The war on drug results are in.. it's a massacre

[Bible_Belt]

I've definitely seen it lead to other more harmful drugs. I've also seen it used to stave off using more harmful drugs. And also seen that not last long.

fwiw, I have seen it last. If pot is a gateway to harder drugs, it can also be a gateway from harder drugs. A friend of mine was a hardcore meth addict for ten years. He shot up every day. He never had a job and was in and out of jail. There's not supposed to be a cure for an addiction that bad. But he moved across the country to where he didn't know anyone to buy meth from, and the only thing he could get was good weed. It helped him fight the physical and psychological withdrawal from the meth.

Today, he still smokes pot daily; you might say he's traded one addiction for another. But the difference in his life is night and day. Suddenly, he can hold a real job, maintain healthy relationships with his children and family, and stay out of prison. In comparison, all of his old meth buddies are dead or in jail. He has moved back to his hometown and still not relapsed.

 

[backbreaker]

fwiw, I have seen it last. If pot is a gateway to harder drugs, it can also be a gateway from harder drugs. A friend of mine was a hardcore meth addict for ten years. He shot up every day. He never had a job and was in and out of jail. There's not supposed to be a cure for an addiction that bad. But he moved across the country to where he didn't know anyone to buy meth from, and the only thing he could get was good weed. It helped him fight the physical and psychological withdrawal from the meth.

Today, he still smokes pot daily; you might say he's traded one addiction for another. But the difference in his life is night and day. Suddenly, he can hold a real job, maintain healthy relationships with his children and family, and stay out of prison. In comparison, all of his old meth buddies are dead or in jail. He has moved back to his hometown and still not relapsed.

and that is the truth about the war on drugs. they don't approach drug addiction with realistc options.

i never liked weed and it isn't my thing but i know plenty people where weed has saved their lives. but if you are on probation you go right back to jail if you get caught smoking weed even though you did it other than doing what your regular drug of choice was. stupid and pointless.

 

[Ninja Dude]

@iqqi you should try some weed. It will make you understand yourself in ways you never could. Used in moderation it's an excellent creativity booster (if you can get your lazy ass off the sofa that is) FWIW I say this as someone who just gave it up because I have a weakness for it

Honestly I think everyone could benefit from a little puff of grass - even if its just once just to provide some perspective. Bill Hicks was onto something: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZqYV9KKOZQ

@Deep Dish, boy am I glad you're on my side of the debate.

 

[Dust 2 Dust]

I guess I just answered my own question though - without drug laws, so many cops, lawyers, prison guards, judges and other people who are useless leeches on society would actually have to get real jobs instead of mooching off the rest of us.

Our jails would be half empty if it weren't for drug laws that put away casual users. A buddy of mine got 30 days in jail, 2 years probation, and 1,000 hours of community service for possession of 3 Somas without a prescription that he got from a friend to deal with his back pain.

 

[backbreaker]

Our jails would be half empty if it weren't for drug laws that put away casual users. A buddy of mine got 30 days in jail, 2 years probation, and 1,000 hours of community service for possession of 3 Somas without a prescription that he got from a friend to deal with his back pain.

]

I remember when I was going to meetings and in chem free and stuff, there would be a room of people and we would go around talking about our problems and i remember one day, one dude was drinking a little bit too much and his PO did not like that, and another dude had just failed a drug test for weed and had to go in front of the judge and another dude had a drug test the next day and he knew he was dirty for weed and i'm sitting here thinking. that's 3 people who are not a harm to society in any way as of right now, that are gonig to be using our tax dollars on pointless jailings. it cost 21,000 a year to house 1 immate. that's 63 thousand dollars spent on bull****.

I think all of them had jobs.. all of them were trying to do right, they just had issues with some drugs, not even hard drugs at that. i could understand to a lesser extent if you are failing drug test for meth or somejthing but weed and you have to get your PO revoked? that's some BS.

what gets me about conservitives is they will get their juices wet talking about things that actually do matter like abortion and cutting programs but have no problem in the least bit throwing ungodly amounts of money at jails and drug programs that reality hardly anyone.

the dude that had drank too much he was a friend of mine. dude, lol, had been in the "system "for like 15 years by that point. he sold drugs, went to jail for like 5 years. got out, got a real job, dirty piss, back to jail. get out, dirty piss, back to jail.

I mean, yeah you would think he would get s act to gether, but he stopped selling dope dman near 2 decades ago. he has a real job lhe just likes to smoke weed and drink. leave the man a lone for crying out loud. actually a pretty cool dude.


kol oh ****, that's note ven the best part. i almost forgot.

so the dude knew his po was going to revoke his bail, so he said f it lol, and dipped out. just disappared. he was on arknasas's most wanted one night actually. this went on for like 2 weeks. oe day they finally found him in front of a wal mart and they get out and they had the FBI there you would think the dude shot someone lol. dude failed a damn drug test and they had red dots pointed at him outside of a store with kids and **** all around.

 

[Burroughs]

Backbreaker bear in mind that the courts and law enforcement want to extract maximum tax dollars for their own benefit.

So it is in their best interests to criminalize EVERYTHING THEY CAN....

Prostitution, HGH, steroids, MJ etc..should be over the counter (it is in most countries)..but by creating scapegoats the state agencies can grow fat and have the added benefit of governing a population through fear.

Most Americans have been mentally reduced to the level of drooling infants looking to the nanny state to wipe their ass.

 

[Robert28]

http://youtu.be/7dznkTwbFLY

 

[Robert28]

http://youtu.be/30OEb5bG8PQ

 

[iqqi]

somoene has obviously not had an iced caramel macchiato yet

The funniest thing is that was my exact thought and the only thing I thought worth replying to. LOL. I'm addicted to chai lattes.

ADDICTED.
Seriously.


I agree that some of the laws are ridiculous. Prisons and jails are so overcrowded right now, if they want to use MJ as a revenue stream then just issue fines for that crap.

On another tangent, I also struggle with how to educate about drugs. Just myself and one other childhood friend of mine made it out of our upbringings as a success story and also drug free. Every single other person in my family and close friends who grew up in the same thing we grew up in are all lost causes. Just gone. And I see so many people who come from much better backgrounds who have ruined their lives with drugs. My concern is when I have children, there is no way they are going to grow up in the conditions I grew up in. Seeing what I saw and having a brain is what saved me. What will save my children? What will really make them understand? Definitely scary prospects.

 

[Deep Dish]

http://youtu.be/30OEb5bG8PQ

Robert, thank you for contributing to this discussion, but you contributed nothing. Michael Savage is full of scare-mongering hysteria.

If marijuana was as dangerous as he wants to you believe, then most assuredly by now, some forty or fifty years after the popularization during the 1960’s, the long-term effects would appear in longitudinal cohorts of the elderly population. Yet, it is not so. Factoring out tobacco dualists, people who only smoke marijuana do not have an elevated risk of lung, mouth, or neck cancers, and it doesn’t harden your arteries. You can find a list a mile long of all the diseases and disorders caused by alcohol abuse, but it’s strenuous to find anything associated with marijuana. It’s true there’s a slightly heightened population of schizophrenia, but it’s a chicken or the egg dilemma: does it cause schizophrenia or are schizophrenics self-medicating? We know schizophrenia is a naturally occurring disease, 75% of schizophrenics use marijuana, and marijuana helps treat schizophrenia, so the dialectic preponderance of the evidence weighs in favor they are self-medicating. So much for Savage’s assertion that “it produces psychosis… just look at the Hollywood establishment.”

For all the fanfare Savage made about the chemicals found in marijuana, some at higher levels than tobacco, it should be noter the average recreational stoner smokes far, far, far less often than the average cigarette smoker. He also mentioned formaldehyde but contaminants are put into weed by unscrupulous dealers and is a supportive argument for legalization so there’ll be better quality control. Once legalized, there’ll also be better controls on regulating the use of pesticides and checking for molds.

So Robert, what’s your point?

 

[runner83]

Rational scale to assess the harm of drugs (mean physical harm and mean dependence)

Interesting chart to have a look at:

Rational scale to assess the harm of drugs (mean physical harm and mean dependence)

A rational scale to assess the harm of drugs. Data source is the March 24, 2007 article: Nutt, David, Leslie A King, William Saulsbury, Colin Blakemore. "Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse" The Lancet 2007; 369:1047-1053. (PMID 17382831; doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(07)60464-4)

The data in the paper is obtained solely from questionnaire results obtained from two groups of people: the first comprised people from the UK national group of consultant psychiatrists who were on the Royal College of Psychiatrists’ register as specialists in addiction, while the second comprised of people with experience in one of the many areas of addiction, ranging from chemistry, pharmacology, and forensic science, through psychiatry and other medical specialties, including epidemiology, as well as the legal and police services; the experts are not named and were chosen by the authors.

This is a tertiary source (see Wikipedia policy on primary, secondary, tertiary sources) as it summarizes experts' opinions on the matter (which are secondary sources) without any direct references to primary sources.

 

[backbreaker]

everyone uses drugs for different reasons.


it took me some YEARS to make this connection but my phyc did it for me. i ma a classic workaholic. something i'm proud of and wont' chage. i like to work. i prided myself in the fact that i don't take off days regardless of the day. i am always working somedays more than ohters.


when i used drugs, , whatever i had to get done, whatever i was working on, F that lol.

but, nto so much the day i was using drugs. the thing about crack, when you use the amounts i used, it seriously depletes the chemical that helps you rest so you will be tired as F but can't do antyhignt but lay there. you are worn out. seriously worn out. it takes a few days to recover form a hard core crack biendge.

the day after i used i was pretty much useless loll,. my brain could not handle anything remotely difficult i woul djust sit and watch TV and play video games.

in other words, i would relax.

part of the reason i used drugs, is that, that was the only way i would make myself take a day off. beucase i could not work. so part of me , hated the drugs but part of me, longed to have some down time. it's like i would have to give myself an excuse to take a day off by using if that makes any sense. I mean i wasn't conciously doing it but on a subconscious level i was trying to find some rest. over somme time this is how my brain equated to take a day off, smoke crack. to this day I make sure that one day a week i don't do antyhing remotely difficult even if it cost me some productivity. beucase i know how i am wired. today i can take an off day without using.

 

[Robert28]

Robert, thank you for contributing to this discussion, but you contributed nothing. Michael Savage is full of scare-mongering hysteria.

If marijuana was as dangerous as he wants to you believe, then most assuredly by now, some forty or fifty years after the popularization during the 1960’s, the long-term effects would appear in longitudinal cohorts of the elderly population. Yet, it is not so. Factoring out tobacco dualists, people who only smoke marijuana do not have an elevated risk of lung, mouth, or neck cancers, and it doesn’t harden your arteries. You can find a list a mile long of all the diseases and disorders caused by alcohol abuse, but it’s strenuous to find anything associated with marijuana. It’s true there’s a slightly heightened population of schizophrenia, but it’s a chicken or the egg dilemma: does it cause schizophrenia or are schizophrenics self-medicating? We know schizophrenia is a naturally occurring disease, 75% of schizophrenics use marijuana, and marijuana helps treat schizophrenia, so the dialectic preponderance of the evidence weighs in favor they are self-medicating. So much for Savage’s assertion that “it produces psychosis… just look at the Hollywood establishment.”

For all the fanfare Savage made about the chemicals found in marijuana, some at higher levels than tobacco, it should be noter the average recreational stoner smokes far, far, far less often than the average cigarette smoker. He also mentioned formaldehyde but contaminants are put into weed by unscrupulous dealers and is a supportive argument for legalization so there’ll be better quality control. Once legalized, there’ll also be better controls on regulating the use of pesticides and checking for molds.

So Robert, what’s your point?

well thanks for that. guess you liberals really don't tolerate free speech huh? my point was a qualified expert commented on the effects of marijuana and chemicals it contains. i never once said it should be legalized or not legalized. my point was if youre foolish enough to put that stuff into your body then be my guest. so the baby boomers arent dying off by the thousands every year, you think that will make me say "hmmm well hell maybe ill start smoking weed today". if you REALLY put all your faith in the government to regulate everything for you and tell you everything is safe, then thats your perogotive. i personally dont want the government in any of my business and thinking for me or my family. you can smoke all the weed you want, i just choose not to mess with it and if i ever had kids and it was offered to them then the person that offered it to them better hope they never cross paths with me. if you want to get high in your mothers basement everyday, fine and dandy with me but dont try to convince me thats its some healthy herb we should all be smoking on a daily basis. you have your beliefs and i have mine, that was my point.

 

[Deep Dish]

People who regularly heavily smoke marijuana on a daily basis—which is relatively few people—may develop a chronic cough, phlegm, and wheezing, but the problems clear up with a sobriety break. It’s relatively easy for people to regulate their behavior if they go too far and the body of scientific literature is profoundly lacking evidence of long-term diseases. I also always find it a curious oddity why opponents always harp on the smoking aspect when there are the alternative delivery methods of vaporizers, baked goods, and tincture liquids which remove the health concerns presented by combustion. Why are vaporizers and their compadres always omitted? Perhaps the reason is simple: the health concerns are basically gone. Savage ravages on a savage rant about medical marijuana being a dangerous scam, but it’s silly when you consider vaporizers deliver pure THC and leave all the chemicals in the bud; and conversely, the carcinogens and tars are largely left behind at the kitchen counter when preparing/baking the food. Context is everything. That’s why Mr. Savage is bogus: he ignorantly omits the context.

So put down the “I guess you liberals really don't tolerate free speech huh?”

 

[Robert28]

People who regularly heavily smoke marijuana on a daily basis—which is relatively few people—may develop a chronic cough, phlegm, and wheezing, but the problems clear up with a sobriety break. It’s relatively easy for people to regulate their behavior if they go too far and the body of scientific literature is profoundly lacking evidence of long-term diseases. I also always find it a curious oddity why opponents always harp on the smoking aspect when there are the alternative delivery methods of vaporizers, baked goods, and tincture liquids which remove the health concerns presented by combustion. Why are vaporizers and their compadres always omitted? Perhaps the reason is simple: the health concerns are basically gone. Savage ravages on a savage rant about medical marijuana being a dangerous scam, but it’s silly when you consider vaporizers deliver pure THC and leave all the chemicals in the bud; and conversely, the carcinogens and tars are largely left behind at the kitchen counter when preparing/baking the food. Context is everything. That’s why Mr. Savage is bogus: he ignorantly omits the context.

So put down the “I guess you liberals really don't tolerate free speech huh?”

to be honest i don't give a rats ass if it's legalized or not. i just choose not to mess with it, i won't date a girl that does mess with it, if my kids ever mess with it that'll be their ass. you can be a recreational smoker, inhaler, bake goods eater all you want, that doesn't affect my life one bit. i honestly didn't know there were that many ways to get high. i'm of the old school that if i want to feel good ill go get **** faced on a 12 pack or some Jack Daniels. to each their own though. pot heads don't like to get drunk, and people like me don't like to smoke weed, just the way it is i guess.

 

[Warrior74]

One of my good friends just kicked a 3 year oxycotin/heroin addiction. It ruined his life. He lost his job, his college education, his car, his family disowned him for constantly lying and stealing, all of his friends abandoned him. He was dealing to cover his habit and had guys trying to kill him because he owed money. He's been in fights, shoot outs, car chases with the cops. It took someone ODing in front of him on sh1t he just sold them for him to finally wake up to what he was doing to people and to himself. Oh wait, it took 2 ODs for him to wake up. I haven't seen him in almost 2 years because he ripped off me off and he's just a shell of the person he was. He's finally getting real treatment, for dependency and for his pyschological issues. That more than anything was what he needed to stay clean. He needed to sort out the stuff in his head that was driving him to medicate.

Me. I smoked pot for a few years, did some x at a few parties and then quit. I saw both of my uncles ordeals on both sides of the crack epidemic, one as a deal and one as a user. I knew I was never going down the road on the hard, and I knew I would eventually give up on the weed. I don't miss any of it. I might have a drink or two and then ease up so I can drive home. My roommate smokes pot every day and I have no urge to touch it. I doubt my buddy could sit in a room with people shooting up every day and not want to touch it.

I talked to a federal agent not to long ago, and I played the role of agreeing with him. He told me point blank. They will never legalize it in America because there is too much money involved. Too many budgets, too many jobs, too many prisons and private prisons...all run on the war on drugs. He told me that if we cut weed out, the DEA would lose millions of drug users as leverage for millions of dollars in the war on drugs. Oh and also the poor mexicans would catch even more hell because their economy would collapse. Outside I was smiling and agreeing, in my head I was like DUDE WTF? That's your problem right there.

 

[backbreaker]

One of my good friends just kicked a 3 year oxycotin/heroin addiction. It ruined his life. He lost his job, his college education, his car, his family disowned him for constantly lying and stealing, all of his friends abandoned him. He was dealing to cover his habit and had guys trying to kill him because he owed money. He's been in fights, shoot outs, car chases with the cops. It took someone ODing in front of him on sh1t he just sold them for him to finally wake up to what he was doing to people and to himself. Oh wait, it took 2 ODs for him to wake up. I haven't seen him in almost 2 years because he ripped off me off and he's just a shell of the person he was. He's finally getting real treatment, for dependency and for his pyschological issues. That more than anything was what he needed to stay clean. He needed to sort out the stuff in his head that was driving him to medicate.

Me. I smoked pot for a few years, did some x at a few parties and then quit. I saw both of my uncles ordeals on both sides of the crack epidemic, one as a deal and one as a user. I knew I was never going down the road on the hard, and I knew I would eventually give up on the weed. I don't miss any of it. I might have a drink or two and then ease up so I can drive home. My roommate smokes pot every day and I have no urge to touch it. I doubt my buddy could sit in a room with people shooting up every day and not want to touch it.

I talked to a federal agent not to long ago, and I played the role of agreeing with him. He told me point blank. They will never legalize it in America because there is too much money involved. Too many budgets, too many jobs, too many prisons and private prisons...all run on the war on drugs. He told me that if we cut weed out, the DEA would lose millions of drug users as leverage for millions of dollars in the war on drugs. Oh and also the poor mexicans would catch even more hell because their economy would collapse. Outside I was smiling and agreeing, in my head I was like DUDE WTF? That's your problem right there.

damn he has a point.. the mexican economy if there is no weed, then they have no jobs, if htey have no jobs tehn they... come here looking for jobs. so you get rid of one problem (drugs) and now you have a bigger problem (even worse immigration)

today i have, absolutely zero desire to use hard drugs of any kind. though i do smoke weed ft ime to time and by time to time, a few times a year. we don't keep any in the house and if our friends bring some over we might stach a little for later. my wife still doesn't' believe alot of what happened in my drug using days I was well done by the time i met her. I've lived out here long enough to where I am pretty sure i could find it if had to and i have no urge to whatsoever.

I have found that recovery is much easier when you have something to live for or a life to go back to versus trying to build one from scratch. if all you every have done inj your life is do drugs and be around druggies you dont' know anything else. this IS your life. for me i had an established life, of having sex without drugs, of doing non drug things , of having non drug related success to where i knew this was not the long term path for me. but you see it all the time in rehab, someone who is really, just dead tired. you can see it in their eyes. they really do want to change. and they get in rehab and have some time under them.. but they start going back to doing old things and old behaviors beucase tat's all they have ever done. me i had zero drug friends. not one. but if that's all you have ever had that's all you have. you can't; go over sam' shouse and just watch a game without him shooting up lol. a person can only take so much.

 

[Deep Dish]

I talked to a federal agent not to long ago, and I played the role of agreeing with him. He told me point blank. They will never legalize it in America because there is too much money involved. Too many budgets, too many jobs, too many prisons and private prisons...all run on the war on drugs. He told me that if we cut weed out, the DEA would lose millions of drug users as leverage for millions of dollars in the war on drugs. Oh and also the poor mexicans would catch even more hell because their economy would collapse. Outside I was smiling and agreeing, in my head I was like DUDE WTF? That's your problem right there.

That may hold true for the feds, but bear in mind 95% of drug prosecutions are made at the state level. The feds are so dependent on the states to do their bidding.

State legalization is inevitable and imminent, sometime between now and possibly 2020. There are 25 states which allow direct citizen initiatives, although four states can choose not to implement and so it’s really 21 states, and there are two states which only allow constitutional initiatives. If a legalization initiative becomes enshrined in a state constitution, as may happen this year in Colorado, there is nothing the feds can do to coerce a state to re-criminalize, as of course, state legislatures cannot touch their constitution and the feds cannot commandeer state criminal laws. The feds may withhold highway funding to coerce per se DUID laws, but even with that very few people would be affected.

According to statistician Nate Silver of the New York Times, the nationwide average is projected to rise to 60% by 2020, and 60% is the golden number you need for an initiative to win. So, almost half of the country may see legalization within a decade or two. Bear in mind, also, that when pollsters ask the ‘weed question’ it’s for general legalization and the results are around 50%, but when pollsters ask the more specific question of legalization + regulation, support climbs an extra 10% or so, so some states may already be ready.

Once enough states legalize, there will be enormous pressure to change the political winds in Congress. So, don’t say “never.”