We Are Straying from the Path that was Laid out Before Us

[STR8UP]

Going back to the AFC theme. I think the idea of men who have options, who date many women, or who live life not in an immoral way but by their own rules, truly scares people.

Of course they do. It threatens the very fabric of society. If we don't have all of these "sacrificial lambs" out there to "do the right thing", society as we know it continues into the freefall.

And just what "path is laid out before us" anyway? I know what it is. It's the AFC path that our lead poster wants us to go down, and that society wants us to walk on. Sorry, I've done that and it didn't pay off.

That was my question too. The "path" that society lays out for you turns you into a spineless beta male, a cog in the wheel of the machine.

Good stuff, WestCoaster.

The problem with this debate is that every time it gets started, a false dichotomy is created: You are either a savage, fukking and eating manimal or you are a righteous, sanctimonious choir boy.

The existence of our biological drive to survive does not necessarily preclude or override us from making sound moral judgments.

Yep, you are either an angel or a devil, in the world of black and white in which the moralists believe.

I'm probably a hell of a lot more "moral" than the average person, but I have no delusions as to my "higher self" being in complete control all of my biological urges, nor do I WANT it to. There is a reason why we have the internal drives that we do. It is to ensure our survival.

 

[Interceptor]

^^^^^^^^^^
Wha,..? Where's the quick hit filler post from IQQI? Oh OK, I'll do it for her, "Great post VU, glad to see there's someone here who still gets it." :yes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interceptor
I also have a hard time understanding the logic of a person who thinks having Morals automatically means one is effeminate, dumb, naive, easily manipulated, and a hypocrite. Just because one actively chooses ethical consideration, humanity, respect and consideration, and moral choices does not make one weak, or un assertive, or a coward. One can have morals and still have knockout power in both his hands and knock the sh*t out of someone who fvcks with him physically when he said "Stop" and the other guy didnt...



A rich man doesn't need to tell you he's rich. You can detect it in his dress, his attitude, his mindset, his mannerisms, etc. It's the guy who overtly proclaims "I'm so ƒucking rich,.." followed by a list of qualifiers who we suspect of being insecure about that actual wealth. The same follows for morality; it's the people who wear it on their sleeve and advise others to do so too who we doubt first. Why is it so important to this guy to broadcast himself as being so ethical?

The problem with this concept is that morality needs to be appreciated for it to really be validated, but in advertising one's own moral values he paints a target on himself. Fishing for that appreciation turns virtue into vanity. This then becomes further complicated when they seek like qualities in women. They want a woman who'll genuinely see the strength in that moral conviction, and perhaps they find her, but then wonder why she's dull and uninspired. This may not universally be the case - and with the argument of how preciously rare "quality women" really are in mind - it's generally observed that women who also proclaim higher moral character also tend to be the most inhibited. You could also argue that those morals prompt that inhibition, but equally say that her inhibition inspired her professed morality.

Some good points here.

But what does that have to do with my specific post you quoted?

 

[Interceptor]

Westcoaster wrote:
And just what "path is laid out before us" anyway? I know what it is. It's the AFC path that our lead poster wants us to go down, and that society wants us to walk on. Sorry, I've done that and it didn't pay off.


Lefty Loosey wrote:

It's time for real men to stand up for morality and good old-fashioned values. If that means being celibate in protest, so be it. Men are no longer going to have sex with married women, we're no longer going to cheat, and we're not going to deceive.
Be reclusive if necessary, be rocks, be men and be proud of yourselves. There's a certain peace that comes over all of us when we realize our actions do not hurt others. We feel it because we've done right. If we want our women to be moral, we have to set the example; it's our job as men to do so.



Westcoaster, while I dont agree with some of the verbatim statements by Lefty, I do agree with the Intent to truly help men be fulfilled by lasting, durable things that can offer lasting happiness and peace of mind.
(However, we have to acknowledge that different people have different views on what is happiness and what can make one happy, and same goes for being fulfilled. But since we're all humans, we all have the same Needs. And some people dont really value or even know just what is peace of mind. So no wonder there can be so much miscommunication, and misunderstaning.)


However, you seem to know from personal experience how these concepts 'did not pay off' for you.
I was wondering if you could elaborate on how these things Lefty is talking about, which I emphasized (hopefully Im getting the gist of what is being implied), which you disagree with and how it 'didnt pay off'.
Didnt pay off in getting , achieving, or being what exactly?

 

[Interceptor]

Good stuff, WestCoaster.

The problem with this debate is that every time it gets started, a false dichotomy is created: You are either a savage, fukking and eating manimal or you are a righteous, sanctimonious choir boy.

The existence of our biological drive to survive does not necessarily preclude or override us from making sound moral judgments.

Nevertheless, I will always believe that the biological imperative is what came first in this chicken/egg debate. For instance - language was developed by our advanced minds as a tool of survival before it became a palette art and literature. FIRST we learned to communicate verbally to outwit our prey. Later we expanded our horizons, recorded history, wrote laws, etc.

I also believe, reduced to nothing but the means to survive, those reptilian impulses will surface.

Anyway, I'm going out to game some chicks.

This is a great post.

 

[guru1000]

Yo Troops!


It is a disappointing sight whenever you see a man, ANY MAN, sell his soul (comprised of the integrity and the soundness of his mind, his will, and his emotions) for the sake of any ONE thing, ONE idea, or ONE urge. This singularity mindset often is the precursor of a compartmentalized point of view-------a point of view that leads him to over-value that one thing to the point where he only sees significance in the part, and sees absolutely NO SIGINIFICANCE or RELEVANCE in the whole.

This then, leads him to devalue other things for the sake of the pursuit of the ONE thing. For some, this thing is SEX. And for those men, this brand of extremist thinking can cross the line into self-delusion. And ultimately, it reaches the point where they make their viewpoint their “religion”, and they subsequently worship at the altar of Pusssy------so much so that they make their sex drive their Gods, their Dikks their divining rods-------and their ejaculations their salvation.

It is no wonder that some of these men think so lowly of women AS A WHOLE, because this is such an excellent Scapegoating Method to use for the purpose of sidestepping even the smallest chance of taking ANY responsibility for being just a little bit of the “low-life” themselves.

To these men, the very idea that in some cases, both he AND THE WOMAN could realistically share parts of the blame is UNTHINKABLE------or “AFC” even.

Nevertheless, for a good portion of these men who have placed their faith ONLY in their urges, some have learned much to their chagrin that far from divining rods, what their dikks have actually become are just biological leashes that those women who are enemies to their souls (their minds, their wills, and their emotions) use to pull them places where they’d rather not be--------take them further than they initially wanted to go-------------and KEEP them longer than they ever planned on staying.

Many men HERE who have “figuratively” fought alongside me in this never-ending war to elevate, escalate, and revelate “from” the more mundane manners of maleness and “towards” a more magnificent and magnanimous measures of MANHOOD, have found that it is, indeed-----------a mission WORTH taking.

Yes, for these men, the revelation that they are far more than just a collection of body parts that exist ONLY for the purpose to be slavishly driven to pursue a “complementary” collection of body parts---------has been a liberating experience.

Many of their eyes are open.

Many of their minds are open.

And many of their HEARTS are open, as well.

They are open, yes, but NOT to the pitfalls awaiting the novice, nor to the deceptions awaiting the naïve, but rather,-------------they are open to POSSIBILITIES. This is the Mature Man Forum. There are NO un-enlisted civilians here------just soldiers. And MOST-------motherfukkin’ VETERANS.

And many have confided in me over the years that it was their mere “BELIEF” in just the POSSIBILITY that men empowered by knowledge, fortified with inner strength, and equipped with a clarity of vision that allows them to see MILES, and sometimes even YEARS past the lengths of their dikks--------that made ALL THE DIFFERENCE.

For these men, the foundational revelation was simply this:

Manhood is NOT just about growing “a pair”, it’s about growing in your perception---------AND growing the FUKK UP.


Soldier on.

:yes:

 

[Tazman]

Wha,..? Where's the quick hit filler post from IQQI? Oh OK, I'll do it for her, "Great post VU, glad to see there's someone here who still gets it."

When I first saw this I chuckled, but to see it play out a couple of posts after was priceless, lol.

 

[iqqi]

When I first saw this I chuckled, but to see it play out a couple of posts after was priceless, lol.

Do you think that maybe that was on purpose?

:crazy:

 

[Tazman]

^^^ Obviously, lol.

 

[steviecruiser]

I get a fcking head ache reading all this pretentious fancy jargon most of you post. Keep it simple

Morals are necessary for the world to remain in order. However we are all human and subject to sin.

 

[LeftyLoosey]

Okay, okay... no no no... wait, yeah... okay, okay, I think I got it.

SO... I can't disagree with Rollo's argument that at the end of the day, all of our so-called morally driven aspirations are rooted in the biological imperative that drives us.

Therefore, Mr. Str8up, let me offer the following:

PERHAPS, if men choose a path that APPEARS to be that of the AFC (i.e., not cheating, not sleeping with married women, not sleeping with nasty women), while maintaining and possessing the wisdom of the DJ, at the end of the day, it will likely result in men achieving GREATER status and acceptance by society, and access to a better selection of the female gene pool with which he can mix his seed.

What I'm suggesting is that if you make yourself into the good neighbour that society wants you to be while avoiding the traps (marriage, etc.), in the end you will obtain more of what it was you wanted in the first place.

Shall we call this a truce? :flowers:

 

[steviecruiser]

Okay, okay... no no no... wait, yeah... okay, okay, I think I got it.

SO... I can't disagree with Rollo's argument that at the end of the day, all of our so-called morally driven aspirations are rooted in the biological imperative that drives us.

Therefore, Mr. Str8up, let me offer the following:

PERHAPS, if men choose a path that APPEARS to be that of the AFC (i.e., not cheating, not sleeping with married women, not sleeping with nasty women), while maintaining and possessing the wisdom of the DJ, at the end of the day, it will likely result in men achieving GREATER status and acceptance by society, and access to a better selection of the female gene pool with which he can mix his seed.

What I'm suggesting is that if you make yourself into the good neighbour that society wants you to be while avoiding the traps (marriage, etc.), in the end you will obtain more of what it was you wanted in the first place.

Shall we call this a truce? :flowers:

If anybody ever needed a slap across the face it would be you. STFU!

 

[WestCoaster]

Westcoaster wrote:



However, you seem to know from personal experience how these concepts 'did not pay off' for you.
I was wondering if you could elaborate on how these things Lefty is talking about, which I emphasized (hopefully Im getting the gist of what is being implied), which you disagree with and how it 'didnt pay off'.
Didnt pay off in getting , achieving, or being what exactly?

It didn't pay off for me in relationships, career, moving forward. Every time I've focused or built my life around a woman, it's failed, period. By the way, I don't sleep with married women, and when I have a serious girlfriend, I don't play around on her either.

Lefty's post talked about reforming women and the only way they'll shape up is if men do. That's the biggest bunch of B.S. I've ever read.

Women do what they want to do when they want to do it. I've known many Christian women who were very quick to jump into bed with the first thing because, well, they had a bad day at the office, a bad hair day, or because it felt good.

This whole, "We can change the world" with our morality is just a crock.

They key isn't going on some path or trying to change the world. The key is finding yourself with your personality, your career, and yes, your woman. You pick the right career, you live how you feel comfortable (hopefully that doesn't mean hurting others), and finally the key to getting the right one isn't to try and transform her through your own morality, but by PICKING THE RIGHT WOMAN.

Most people's personalities -- their morality, especially -- is pretty imbedded by their teenage years. Yes, many people have change themselves, but many more have not. I'd say less than 1 percent of all society has made dramatic personality changes in their lives.

The key is for the man live his life full of confidence and living his life right. Trying to change the world or women through some moral path taken is frankly hilarious.

 

[Trader]

Lefty's post talked about reforming women and the only way they'll shape up is if men do. That's the biggest bunch of B.S. I've ever read.

Women do what they want to do when they want to do it. I've known many Christian women who were very quick to jump into bed with the first thing because, well, they had a bad day at the office, a bad hair day, or because it felt good.

This whole, "We can change the world" with our morality is just a crock.

They key isn't going on some path or trying to change the world. The key is finding yourself with your personality, your career, and yes, your woman. You pick the right career, you live how you feel comfortable (hopefully that doesn't mean hurting others), and finally the key to getting the right one isn't to try and transform her through your own morality, but by PICKING THE RIGHT WOMAN.

Most people's personalities -- their morality, especially -- is pretty imbedded by their teenage years. Yes, many people have change themselves, but many more have not. I'd say less than 1 percent of all society has made dramatic personality changes in their lives.

The key is for the man live his life full of confidence and living his life right. Trying to change the world or women through some moral path taken is frankly hilarious.

What's funny is how some Don Juans harp on and on about the POWER you have when you *set the frame* and *lead the girl* when it comes to things like making the first move, asking for her number, planning dates

But when it comes to leading the girl in a moral capacity - it's always: 'Oh you can't lead the girl when it comes to MORALITY, it's impossible, you are POWERLESS.'

What a cop out - this is frankly hilarious

 

[Interceptor]

It didn't pay off for me in relationships, career, moving forward. Every time I've focused or built my life around a woman, it's failed, period. By the way, I don't sleep with married women, and when I have a serious girlfriend, I don't play around on her either.

Lefty's post talked about reforming women and the only way they'll shape up is if men do. That's the biggest bunch of B.S. I've ever read.

Women do what they want to do when they want to do it. I've known many Christian women who were very quick to jump into bed with the first thing because, well, they had a bad day at the office, a bad hair day, or because it felt good.

This whole, "We can change the world" with our morality is just a crock.

They key isn't going on some path or trying to change the world. The key is finding yourself with your personality, your career, and yes, your woman. You pick the right career, you live how you feel comfortable (hopefully that doesn't mean hurting others), and finally the key to getting the right one isn't to try and transform her through your own morality, but by PICKING THE RIGHT WOMAN.

Most people's personalities -- their morality, especially -- is pretty imbedded by their teenage years. Yes, many people have change themselves, but many more have not. I'd say less than 1 percent of all society has made dramatic personality changes in their lives.

The key is for the man live his life full of confidence and living his life right. Trying to change the world or women through some moral path taken is frankly hilarious.

Hey, man, just saw this.
Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and your insight.
I appreciate it.
Good luck to you , brother.

 

[Interceptor]

What's funny is how some Don Juans harp on and on about the POWER you have when you *set the frame* and *lead the girl* when it comes to things like making the first move, asking for her number, planning dates

But when it comes to leading the girl in a moral capacity - it's always: 'Oh you can't lead the girl when it comes to MORALITY, it's impossible, you are POWERLESS.'

What a cop out - this is frankly hilarious

These are some good points.

The thing is that we have to factor in that a LOT of women simply dont care to be Led to more positive things. In other words, you cant make a housewife out of a ho.
These types of women are more than likely NOT in love with any man they choose to partner with. There's probably strong attraction, but not love.
That means she isnt capable at that time to be led by the man's actions, words, deeds, and Values. She cant.
So he may set a great example, but that doesnt guarantee that she WILL follow it.
Its the old adage about leading the horse to water.

We all have free will.

And if it doesnt jive with her nature , it just wont happen.

There has to be strong love from that woman to really follow that man's example. And more importantly, there has to be trust.
Those types of women will not allow themselves to trust any man.
No matter if he's a bad boy or afc or anything in between.

If she doesnt value morals, and ethical behavior, and has a scarcity mentality,she will not let herself surrender to him nor to his values.

Sure, we teach others how to treat us.

Sure, we all deserve respect and ideally, shouldnt be treated poorly as if we are beneath another.
And we want to be appreciated for who we are.

All thats well and good, but it does NOT mean that it WILL happen in the real world. At some point we must accept that others are the ones responsible for their behavior, not us.


You can have very high self esteem and self respect and dignity, and have high status, and you can still be looked upon as somehow inferior or inadequate, or not appreciated for who you are......basically, not even "SEEN" by others...
but thats life.
Many times people cant recognize in others what they dont possess.
They cant give what they dont have.


This is why the idea of choosing people who resonate with your beliefs and values is really the only choice.

And try as one might, some people will not choose one's values if they themselves have no (perhaps irrationally perceived) use for it.

 

[WestCoaster]

Women are always trying to "change" men. Frankly, I don't want to be changed and I don't want to change the women I date. I like them for who they are and for the person I met. Why would I want to change someone I was attracted to? So I can not be attracted to them?

Baloney.

You can't change them one way or another, for bad or good. Correct on the free will part by interceptor. Trader appears to be offended by the pick-up artists here. Actually, the women are using their free will to be picked up. The one's who don't want to go that route, don't get picked up. No man is forcing them to do anything.

Trader also read it wrong in setting dates and making the first moves and so forth. That's just basic tenants of society that have been with us for years. No one is changing anyone on anything there. Reminds me of a comedian I saw on the Tonight Show. He said, "In the old days, the man asked out the woman. Now that women are more liberated and free ... the men ask out the women."

People's habits and personalities are pretty set by the time they're adults. This is the mature man forum after all. If people want to whine about morality and endorse this AFCism (disguised as morality), have a fun life.

 

[WestCoaster]

I have said this many times before, but it isn't WOMEN who are romantic fools, it is MEN. As we all know, women TALK about how they want flowers and poetry and "I love you!" 20 times a day, but what happens when you give that to them? BLAM! They are REPULSED by your mere presence.

Good stuff STR8UP ... A few stories here:

In college, my extreme-AFC days, first real gf (high school barely counted), dumped me for another guy. I tried to prove to her that I could win her back. I got her a flower ... she thought I was a fool. And I was. She couldn't understand my actions ... looking back, neither can I.

Part 2: A late, great friend of mine getting dumped, trashed, treated like crap. Great artist, painted this gal a picture, wrote her what I thought was a thoughtful, decent letter to clear the air. She fires pack a 3-page letter telling my friend that he is the biggest game player she knew. He wasn't and that beyotch shouldn't have been allowed to walk on the same soil as my friend. Lesson learned ... my friend started playing the field like no tomorrow and he got a lot of women. When he succumbed back into his AFC state a few times, he got treated like dirt ... though his intentions were right, and I guess for some here, "moral."

Part 3: Another guy I knew put flowers in a guitar case and sang outside her window ... I'm not making this up. She later ran into his best friend and said, "What's with Charlie (or whatever his name was), he got all weird with his guitar and flowers the other night." Not only did she not respect the romeo with the guitar, she had the audacity to trash him to his best friend! (Now just who is "moral" here?)

Why did I, my friend, and the other dude go down this sorry a$$ path? Because of AFC programming. There was no sosuave.com back then, heck, no internet.

So for those who try to drill this b.s. into my head, pleeeeeeease.

 

[guru1000]

This is why the idea of choosing people who resonate with your beliefs and values is really the only choice.

And try as one might, some people will not choose one's values if they themselves have no (perhaps irrationally perceived) use for it.

Alas!

YOU attract what YOU represent.

When one is in a constant state of hypocrisy (Desiring what he does not represent), he will be surrounded by inflexible women.

Compatibility is the mother of flexibility. As a result, men who stand for nothing find exactly that , nothing (worthwhile). It is foolish for a man to believe a partner should possess the qualities that he himself cannot fathom.

 

[LeftyLoosey]

I love how my OP has magically been translated into "you should be an AFC."

This is like some kind of surreal telephone game.

 

[LeftyLoosey]

I'm just gonna go ahead and reply to my own thread, almost exactly a year to the day later.

I find it amazing how every time I think I finally understand what it is to be AFC, and think that I'm no longer such a man, I come out and say or do something so AFC that it's hard to believe I've made any progress at all.

I understand now why a lot of you have gone off to another forum. People like me are doing a grave disservice to those who are trying to become DJs.

Thank you Rollo, WestCoaster, Str8up, and the others; you're on the ball.

To Iqqi, VU, Interceptor, and those of you who supported me, I appreciate it, but I'm way off base with my OP and follow-up posts. I'm not going to get into the details; I think this thread covers it.