betheman said:
couple of good posts from this guy,^^ he gets it in my view!
seems to be a two pronged value system in my experience. 1, the caddishnes, the confidence, the arrogance, as well as 'the dark triad traits'...these are the traits that get the pu$$y and get it wet. this is the short term value, days weeks months maybe. The initial attraction
2, The values expoused previously, the real core values of a man, they get the wifey material (if such a thing genuinely exists as the majority of all women if not all of them, remain subject to my first point. )
now and again, a guy will possess both, I guess that is the ultimate aim of many on here but can you genuinely marry the two successfully? I dont think so because the two value systems are not congruent with each other, ther will always be conflict within the guy and this will have to be handled skillfully. you will have to ive the appearance of 1 while living the life of 2 in the longterm, that isnt something many men are in the position to do or can handle.
Yes, you are right in that last part. Many guys are not in a position to ride these two tracks. A 40 hours work week in an office or grinding it out on the shop floor or whatever, takes a lot out of a guy. Gaming after that can be a chore.
I got a great schedule (two days in the office; 4 months off a year) and a decent income. Plus, my profession allows me to exercise my mind, learn, write, travel at times, etc. That also leaves plenty of play time.
Still, even when women know all of this about me, my job and free time doesn't seem to do much for them. These are "facts" and the most they respond to in these regards is a bit of envy, but not with tingles.
I have badboy traits (always been a bit rebellious, somewhat different and unconventional) but I also have good guy traits, which means I bounce between demonstrations of alpha and beta (I've beta backslided badly a few times in relationships).
But when pursuing a woman, it's clear that only my badboy/alpha traits are of any help. Women simply do not care for your education, talents, smarts, etc. when it comes to meeting them in the sexual market place. It is how your actions and words stimulate their minds on an emotional level.
They respond to best: fun, intrigue, confidence, boldness, devil-may-care attitude, sexuality, and so on.
And you got to get them turned on first if they are ever going to consider you boyfriend material.
If I'm just out to hit-it-and-quit-it, I usually do best. I'm funny, charming, and get the pull when I get her hooked. When I'm not trying to date her but trying to bang her, I am usually more successful.
If I meet a girl--especially via social circle--and I start to really like her, I find I often mess up.... I play up my "good side" and treat her like an equal, talk to her about her interests and life, subtly reveal my depth, and though I can still joke, I often make the mistake of trying to show her what a "great catch" I am. Which I am.... but that approach if FAR FAR less successful.
When women accuse manosphere/game types of guys as being shallow, sexist, and manipulative, it is like they can hardly take the time to listen to men's reports of what has worked and hasn't. It is not like we are making this stuff up.
Worse yet, and this is when women put their fingers in their ears and say "I'm not listening", is the fact that we report to them that there are plenty of guys they pass on that fit their exact stated criteria of what they want in a man. And we say, "No, that's what you say but not what you do." It hardly can register. The Hamster deflects it straight away from their neo-cortex. The idea is never processed.
Now, I'm not bitter about all of this and have learned to understand it better over time. But I am frustrated at times.
The reason is that though I understand what turns a woman on, a man's SUBSTANTIVE qualities carry NO PURCHASE. Now, I didn't do all my career/interest/talents/hobbies stuff for women. I did it for me. But, one would think that such things carry SOME value for women you meet.
That just does not seem to be the case.
Two cases in point: Last woman I dated for any length of time (2 month) dumped me when I beta-backslided. Her? Former meth addict (clean 8 months), lost custody of her kids, had to move out of state, and lived in a crappy apartment. Somehow, me being nice, stable, caring, etc. turned her off (first date was fun, exciting, etc. and great sex). Another woman I know is similar: hot, but lost custody of her kids, deadend waitress job, heavy drinker, criminal record. When on a date with her, got her turned on, and that evening ended well because I wasn't trying to girlfriend her up. Later, when I thought maybe she had some traits I enjoyed being around and treated her like something more than a SNL, her interest evaporated.
Two women with TONS of baggage meet a guy who's fit, established, fun on a date, and treats them kind is NOT GOOD ENOUGH once he stops being a cad and tries to reveal more of his good side. Really? That's where modern American women are at....at least more than just a few.
So, even if I get her turned on and bed her and even date her, my substanative value characteristics BRING NO ADDITIONAL ATTRACTION on her part. Today's woman is all about herself being stimulated and catered to in the right way by the right guy at the right time.
And then they act as if THE PROBLEM IS US.
I'll just leave this as my addendum as why if the question is value and what is real versus perceived value and if we are asking this question in relation to attracting women, we simply must stop making up lists and criteria of value based on what MEN think it is. It not that we must cater to women, but if the goal of this conversation is getting women, then we must not deceive ourselves into believe what we value is what they do. It isn't.
