The Nice Guy Documentary

[Rollo Tomassi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-xp0LewhI8

Discuss.

 

[Scot McKay]

That pretty much sums it up, at least in terms of the cause/effect. I didn't see the "solution" captured very effectively, though, other than the brief reference to being indifferent.

Note that there's not a single HB in the entire vid. That's an eye opener. It isn't just the hotties that are disgusted by "Mr. Nice Guy" stuff.

 

[azanon]

I'm 36, and my experiences so far say that bad boy IS the way to go; and not just with women. I've noticed that in my work environment, I've recently revealed a few other things about myself to my boss and my female co-workers that I know they personally (at least by voice) wouldn't approve of, and these are things that THEY KNOW, that I already know they wouldn't approve of yet, without apology, I revealed these things about me, with pride and without remorse. When I read their faces when doing that, I read (without question), "wow, this guy really believes in xxxx, and apparently by telling me so openly, doesn't give a s*** whether I'm going to approve of it or not".

As a result of being this way, and not worrying about what others think, I have gotten more respect than I ever have in my life. Ironically, i'm going to say ironically because it really seems like it should work the opposite; these people seem to want to be around me even more, rather than less. I'm proving by experience that confidence really is a desirable trait.

Have you heard strength in numbers before? Imagine strength that doesn't seem to even require numbers. Wow; unheard of. Shoot for introspective strength, fellows.

Women are simply following biology shaped by millions of years of evolution. Who's going to be able to protect and provide for them more; someone who doesn't believe in himself and requires the acceptance of others, or someone financially, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually self-sufficient?

 

[Bonhomme]

This is once again using the term "nice guy" when the correct term is more along the lines of "suck up."

 

[Metro3pilot]

Awesome

High 5

:rockon:

 

[Colossus]

There was a few good insights, but overall a lot of matrix material. I think a lot of guys intuitively know what the truth is they just dont want to accept it because women tell them otherwise.

The guy at the beginning who said the essence of a nice guy is that he is always trying to mold himself to his girlfriend/girl he likes, resulting in her resentment or disinterest---he gets it.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Women cannot respect men they can manipulate. This is the attraction of the Bad Boy, he's harder to manipulate.

 

[reset]

I honestly don't know how to react to it---I know what the guys are saying is true (for the most part), and what the girls are saying is true (for the most part), and I remember how much it hurts to be like that, but at the same time I don't feel like that's "me" anymore. I'm not sure what IS me. But as I was watching it all I could think was "these guys have no clue about women.", even though what they were saying was accurate and that was my experience most of my life.

Maybe that means I'm getting ahold of my own issues, whatever they are. Probably because a lot of my recent posts, don't really make any sense. I'm in some weird inbetween phase.

 

[Interceptor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtEej1FHVCc&watch_response

 

[Maxtro]

Pretty accurate even though the solution wasn't much of a solution. It was mostly a what not to do video. I really don't want to be an asshole to women. But I can work on being more assertive and less nice. I hate how my natural tendency is to do everything in my power to make the girl I'm interested in happy.

 

[bigjohnson]

Someone here siad it really well when they said "good man" is sometimes mistaken for "nice guy", which is unfortunate because they are vastly different creatures.

A good man doesn't need a bad boy persona, and he's not in the same class as a "nice guy" pushover.

 

[iqqi]

This is once again using the term "nice guy" when the correct term is more along the lines of "suck up."

Thank you.

Discuss.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

why don't these foolish women realize that not even a 'nice guy' would wanna hook up with slVtty women.

Because experience has taught them for the better part of a lifetime that no matter how "slutty" they are perceived, they still have an endless supply of Nice Guys lining up to give them attention - and all this attention does is reinforce their own behaviors. You're giving way too much credit to the convictions of the Nice Guy. As rational as it would seem for a Nice Guy to want to avoid the "slutty" type of girl (subjective at best), the Nice Guy is defined by his deprivation of sex - this is his motivation, his method is being the Nice Guy. We can make his necessity a virtue all we want and justify it, but biology (in this case sexuality) will always trump conviction at some point or to some degree.

believe me, those women on that video will find it extremely difficult settling down in life. They are headed towards 'sex and the city' lifestyle... cuz for them its not really about nice guy and bad boy, but its all about the 'better better deal'

I wish I could agree with this. It would really stroke my sense of moral justice and desire to see real karmic turnaround, but unfortunately I think that most women ultimately have their cake and eat it too. I say this because it's the Nice Guy who'll be waiting his turn to get with them at 30-35 once they've had enough of the Bad Boy (assuming they do) and will be all too accommodating and forgiving (he's the Nice Guy remember?) and leap at the chance to finally be appreciated for being so with the woman who's up to then only seen him as another girlfriend. It's validating to the point of self-righteousness for the AFC to finally see his waiting pay off in the form of a regulated intimacy from his desired woman. Women (and men) are opportunists, they do indeed want the bigger and better deal, and it so happens that steadfast NIce Guy becomes that better deal when her sexual marketability declines to the point that she's no longer the Bad Boys favorite. Nice Guy is all too happy to have her once she's unable or less able to hold the attention of Bad Boy. Thus these 'slutty girls' become the "reformed" Soccer Moms in their middle age, thanks to accomodating (and patient) AFCs.

 

[reset]

One thing I find interesting is the extremes--they don't want a "Nice Guy", they want a "Bad Boy".... there's big gap in the middle, a guy who is a puppy dog and a guy who treats her like crap.

Maybe men have been so whipped over the last decades that the guys that stand out, the "Bad Boy", are just not whipped like Nice Guys. I think you can give the girl a challenge, have boundaries, say "NO", be a little rough around the edges but not be a prick.

It's just being the good guy. When you awake from the matrix as a nice guy you assume the only other alternative is its polar opposite--which isn't true in my opinion. Nice Guys and Bad boys (I'm thinking abusive, low class guys) are both separated from their own power.

 

[Colossus]

We often use the vernacular for illustrative purposes, especially on this site. 'Nice guys' and 'Bad Boys' are rather absolute terms.

These pet labels really just characterize a mindset, which is created by abundance, deficit, or anyplace in between.

As Rollo just stated, the Nice Guy can really be characterized (at least for our purposes) by a deprivation of sex. He has a crucial center to his Niceness, and that is the almost unconcious compulsion to always adapt himself to the object of his affection. The Nice Guy always listens, always sacrifices, always supplicates. He is ALWAYS there. And when he isnt there, he apologizes for his absence. Another important cornerstone to the Nice Guy persona is the infectious Scarcity Mentality. Most of us have had it at some period during our lives. The presumption that there is only a select few women for us and any rejection is like being on a deserted island and seeing a plane fly overhead, as you wave your arms frantically, only to pass you by. Who knows when the next one will come. The Scarcity Mentality is really predicated by a lack of experience. Talk to any man who has considerable experience with women and dating and you will not find this attitude, unless he is coming out of a long period of abstinence, which is another contributor.

Nice Guys often seem to get the girls they used to shower with platonic affection because as those women age they begin to realize the decline or decreasing effectiveness of their sexual agency (borrowed that one from RT).
Women can intuitively sense when their most powerful asset, their sexuality, is nearing its 'shelf life'. Naturally they will tend to seek out a secure partner, one whom they know will give them the security of continued presence, provision, and pose little threat in terms of finding and/or attracting younger more sexually inviting females.

The Bad Boy, conversely, is characterized by myriad factors, much more complex than the Nice Guy; but there are some common threads. In general, the Bad Boy doesnt care. He doesnt care if he doesnt bang Sarah Jane, because there is a million more Sarah Janes that are ripe for the taking. He doesnt care if hurts a girls feelings, if he p!sses her off, "uses" her for sex, or if she has a Nice Guy boyfriend. There is a wildness to the Bad Boy; he is usually dangerous. Girls who play with Bad Boys almost invariably get burned, but they keep goin' back, sure as the sun rises. Bad Boys are immune or at least very resistant to feminine manipulation. Why? Becasue they dont care. They are willing to walk away at the first unexcuseable annoyance. Thus, they are no longer a commodity to females, they are an ITEM. So the Bad Boy continues to have his pick of the harem while the Nice Guys continue to live in the ever-present "affection field" that they offer to the women who get burned, healed, and re-burned by the Bad Boy who is ultimately getting what he wants; at least from a sexual point of view.

Again, these are general terms that describe a mindset. I personally think the true Don Juan is neither a Nice Guy or a Bad Boy. He is a Man unwilling to compromise his own integrity and identity to identify with someone else in hopes of winning their affections.

 

[reset]

I wonder if you have to get lots of sex before you move away from that scarcity mindset. I'm learning to not be manipulated, to feel more sexual. I'm not getting laid this moment---but I'm starting to move away from what you mentioned, like being trapped in a desert and seeing the plane, that's exactly how I used to feel about myself.

Now I realize I've just been lying to myself the whole time. Women seem more responsive to me now, and I'm starting to see that as normal--I think before I just assumed if I saw an attractive girl, clearly she couldn't be attracted to me---all because of my own perception of myself, which led to the scarcity mindset.

And that's some messed up thinking.

 

[Frank2500]

Re: Scarcity Mentality and Self-Improvement

Colossus, I appreciate you elaborating what exactly is the Scarcity Mentality, because I wasn't sure what it was and I had meant to bring that up in a question here. Jonwon had said that he believed I had a "scarcity mentality" in response to one of my posts a week or two ago about the dating scene at the gym and I assumed it was a compliment, without realizing that it is actually instead perceived as a negative. I politely explained to him that I do not suffer from fear of rejection at all, because he misinterpreted my actions based on what I wrote in my post.


But overall, I can relate to this overall nice guy discussion. As most of you know, for me it's been an issue of cultural adaptation because it wasn't until I came to this country that I began to come across women who found the so-called thugs and bad boys and men who mistreated them/exhibited jerk-like behavior attractive. Now that I have been in the U.S. long enough, I have grown a lot in that area to the point where I certainly don't tolerate any crap from these women and stand up for myself. I had an interesting experience a few months ago. I was sort of casually dating this chick who is an administrator at a university in the area. We went out on two dates, but for some reason, I seemed to sense that her interest level wasn't the same as mine. If I called or e-mailed her, she would take two to three (sometimes four) days to respond. But now I am at a stage where I look more at women's actions than how they pretend to act while in my presence.


What put the final nail upon everything was when we had both agreed that we would schedule a date before she traveled to Asia for a month. The chick travels to Asia and I don't even have a clue about it. I text her on her cell phone to try to set up our next date and she responds about three days later to tell me she's in Asia already. That just did it for me. She told me that we should both talk when she gets back to Philly in October. I didn't respond to that text message and have never contacted her since, neither has she. So obviously, my interpretation was right. We weren't on the same page as far as interest level. I don't waste my time. During my AFC days, I probably would have tried to contact her in October despite the obvious clues that she and I weren't right as mates.


I took the same firm stand with the other big booty chick at my gym I'd been trying to talk to for almost a year who finally gave me her number some time last month but when I called her, she never called me back. I never called her again either. I ran into her last Saturday at the gym and she came to my machine and said "How are you doing?" "Good," I responded. "How are you?" Life goes on. She probably thought I'd be desperately running after her because of her fat ass. Absolutely not. I know better than that.

 

[Interceptor]

Women cannot be 'sexual' with a guy who is not comfortable with his own sexuality.
Women cannot truly relish in sexual adventures with a guy who is clearly desperate.

Men cannot be perceived as a tough as nails, commando tough guy with immense emotional strength and resolve if he has to kiss ass of any girl hoping she will like him.

Never try to impress.
Never seek validation from anyone, least of all from a woman whom you are attracted to!
Never kiss anyone's ass.
Never be 'nice' to someone in exchange for something. Either be nice becasue it's you ,your genuineself, and you admire and respect yourself and the person, or don't do it at all.
Never try to get ANYONE to 'like you'.
The more you NEED things from people, the LESS likely they will give it to you.
The more attention you WANT from a woman, the LESS likely she will feel comfortable GIVING it to you.


Women EXPECT Men to take charge and LEAD.
Lead lead lead!
Keep the train goin'

If you're not leading , the woman will be LESS likely to go forward with you.The more you hesitate, the MORE she WILL hesitate too.

Women want MASCULINITY.

They may not really know how to express it in DETAIL, but they know what they want when they feel it and experience it.


The more comfortable you are with your body and your sexuality, the more attraction you may get and the more willingness a woman may have to expereince you....

IF you're NOT willing to put your EGO away and on the side in order to fully express yourself to a woman, the less likely she is to reciprocate as well.
IFyou're not leading and going after what you want, the more resistance you may actually GET!!!

Meaning, the more you hesitate, the MORE she will be likely to put up more shields and barriers.
Especially if you're hitting her attraction switches, but you are faltering GETTING HER INTERESTED.

And I just want to reiterate for the less fortunate..


Flowers, cards, gifts (agh!!), poems, and telling a woman your "feelings' for her, and how "romantic you are" HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...ZERO...........to do with getting her attracted.

All that is a waste for a woman you just met.

You do that stuff, and you will KILL any attraction she may have had for you. You are OUT!!!!!!!!!


Act nice to everyone, not just the 'hawt' chick.

NEVER ever EVER give 'special"attention to any woman just because she's "hawt".

And always always ALWAYS MAKE Sure you DO NOT show "INTEREST" to her without HER actually DESERVING it.

Being a good Man, is honorable, and should not be looked down upon.

ESPECIALY when it DOES NOT come from a place of 'neediness" and low self esteem.

 

[reset]

Neither does recreating the scene from Say Anything where John Cusak stands outside the chick's window in the middle of the night, holding the boom box over his head blaring Peter Gabriel's "In Your Eyes". It has to be one of James Blunt songs instead.

Isn't it funny how one of cinema's most iconic moments is the personification of AFC.

The more I wake up from the Matrix the better I feel. Men were not raised to be men in our society.... no wonder so many guys have trouble being confident with their sexuality or taking the lead with a woman---we were all brainwashed into doing everything that is the opposite of masculine (not to beat a dead horse).

 

[Interceptor]

When Males were not shown their way to Matrue masculinity, what do they show?
When men are conflicted in expressing themselves and actions, and are told they need to be more femenine and more in touch with their feelings, what do they show?

When males cannot understand why they cannot get attraction form any woman, and try desperately grasping at straws because they just don;t understand how to do this, what do they show??


Males, who are not Masculine, whom don't know HOW to become MEN, are taught to be..MORE FEMENINE. Meaning, being themSLVES is not good enough..they must be MORE LIKE WOMEN!

How the f*ck can you explain THAT one to me?!

Men, whom don't even understand masculinity are being told to be more like women.
that''s why you see things like:
"I like this girl. How can I identify with her so she will like me?"

(I swear to God, actual question from a guy on a fourm.)
The guy said "IDENTIFY". IDENTIFY???!!!



Males, whom do not understand themselves and women,, and well calibrated social dynamics, have a harder time dealing with all these things because of a lack of defiining moments into masculinity, lack of masculine role models, and an inabiltity to understand thei internal conflict going on in his mind.

Males, evolutionarily, (mis) understand 'peacocking'.
In that they have a desire to 'express' themselves to Women.
What do they express to women?

Flowers
Cards
Gifts
Dinner
"romance" ( in a cheesy, immature way, not a genune masculine, and matrue manner I mean.)
Song lists recordings, songs, music etc (just like the example of Cusack in "Say Anything". Because he coud NOT EXPRESS HimSELF to the Woman)

.....ALL of these are a FORM of human 'peacocking' by males.

Males without clear, defined , and inherently well understood Masculinity present WHAT to the world, and women?

Certainly NOT 'themSELVES"!

They 'present' PRESENTS.

Anything BUT Them SELVES!

It's a misunderstood, mutated version of peacocking it is.

It is a misguieded attempt to get people to "like" them.
It is a clumsy way of getting actoss what they feel, what they want to express.

Hence, again, the perfect example of 'Say Anything".

What you are seeing is a goofy, clumsy, non masculine male attemtping to 'court' or 'woo' a Female by being soocially inept and socially maladjusted.

What a role model, huh?
Oh boy , I sure want to be that guy!
Especially when he actually gets the girl!!
Illusion. fantasy. As in ...don't make me laugh, dude.

(Now I am not against being Romantic, or sometimes really showing your true, deepest feelings to a woman. If you are confident, secure, and not needy, it can be very romantic and increase her attraction and her affection for you. But this all MUST come from confidence, not NEEDING. You may be shocked, but there ARE some very mature, confident and sexy women whom happen to be very very Romantic, and actually APPRECIAzte a man whom makes Romantic gestures towards her, to show how much he appreciates her and what she does for him, and how much she ADDS to his life.)






What does a secure, confident masculine and mature man present to a woman?

HIMSELF.

His 'peacocking"?
Himself, his body, his mind, his spirit, his character..

ONLY AFTER...AFTER.he has established HIMSELF as confident and masculine, can he then show his romantic side, artistic and creative side to a woman he is interested in.

When you start to share interest (like similar musical tastes, painters, poems, whatever) it is actually very very nice to share this with a kindred spirit of a good woman.
Sharing this part of yourself is good. It is normal. It is the 'getting to know you" stage. And it has to be there to establish an LTR.