nice big dose of Rosie O'Donnell/George Soros/Tim Robbins shoved down my throat.

Dude, do you EVER debate this stuff? All I ever see is "far-left this, far-left that." You're not changing anyone's mind and it would be nice to see how you actually think about this stuff.

Not that I necessarily disagree with you. I think America gets shat upon entirely too much when it comes to giving, although some countries do give more as a percentage of GDP and that's laudatory.

 

[Latinoman]

military power (particularly naval power) was the underlying issue. oil was a means to that end. if you could run a modern navy on something else, Japan wouldn't have cared about oil at all.

if oil were the primary goal, Japan would have attacked the Dutch East Indies. there's no oil (that they have taken home) at Pearl Harbor. the goal was to knock out the US navy, not cut off or take any oil we already had access to.

in this case, it's self-justifying (& circular reasoning). why do you need oil? to maintain a navy. why do you need a navy? to maintain access to oil.

Listen if you are going to debate me on this, please grab a history book FIRST as I don't like to waste my time. Let me educate you on this issue. Japan needed oil to conclude the war in China succesfully. When the China issue started in 1937, Japan imported 2/3 of their oil from the USA. The USA could not give Japan a "license" to destroy China. Instead the USA stance hardened. When Japan invaded China, the USA also prohibit the export of scrap metal to Japan and froze Japanese assets in the US. Then came the embargo.

Japan needed oil to finish the war in China and we did not want to give them that oil.

 

[Throttle]

please don't try to "educate" a college instructor on this subject in an internet forum, it's embarassing. also, read the post before your quick comeback. my point is not that oil wasn't an issue, it's that oil itself was only a means to an end.

the US could and would have let Japan destroy China, if we had not the means to stop them. nobody gives a crap about oil except as a means. oil is never an "end" but rather a "means." That's my objection to nearly all the logic presented by others in this thread about oil & fresh water.

 

[belividere]

oil will always be around -- right now oil producers still leave the majority of a field's potential output in the ground because it's not economical to pull out. proven oil reserves are at their highest in human history. as the price of oil goes up (a) more and more marginal fields will become economical, including ones previously 'emptied' and abandoned (b) carbon based alternatives (tar sands, oil shale) will become economical and (c) all alternatives will become more economical.

When shale can be refined the world will have much more oil potential then it does now. It really is economics. When wet wells run dry shale refining will take over. Canada will be loaded. Energy is also not mutually exclusive to oil. Garbage is filled with energy it just takes some skill to harvest it without a net energy loss.

Water on the other hand is fairly limited in most of the world. It is also a bit difficult to purify water without wasting a lot of it and using a lot of energy. I wouldn't think there will be many international wars over water, but local wars definitely could happen if they haven't already.

 

[Last Man Standing]

Listen if you are going to debate me on this, please grab a history book FIRST as I don't like to waste my time. Let me educate you on this issue. Japan needed oil to conclude the war in China succesfully. When the China issue started in 1937, Japan imported 2/3 of their oil from the USA. The USA could not give Japan a "license" to destroy China. Instead the USA stance hardened. When Japan invaded China, the USA also prohibit the export of scrap metal to Japan and froze Japanese assets in the US. Then came the embargo.

Japan needed oil to finish the war in China and we did not want to
give them that oil.

Latinoman - what books are you reading????? This is sooooo wrong!!! THe Matrix has you!!! The US knew Japan was going to attack pearl harbor weeks before the attack because we broke their codes!!

We provoked Japan to attack us by blocking their oil and other ships coming from other nations - this is an act of war on our part!!!!!! US was not their only oil source - they have oil elsewhere - take 3 guesses where!!! (read some history books). We wanted them to attack so that we can enter the war and have the "people" behind us (as in 911) to go to war - to get the sheeple to risk their souls on a manufactured war (ALL WARS ARE MANUFACTURED AND BASED ON LIES!!!!!) - we wanted Japan in the war so that we can forever have a dominating military and Economic presence in ASIA - AS IS THE CASE TODAY!!!!!!!

Wars are about consolidating power and territory in fewer and fewer hands!! The US controls ASIA today as well as other continents!! Japan is our bytch today - she does what her pimp tells her!!!!

Japan did not attack to destroy our navy - they attacked the wrong port!!! We knew in advance that they were coming - our advanced ships were not there - we took them out - we let it happen - America knew that if you don't fight then you will not get the spoils of war!!!!

You guys will always find a way to blame America. This stuff is old, man.

Deus - why do you hate reality so much -- accept it and live in peace!!! Truth is good and lies are bad - repeat! 5 times!!

 

[seanchai]

please don't try to "educate" a college instructor on this subject in an internet forum, it's embarassing. also, read the post before your quick comeback. my point is not that oil wasn't an issue, it's that oil itself was only a means to an end.

the US could and would have let Japan destroy China, if we had not the means to stop them. nobody gives a crap about oil except as a means. oil is never an "end" but rather a "means." That's my objection to nearly all the logic presented by others in this thread about oil & fresh water.

Cool, what/where do you teach?

It seems moot to me whether oil is a means or an end. It's not like you can find another route to the end "power our petroleum-powered war machines".

 

[Throttle]

eh i like a little bit of privacy on the 'net when letting my opinions drop like bombs, but I teach political science / international relations at a major American public university. one day they may even let me leave with a PhD (spending time on sosuave helps delay the inevitable, lol!)

 

[Throttle]

Water on the other hand is fairly limited in most of the world. It is also a bit difficult to purify water without wasting a lot of it and using a lot of energy. I wouldn't think there will be many international wars over water, but local wars definitely could happen if they haven't already.

i tend to agree... and people underestimate just how important fresh water is as an issue between Israel and the Palestinians, not to mention with Israel's neighbors like Syria. But fresh water is by its very nature a local issue, and the big fights over it are usual legal battles, b/c it's (usually) not worth gearing up the machines of war over.

But the title of this thread is comparing apples & oranges, because petroleum has always been a global commodity (it's various grades and 'flavors' notwithstanding) while fresh water has always been local and its provision has (usually) been by public utility (experiments to the contrary in Latin America are going over like a lead balloon).

If you want to conserve either one, price it properly.

 

[Last Man Standing]

.....while fresh water has always been local and its provision has (usually) been by public utility (experiments to the contrary in Latin America are going over like a lead balloon)..

Professor, do you want to expound on this "experiment" further (as you delicately put it) and give us the true events??? Or should I do it?

 

[Throttle]

go for it, and have fun. and seriously, w/o the phd i'm just "lecturer throttle"

 

[Rebound Material]

women

 

[Last Man Standing]

...fresh water has always been local and its provision has (usually) been by public utility (experiments to the contrary in Latin America are going over like a lead balloon).

If you want to conserve either one, price it properly.

Professor, do you want to expound on this "experiment" further (as you delicately put it) and give us the true events??? Or should I do it?

go for it, and have fun. and seriously, w/o the phd i'm just "lecturer throttle"

.A PhD is only good for credentials to bring "legitimacy" as an "expert" in a particular field of study - a few people determine your credentials to be respected by the whole populous as "worthy" - but knowing and embracing TRUTH is the greatest degree of achievement!!!!

What is happening in Latin America is what is happening all over the world!!! The natural resources of that country/region is being “privatized” (those with the most money own that resource!!!) so that the resource will be extricated from those who live in that area and who are dependent of that resource and placed in the hands of a few select individuals who do not even live there!!!! This is done through trickery/deceit and through force!!!

Research the IMF/World Bank and “Structural adjustments” – these fraudulent institutions burden the whole populous due to the decision of one leader and his governmental cohorts, with infrastructural debt that they can never repay (they force these loans through threats of assassination and military threats upon the decision makers of the country) and then relieve them of this fraudulent debt ONLY IF they give their (the country’s) natural resources to them as repayment!!! Thus WATER, OIL, ELETRICITY, ROADS.. NATURAL GAS, ETC... are available to “private” parties (those aligned with the dominant military might) to control --- they always raise prices to extravagant levels to burden those who naturally own the resource, the citizenry of the country - it doesn’t make sense – but this is the reality!!

Why can't those who live in the COUNTRY control their own natural resources WHO CAN PROVIDE IT AT HALF THE COST?????

I gave links here on this thread – referring to this topic….refer to my links…
on page 7 post #137!!
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=122135&page=7

 

[Latinoman]

We provoked Japan to attack us by blocking their oil and other ships coming from other nations - this is an act of war on our part!!!!!! US was not their only oil source - they have oil elsewhere - take 3 guesses where!!! (read some history books).

Wasn't I clear with what I said?

1- Oil was the catalist to the issue that lead to a war.

2- U.S. provided 2/3 of the oil and petroleum (refined) to Japan. Of course, 1/3 came from somewhere else.

3- The U.S. put an embargo on Japan that included OIL as well as scrap metals.