War and Youth

[Phoenix_of_the_ashes]

First off, Id like to have an open yet civilized conversation, I know that this topic will get locked otherwise.

I know that this thread could dab into politics, but Id like to consider it more sociological because I really dont want to discuss about policies themselves, but about views.

Id really like to know, what inspires young american men to join the armed forces these days. I know that statistics tell another story but I keep seeing more and more people on these and other forums who seem blindly devoted to joining the army.

Always with the same punchlines: "I wanna protect the country!", "Look at what Im sacrificing for all of you!!", "I will serve America!!". Arguing with these people will almost always get you labeled a "Liberal", whatever that means.
I dont seem to understand what that word means in America these days, but here in Europe we learn about liberalism in history class and a liberal is somebody who stood up for democracie and supported the fall of the monarchies, so I guess Ill take that as a compliment.

My motive for this thread is simple curiousity, Id like to know why people in America are many times largely military oriented while in Europe this is mostly not the case. I base that assumption on experience as I have lived in the US for 9 years of my life and still have a strong connection with the country, in fact my parents are living there right now.

My opinion is the following, the Europeans have witnessed two worldwars on their soil, in their citys and even inside their houses, almost every family lost somebody during this time. The wars have greatly influenced our culture and literature, infact, such famous examples as "All quiet on the western front" by Erich Maria Remarck( who served in WW1) also starts out with young schoolboys who go from school to war. in this war entire schoolclasses were rotted out.

I also really think, that young men have better stuff to do than go to some screwed up country to get shot at. You want to serve your country? Why dont you get a good education to help scientific progress in your country? Why dont you start a buisness to help the economy? I think these are way more produtive than going to war.

Im really curious about responses, like I said, keep it productive and friendly please.

By the way, I got inspired to make this thread by this thread: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85704&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

 

[Duke]

Well, since I'm not in the military nor are any of my immediate family, I may not be the most qualified person to speak on this, but the topic intrigues me nonetheless.

I have two answers. Hollywood and marketing.

We have so many movies glorifying warfare... Saving Private Ryan, The Thin Red Line, Blackhawk Down, Top Gun, etc etc. Now while the movie themes often don't directly glorify the warfare and instead focus on heroism, brotherhood, and the like, the subtextual messages relayed are that flying F-14 tomcats is cool and exhillarating. Taking down Nazis will give you importance and esteem.

Likewise, America aggressively markets all branches of the US military. They fire off commercials telling you that if you join them, you will 'find yourself' and 'be all that you can be' and "fulfill your potential." "An army of one." It's all led by IDEALS and rhetoric, because quite frankly the reality isn't pretty at all.

Not to mention the numerous videogames based on navy seals, special forces, delta force, and the U.S. Army's own internally funded FREE downloaded online first-person-shooter, America's Army.

Military is marketed as a once in a life-time opportunity to inject EXCITEMENT into your life and to stand out from the crowd. There's a new commercial, I believe for the US army, where one of the soldiers is on leave. His buddies back at home ask him if he's been jumping out of airplanes and firing guns. The soldier says "No, I work with computers." And they are like, "Couldn't you have done that here?" Then the commercial cuts to a montage of the soldier relaying coordinates via headset in a fast-paced environment with heavy-metal blaring in the background. Then the commercial cuts back to the soldier with his buddies, and he says "Not really."

So there is a strong appeal to indvidualism, which is a core American value. One would think individualism is a universal value, but in some Asian countries it is frowned upon.

Also, the videogames and movies market it as FUN, which is another American value.

So getting shot at and worrying about running over mines helps you find yourself, is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, is individualistic, and fun.

Or so the US military would have you believe.

Fact is, if they marketed what REALLY GOES ON, they would get very few recruits. From accounts I've read or heard, military is not fun or glamorous.

But hey, I could be wrong. Maybe it's like just like a videogame, but with no continues! LOL

 

[quest]

I have only breifly looked into it. But I'm almost finished a degree, and the australian forces army/navy/airforce offer positions to those with degrees.

I'd be starting at around about $45K tax free. compared to the $30k with tax i'll probably earn somewhere else.

I'd have stability -assuming i stay alive- + if i do 10? years i'd get pension for my whole life..

+ it'd look great on a resume.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Both of my cousins are in the US Army. One finished a tour of Falleujah in one piece.

Several factors go into the decision, but being only 18 and wanting to get away from one's small town and parents are one reason. There are hardly any decent jobs available for someone with just a high school diploma. Enlisting is one way for a poor person to get a job.

 

[diplomatic_lies]

There's nothing wrong with joining the army for a bit of excitement or patriotism. You get good pay, make a lot of friends, and for many people, its better than sitting in a stuffy office cubicle droning through paperwork.

Also, not everyone who joins the army is some gung-ho psychopath. A lot of people work in high-education sectors, such as aerospace engineering, computer science, etc. Good pay and good benefits, plus you're doing something useful for society (as opposed to getting drunk and smoking pot ).


PS. Europe isn't as anti-war as you think. Many European countries have conscription, so you don't exactly get to choose whether you want to be in the army or not.

 

[MetalFortress]

"and a liberal is somebody who stood up for democracie and supported the fall of the monarchies, so I guess Ill take that as a compliment."

Wouldn't that make George W Bush a liberal, then?

Americans are very patriotic, and it isn't just the poor ones who go to war. My friend knows a real estate millionaire who drives a Ferrari who is in the military - which he doesn't need to do, obviously, but he does it because he chooses to fight for his country. Another rich soldier came to my dealership and traded a Dodge Viper for a GMC Yukon Denali sometime back.

 

[Phoenix_of_the_ashes]

its better than sitting in a stuffy office cubicle droning through paperwork.

So is that the only alternative?

Europe isn't as anti-war as you think. Many European countries have conscription, so you don't exactly get to choose whether you want to be in the army or not.

Could you name me a european country with consription?

Wouldn't that make George W Bush a liberal, then?

No, how did he make better your country? Quite the opposite actually, his administration enlarged the possibility to use surveilance on the people and hes spending lots of money sending young people to war.

Americans are very patriotic, and it isn't just the poor ones who go to war. My friend knows a real estate millionaire who drives a Ferrari who is in the military - which he doesn't need to do, obviously, but he does it because he chooses to fight for his country. Another rich soldier came to my dealership and traded a Dodge Viper for a GMC Yukon Denali sometime back.

There are always exceptions, Im guessing however that the majority of soldiers arent exactly rich, probably quite the opposite actually.

 

[C00L]

i think for young guys they seem to have 3 choices, join the workforce, join the military or go to college.

So whatever suits their current situation best is usually what they choose.

Also, i think joining the military during times of war is the most idiotic thing a person can do. unless of course that war is taking place on your countrys soil.

 

[Double]

maybe because they want to prevent getting as pathetic as countries as germany,sweden,france and so on.....back then these countries were great conquerers, of course they did unfair and bad stuff but at least they werent pussified weak countries ruled by foreigners as today......maybe some people want to be proud warriors and fight for their people and not being bored to death in an unnatural job. i agree with you that it is better to start a business, be a scientist etc....but i can understand these people....why do i have to live in this ****ing century it could be every other

 

[Phoenix_of_the_ashes]

Originally posted by Double
maybe because they want to prevent getting as pathetic as countries as germany,sweden,france and so on.....back then these countries were great conquerers, of course they did unfair and bad stuff but at least they werent pussified weak countries ruled by foreigners as today......maybe some people want to be proud warriors and fight for their people and not being bored to death in an unnatural job. i agree with you that it is better to start a business, be a scientist etc....but i can understand these people....why do i have to live in this ****ing century it could be every other

Id like to use your post to demonstrate the exact thing Im interested about.

Define "pathetic" for countrys and how are they "ruled" by foreigners? Its democracy, nobody rules anybody.

So being a soldier is natural? Running around in body armor with automatic weapons and tanks while satellites check your position is natural?

Oh and yeah, America would have been in big trouble without having invaded Iraq.

 

[Joe The Homophobe]

Many decided to join the military for other reasons you haven't mentioned such as the training. Young skinny slackers go into the military and the next time you see them they are big, buff, serious men, no longer kids. The military turns boys into men, it straightens up slackers. If there were no war I would have already joined and the training is one of the reasons.

 

[DrMetallica]

can you name me a european country with conscription?

Germany. Russia. Austria. Greece. Belarus. Croatia. Cyprus. Denmark. Finland. Norway. Poland. Romania. Sweden. Switzerland. Ukraine. Bulgaria. Slovakia. Moldovia. Serbia and Montenegro. Latvia. Lithuania. Estonia.

Also some European countries only recently demolished conscription, such as:

Belguim, early 90s
Czech Republic, 2004
France, 1996
Hungary, 2004
Italy, 2005
The Netherlands, mid 90s
Portugal, 2004
Slovenia, 2003


I was quite into your article, (especially the "there are many more productive ways to improve your nation without going into the army, such as creating a business and improving the economy"), although I know your "name me a european country with conscription" was bullsh!t because I knew for sure that Germany and Russia had conscription. After digging up a little research I found most of Europe has or had conscription until very recently. This totally ruins your credibility and arguement, dude. America has not had conscription since the early 70s.

 

[Double]

Originally posted by Phoenix_of_the_ashes
Id like to use your post to demonstrate the exact thing Im interested about.

Define "pathetic" for countrys and how are they "ruled" by foreigners? Its democracy, nobody rules anybody.

So being a soldier is natural? Running around in body armor with automatic weapons and tanks while satellites check your position is natural?

Oh and yeah, America would have been in big trouble without having invaded Iraq.

pathetic is when the people that are here for centuries are looked down on, when there is a large percentage of people who say germany sucks and still take the money of the ****ing germans. when have to fear foreigns gangs in your own country and nothing is done against it because people are afraid of being perceived as racists etc......thats what i call pathetic but i dont wanna get too political.

no todays wars are not natural and i dont wanna join the army. but i would like to be a warrior in the ancient times fighting with steel weapons and defending my people, it is something totally different from fighting with automatic weapons and for economics.

so i dont wanna be a soldier in these times....but i understand it when some people wanna have something exciting and meaningful...there is not much left for a man......but as i already said i myself dont want to join the army so i hope others will talk about more details.

 

[Phoenix_of_the_ashes]

fear foreigns gangs in your own country and nothing is done against it because people are afraid of being perceived as racists

I understand this is a huge problem, trust me I know exactly what you mean. I also think that all nations have problems like this.

Anyway, who says Germany sucks or looks down on German people? Ive been to many places on this earth and I actually witnessed quite the opposite.

 

[naoi deag se deag]

My personal belief is that the military in America is very popular because nationalist sentiment is very high here and always has been. It rarely matters how leftist or rightist you are; in support of the military, most people couldn't like it more. I think this is one of nationalism's greatest victories, that one can hate the administration so much and still love the military that does its bidding, because the military stands for America's common virtues and is a major part of our shared history. To me, the military is a political tool and its greatest asset is nationalism. I respect everyone in the military for their personal virtues and for wholeheartedly believing in something; it's what they believe in that I sometimes question.

Regarding the differences between Europe and America:

Robert Kagan and Francis Fukuyama are jointly probably the two primary theorists for understanding the difference between Europe and America re: the military.

Fukuyama postulated that with the fall of communism, the world had experienced a sort of "end of history", where the final real challenger to democratic capitalism had died. To him, history is a series of conflicts between different belief systems, and these are now mostly over in a global system.

Kagan, incidentally one of the co-directors of the neoconservative foreign policy think tank Project for a New American Century, ran with this idea and wrote that Europe has entered this posthistorical phase where might doesn't matter and democratic and equalitarian principles rule the day.

To all our dismay, the rest of the world hasn't: terrorism, rogue states and instability in the wake of the Cold War substantiate this. So America, Kagan argues, must be the world policeman to defend Europe from those historical elements that seek to do her harm. He argues that there will be tension between the belief systems of Europe and America for a long while due to this history-v-posthistory difference.

***If only I put this much effort into my schoolwork...

 

[Vincent]

This was a bad idea.

 

[diablo]

Originally posted by Vincent
This was a bad idea.