Uncomfortable Situation with the G/F of a Friend

[slaog]

Disagree. My definition of a "quality woman" excludes the behavior that your friend's 'girlfriend' showed toward you.

Blatant disrespect of him and totally coldness towards his feelings would be grounds for dismissal.
If I were him I would have rolled her out of the car at the nearest taxi stand and then lost her number.

I have dated numerous woman and had many LTRs but never had a woman pull that shyte with another guy in front of me. ( perhaps they knew that somehow it was verboten with me)

I think that there were TWO factors at work in her behavior. Firstly her IL in her B/f is probably only moderate at best, and secondly she is acting as if she had no obligation to consider her boy friends feelings - It is just more of the " I am woman and I can do as I please" syndrome.

I agree.


It's not like everybody doesn't know whats happening when girls flirt with other men infront of their BFs. Theres usually alot of tension around when it happens which only gets worse if the BF doesn't do anything about it. She must have known that the BF knew what she was doing. She also knew that he'd do nothing about it and there must have been low IL there.


She might have had a nice personality on the outside but she doesn't sound like a nice person at all.

 

[Trader]

OP

The way I read it - you are trying to keep your distance from the girl because the guy is a valuable business connection - smart move - it will pay off in the long run

 

[mikeraw]

I'm actually disappointed that STR8UP wasn't more proactive in diffusing this situation. Given his status on this site and his posting frequency, I think it was a missed learning opportunity for everyone that visits these forums. Not that he's under any obligation to be a teacher... just saying.

And as for that chick's BF, he sounds like a total chump. Poor guy, but what can you do? Even if you call her out on it you're still reacting, so you're automatically losing points. The only way to avoid this is to make keep her IL level very high.

 

[SXS]

I've been in this situation many times, and from both sides. There are many men I am attracted to... being in a relationship is not going to prevent me from being attracted to other persons... that's like trying to stop the Earth's revolutions... it's just not going to happen. That being said, when it occurs, I am very self-aware and able to keep myself in check. Being so blatantly disrespectful to your SO makes you BOTH look like the relationship doesn't mean anything.

Now, I know people who have been together a million years, and often flirt with others of the opposite sex, but they are secure in their relationships, and the flirtation is 'for amusement purposes only'. Often they both partake, and there is an enjoyable openness about them.

I don't know this woman, (and I really don't like to judge), but it seems as though she walks all over her SO. Obviously he isn't confrontational, at least within the moment and is tolerant of her behavior in the very least.

I've also been in his shoes before, and I know how uncomfortable and disheartening it is... but I didn't stick around to relive that experience over and over. (After voicing my concerns and essentially being blown off, I dismissed the relationship and went about my life).

Just curious... have you talked to your male acquaintance about his girlfriend's behavior? It sounds like she was the only person who didn't feel awkward that night.

You completed missed the point. Having atraction for another person is in no way an excuse for such behavior.
And you seem to be sugesting that he confronts the dude with the problem ? What he is going to say to him ? "Hey, have you noticed that your girlfriend is all over me ? Isnt that cool ?"

 

[Tazman]

I actually had a close friend's GF start rubbing my arm while we were sitting down eating at a restaurant, right in front of him.

He called her out on it and she told him she was only doing it because I didn't have any hair on my arms, as if she's never felt a hairless arm before.........

I just sat there saying to myself "what the f-ck is she doing?!?!". I was genuinely shocked that she did it so blatantly.

In the end it doesn't matter though, she knows she's his only source of p-ssy and she can do things like that.

 

[Tazman]

On another note, I think some of my friends resent me sometimes because of situations involving women they're either with or trying to be with having feelings for me.

It's not something I try to do, it just happens, and I can see it in their behavior towards me, but all I can do is brush it off. I never pursued any of them so they can't hold that against me.

Jealousy, especially involving sexual relationships can develop into a very serious problem. I know guys that go through great pains to keep their GFs away from other guys, unless it's an unavoidable situation. Little do they realize that by doing that, they're pushing them further away.

 

[STR8UP]

Okay - in this case, is the BF supposed to call her on it, or be cool and ignore the shyt test? Does this qualify as a shyt test, or is it blatant disrespect?

Or should he do neither and take it as a sign (a real sign, not a metaphysical one) that she's not quality - and start working on his exit plan?

It wasn't a sh!t test at all, and it wasn't intentional. This could happen to any one of us if we are with a woman who doesn't see enough value in us and happens to meet a stranger that tickles her fancy. Granted, another woman might have been able to *control* her reactions a bit better, but aside from the embarrassment it might have caused him, she technically didn't do anything "wrong".

It has nothing to do with whether or not she is "quality". If a chick isn't into YOU specifically, that isn't a character flaw, regarless of what your ego would like for you to believe. I suppose the way she reacted could be considered disrespectful, but I honestly don't think she was even aware of how she was behaving.

From my perspective it was obvious that if he had any interest in her, the wise move would be to keep his eyes open and if it happens again, move on. The only thing he needs to be concerned about is that it's a sign that his value isn't high enough. If it were, she wouldn't have even noticed me.

 

[SXS]

From my perspective it was obvious that if he had any interest in her, the wise move would be to keep his eyes open and if it happens again, move on. The only thing he needs to be concerned about is that it's a sign that his value isn't high enough. If it were, she wouldn't have even noticed me.

So what you are saying that is HIS fault for her bad behaviour ?

 

[STR8UP]

So what you are saying that is HIS fault for her bad behaviour ?

You aren't getting it dude. She wasn't "behaving badly".

There was no "fault" here. Like it or not, right or wrong, it has always been and always will be a man's responsibility to create and maintain attraction. When you understand the concept of value and how important it is in the mating game it's easy to see that unless your value is sky high with a particular woman, the chances of her scouting the horizon for a man of higher value are pretty damned good.

I am by no means comparing myself to a famous actor or pro athlete, but if you were out with your girl and her favorite heartthob movie star walked in the room and chatted her up, I wouldn't expect her to turn her nose up at him, if you know what I mean.

It's how women are wired. Get used to it.

 

[ketostix]

I don't know, personally whenever a girl with a BF or significant other hits on or acts interested in me especially in front of him I never take her too serious or consider her attraction genuine. I think that when a woman with someone is really looking to branch swing or even just really looking to hook up with another guy, she is a little subtle about it. I don't take overt flirting from a girl in front of her BF that seriously. She's probably sh!t testing and disrespecting her guy. I think if she was seriously attracted to another guy and had any serious intentions with the other guy, she would act more duplicit than blatantly tipping her man off. I'm not saying that is the case here Str8up, but that's how I usually see it.

 

[jophil28]

You aren't getting it dude. She wasn't "behaving badly".

There was no "fault" here. Like it or not, right or wrong, it has always been and always will be a man's responsibility to create and maintain attraction. When you understand the concept of value and how important it is in the mating game it's easy to see that unless your value is sky high with a particular woman, the chances of her scouting the horizon for a man of higher value are pretty damned good.

I am by no means comparing myself to a famous actor or pro athlete, but if you were out with your girl and her favorite heartthob movie star walked in the room and chatted her up, I wouldn't expect her to turn her nose up at him, if you know what I mean.

It's how women are wired. Get used to it.

Indeed, she was behaving badly. Why ? Because if the events happened as you reported, then she was demonstrating significant disrespect towards her B/f by turning to you repeatedly for attention and flirty entertainment..In fact so much so, that you felt uncomfortable enough to post here about it. You may not want to condemn her or hold her 'at fault' in so many words but the tone and content of your post was disapproving and critical of her.


This sort of cr*p has never happened to me in 30 years of dating and numerous LTRs because of some factors in those relationships which I do not fully understand ( the only exception to this was the trashy behavior of a Cluster B nutcase back in 2006).
I am CERTAIN that my standard selection criteria filtered out the losers and the cruisers and the users. Sure, I have had a few random intoxicated women, who were married to chumps, flirt with me over the years, but I have never had to deal with MY girls doing that shyte.
Therefore ,my experience tells me that women are NOT 'wired' to do any such thing any more that I am 'wired' to cheat rob and steal to satify my supposed male imperatives.

The behavior that you described by her is opportunistic attention seeking by a low class woman who has NO clue about acceptable behavior in a relationship and no sense of her loyalty obligations to her guy.

 

[STR8UP]

The behavior that you described by her is opportunistic attention seeking by a low class woman who has NO clue about acceptable behavior in a relationship and no sense of her loyalty obligations to her guy.

Still. not. getting. it.

The was no "clue" to be had. There was no "attention seeking". She was reacting to a primal instinct that attracted her to someone. Nothing more, nothing less. She had a bubbly, sweet, and engaging personality. Her dissing him was 100% subconscious. She had no idea she was being rude. Her interest in her b/f was low enough to allow this to happen, which is the issue that he really needs to address.

I was there. I saw everything that went down and was conscious to the entire interaction. Plain and simple, this woman had stars in her eyes.

The second I started talking about Amsterdam and she saw that we had things in common, she started looking at me like I might be the soulmate she had been waiting for all of her life. The only thing that will keep a woman from potentially thinking she has found her soulmate is if she feels like she already HAS found her soulmate. Her geeky b/f wasn't it. Her eyes were open, and the little hamster wheels in her head started turning when she started talking to a worldly stranger from out of town who just so happened to like the same kinds of music, foods, travel, etc that she does.

You guys have to get out of your head the idea that women have some sort of obligation or duty to remain loyal and faithful to you regardless of the situation. Women don't operate in that world. Go read a few pages of Roissy's blog and understand how things really work.

 

[horaholic]

Just because she doesnt realize it, doesnt mean its not wrong. The fact that she doesnt have a clue, says that she is inconsiderate of other peoples feelings, which on my book, is low quality. She is causing stress on someone she is supposed to give a shyt about. Its basic human decency, plain and simple. She's not wrong for having feelings of attraction, but she is wrong for expressing them right in front of her BF's face, putting him in a lose-lose situation. If he keeps his mouth shut, he's a pvssy. If he calls her out on it, he's a jealous controlling prick. The only thing he can do is walk away

 

[ketostix]

Hey Str8up, I don't doubt she was attracted and she was definitely disrespecting her BF. It's just it seems to me girls will do things in certain scenarios where they feel free to express attraction when they know there's little chance of having to act on it. So their intentions are not genuine. I know it makes no sense for them to do this, but do you think it's possible that if her BF wasn't there she might have acting more subtle because she would be in a position to act on it? I just have a hard time believing that she wasn't cognizant that she was disrespecting her BF and wasn't sh!t testing him to some degree.

 

[STR8UP]

To be perfectly honest, I spent all of three hours with this chick, so I really don't know what she's all about. That said, from where I was standing, she wasn't "flirting" with me per se, she was just getting to know me and found "attractive qualities" in me as she found out more.

Was she "wrong" for handling it the way she did? Well, I would say that if it did indeed cause him embarrassment then yea, she should have been more conscious of her reactions.

So from a social standpoint I suppose she should have tried to be more aware of what was going on. From the evolutionary psychology standpoint though, she was simply acting upon her natural desires to seek out a higher value male.

I just have to laugh at guys who are still stuck with this flawed notion that any woman who so much as looks at another dude when she is with you is automatically gutter trash. Sorry for the blow to the ego boys, but you aren't THAT important. You are expendable. Your value relative to hers is all that really matters. If your value decreases enough, your woman will be looking to replace you, point blank. If you can maintain high value in her eyes, the chances of her checking out the competition are much less.

Really, when you open your eyes to the fact that the world is the way it is and not the way we want it to be, you set yourself up to be able to live without high expectations and thus less potential for disappointment. Girlfriends with wandering eyes included.

 

[ketostix]

she wasn't "flirting" with me per se, she was just getting to know me and found "attractive qualities" in me as she found out more.

Was she "wrong" for handling it the way she did? Well, I would say that if it did indeed cause him embarrassment then yea, she should have been more conscious of her reactions.

So from a social standpoint I suppose she should have tried to be more aware of what was going on. From the evolutionary psychology standpoint though, she was simply acting upon her natural desires to seek out a higher value male.

I just have to laugh at guys who are still stuck with this flawed notion that any woman who so much as looks at another dude when she is with you is automatically gutter trash. Sorry for the blow to the ego boys, but you aren't THAT important. You are expendable. Your value relative to hers is all that really matters. If your value decreases enough, your woman will be looking to replace you, point blank. If you can maintain high value in her eyes, the chances of her checking out the competition are much less.

Really, when you open your eyes to the fact that the world is the way it is and not the way we want it to be, you set yourself up to be able to live without high expectations and thus less potential for disappointment. Girlfriends with wandering eyes included.

I see where you are coming from better. It is human nature to be self-serving, selfish, unscrupulous, etc. You don't have to be a believer of evolutionary psychology to believe that. Heck, even the Bible is full of stories about human nature being like that.

It all goes back to why we have laws, rules and ethics. Without them we'd have chaos. People will go against their "evolutionary" drives if they are taught to or there is an incentive. Some women have a better nature than others, kind of like how different dog breeds have different temperments, and some women are taught meet certain expectations. The problem is society holds women to no standards of behavior and so we have women like we do.

 

[jophil28]

She can be blamed for what she CAN control, but that's not so black and white. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being complete indifference and ten being her begging you to fukk her, where is the line of what's appropriate crossed? Is it subjective, different for each person?

I respect the opinions jophil and Str8up, so I'm interested in their (and everyone's) feedback. I don't think you can expect someone to completely suppress his or her attraction; however, if she acts out of line, I don't think she gets a free pass because of evolution, either.

I think that we all know what is right and wrong. Even the 'relativists' and the poor lost souls who were hoodwinked and 'trained' by post modernism in college know, deep down, what is acceptable and what is not.
The lines may have become blurred no doubt. However ,looking to evolutionary 'urges' to explain, and tacitly accept, bad behavior is self defeating for men within the context of this debate.
Try and pull that "nature made me do it " argument with a judge next time you are looking at some jail time for stealing.

The 'reasons' for women's degenerated behavior are many and varied. We could debate them until the cows come home. It is an academic argument .
What counts is how we , as men, deal with this behavior. We may not be able to change collective woman and her behavior in our life time, but we CAN control our individual reactions and responses.
Surely the first requirement is to define a clear set of criteria.
And then comes enforcement and the willingness to act if we encounter a woman acting badly. Sanctions and penalties need to be decided ( in our minds) beforehand and then we are in a much better position to react to poor behavior in ways that serve us, and do not further feed into her manipulations.

Previous generations of men did not have to do this work. We do, and we better get started.

 

[STR8UP]

We've got a good debate going, here, and it's a fundamental question that is often at the base of all of the "interest level" related threads.

I suppose it boils down to whether we can be held responsible for the reactions of our reptilian minds. To what extent are we expected to temper our programmed impulses with our sense of right and wrong? If the woman in question had acted completely stoic, or even cold, toward Str8Up, she still might have found him attractive and interesting under the surface. Is she to be blamed for what she can't control?

She can be blamed for what she CAN control, but that's not so black and white. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being complete indifference and ten being her begging you to fukk her, where is the line of what's appropriate crossed? Is it subjective, different for each person?

I respect the opinions jophil and Str8up, so I'm interested in their (and everyone's) feedback. I don't think you can expect someone to completely suppress his or her attraction; however, if she acts out of line, I don't think she gets a free pass because of evolution, either.

This is exactly why I brought this up in the first place. You can say that a woman can't control how she feels and thus really didn't do anything wrong here. I mean, the guy in question isn't the epitome of "alpha" by any stretch of the word. Are women supposed to force themselves to not be attracted to a male that is higher up on the food chain when they are in a relationship?

I don't think anyone believes that a woman can choose who she is attracted to or when she is attracted to someone, but at the same time she CAN temper her desires. The question is, when is the line crossed?

Lets say you are dating a chick just to pass the time. Maybe you have other plates, and this one is low on the totem pole for whatever reason. A friend of hers comes into town to visit and the three of you go out for the night. Turns out her friend is drop dead gorgeous (high value for a woman), smart, witty, charming, basically everything you could ever want in a woman.

She starts to talk about subjects that you share a common interest in, and before you know it, you are engrossed in conversation with a chick you would love to get to know better. Just so happens that your low grade plate is tagging along.

Conversation in and of itself is innocent and socially expected. You can't just ignore her. So you find yourself getting along REALLY well. You have incredible rapport. You just "click".

You start asking more questions about her because you are genuinely interested in her as a person. As you become more and more attracted to her, your body language begins to shift toward her subconsciously. You can't help it....it just happens. This chick makes your plate kind of fade into the background.

Now, of course the POLITE thing to do would be to remain cognizant of your behavior and make sure you aren't excluding the plate. But that feels forced and unnatural. All you want to do is soak in this wonderful specimen of femininity.

Does this make you a "low quality" guy?

Society tries to impose a lot of rules on us, but when it comes down to it, nature trumps all. If a woman (or a man for that matter, but especially a woman) feels strong attraction to a member of the opposite sex, it's going to be difficult to suppress and hide it.

It "just happens".

 

[STR8UP]

Try and pull that "nature made me do it " argument with a judge next time you are looking at some jail time for stealing.

The fatal flaw in your way of thinking lies in the assessment of risk vs. reward and the assumption that the consequences of making poor decisions in the mating game are trivial.

When you argue morals, you need to separate those that are related to the mating game from everything else. Of course it would be convenient to lump everything together, but it doesn't work that way because:

a) The stakes of the mating game are too high

and

b) The risk vs. reward ratio is skewed

In other words, there is no judge and jury that condemns you to life in prison for cheating. What are the consequences to a woman disrespecting a low grade mating prospect for one of perceived higher value? Well, if she is married with children it's one thing, but if she is casually dating the guy, the risk of losing a "loser" isn't much of a risk at all. Add in the fact that the loser has likely demonstrated his desperation by allowing such "disrespectful" behavior (every time she craps in him he comes back for more) and you have a low risk/ high potential reward situation.

Rules and ethics don't hold much water in this game as far as women are concerned....sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[slaog]

The fatal flaw in your way of thinking lies in the assessment of risk vs. reward and the assumption that the consequences of making poor decisions in the mating game are trivial.

When you argue morals, you need to separate those that are related to the mating game from everything else. Of course it would be convenient to lump everything together, but it doesn't work that way because:

a) The stakes of the mating game are too high

and

b) The risk vs. reward ratio is skewed

In other words, there is no judge and jury that condemns you to life in prison for cheating. What are the consequences to a woman disrespecting a low grade mating prospect for one of perceived higher value? Well, if she is married with children it's one thing, but if she is casually dating the guy, the risk of losing a "loser" isn't much of a risk at all. Add in the fact that the loser has likely demonstrated his desperation by allowing such "disrespectful" behavior (every time she craps in him he comes back for more) and you have a low risk/ high potential reward situation.

Rules and ethics don't hold much water in this game as far as women are concerned....sorry to burst your bubble.

Quality women will behave with some class even if they've nothing to lose. Low quality women are the ones who'll most likely use excuses and be less likely to be able to control themselves in certain situations. Anybody with low standards will use excuses for bad behaviour.


So there are consequences for the woman. The consequences are that she has lowered her value etc and has lowered her standards of behaviour (or showed her true colours). Now you might think that these are little concequences but if she has lowered her value and standards she'll attract similar low value men.


In that situation ask yourself would the higher value male want the woman who is behaving like she is? Maybe to fvck but thats all. She's not worth getting into a long term relationship with. Thats where the real consequences are.