The Jerk vs. Nice Guy Conundrum

[Rollo Tomassi]

I know, I know, Nice Guy vs. Jerk has been done into the ground many times, but I just did a consult with a young man about this and I thought you all might like to read my take on it.

You can sift back through any number of pages in this thread and read me over and over agin telling young men to "get in touch with their inner A-Hole." In any of my posts, never do I state to in fact become an A-Hole. The 2 most common questions I get asked advice for is "Why do girls love Jerks so much?" and the "Lets Just Be Friends" line. Both of these illustrate different ends of a spectrum. Think of it this way - on one end of the scale you have the consumate Jerk, he's obnoxious, an A-Hole, borders on abusivenes, but women flock to the guy in droves. On the opposite end of the scale we have the ultimate Nice Guy who does and embodies everything any girl has ever told him he needs to become in order to achieve their intimacy and has internalized this doormat conditioning into his own personality. This is the guy who'll spend countless hours on the phone being 'friends' with a girl or spend fortunes on gifts for her in order to buy her approval.

Most guys are socialized and conditioned to err on the Nice Guy side of the spectrum by their girl-'friends', their sisters, their female aquaintances, and yes, even their mothers. They are constantly told that men need to "get in touch with their feminine sides" and identify more with women (in effect to become more like women) in order to attract and better please them. This sounds like pretty efficient, deductive logic to guys: I want sex + Women have the sex I want + Ask women what conditions must be met to get sex + Meet said conditions = I get sex. The problem is, while this is a pragmatic approach to solving a problem, it rarely plays out that what women say they require as conditions for their intimacy ever matches their behavior when giving their intimacy. How often have I read or listened to these symp Nice Guys complain about how their female 'Friends' cry and moan to them on the phone for hours about their A-Hole boyfriends only to go fvck the guy 10 minutes after she hangs up with him? The Jerk is successful with women, because he doesn't do what women claim they want in the 'perfect boyfriend', he is a challenge, he is a mystery, he is a project for her to work on and as long as he remains so she will readily give him her intimacy.

We only chase what runs away from us.

It's important to bear this in mind while you're trying to understand the Jerk - Nice Guy dynamic. The Nice Guy gives everything away for free, his attention, his time, his effort - he'll gladly alter his life's ambitions and cater his very personality to better his odds with a single, solitary target woman and once he's exhausted all possibility of intimacy with his target, he moves on to another target with the same methodology and getting the same results. He is everything the Jerk is not and believes he's correct in compromising and supplicating himself because he thinks that women perceive him as "not like those other guys." The Jerk on the other hand gives nothing away. He is self-concerned and often self-centered, he'd never think of compromising any aspect of himself in order to better please a woman because, unbeknownst to even himself, his attitude has always attracted women to him and if one doesn't want to chase him he knows that other women seem to want to often enough. He naturally exudes confidence, though he may not be aware of it, and he is what women love (but _say they hate) as they show in their behavior over and over again - a 'Bad Boy'. He's untamed and his attention is a commodity, not only for them, but any girl they may be competing for it as well.

So where does that leave you? As I said, most guys tend to lean towards the Nice side of this spectrum, either to mask a deficit in their own abilities to attract women or becasue they've been conditioned for so long by women (and other men so conditioned) to sublimate their natural masculinity. Ooh, and now I've gone and used the 'M' word, masculinity. For far too long guys have been conditioned by popular culture and understandably complacent women to think that anything even bordering on masculinity is something to be shunned or ridiculed. In the same effort feminized culture would like us to get in touch with our feminine side, they likewise would sublimate any masculine characteristic as being negative or in need of female corrective measures. Simply put young men not only don't know how to postively become men, they're conditioned to interpret anything masculine as something to be repressed. Ergo we have this prevalence of Nice Guys ready to "take anything they can get" and doing "whatever it takes" to achieve female intimacy and compromising very important aspects of their own personalities and ambitions to do so. Consequently they become frustrated with women and their inconsistencies in belief and behavior and either become very bitter with them (leaning all the way over to the Jerk side) or they pass them off as "just being women" and unknowable or illogical in order to help them cope with persistent rejection and confusion.

My stance on this whole thing is for guys to get back in touch with their inner A-Hole and not to fear or demonize masculinity. Nice Guys are too familiar with their feminine (which I think is Carl Jung pop-psychology nonsense to begin with) sides and need to explore without shame or guilt or fear of ridicule what it means to be a guy. There are far too many Nice Guy fathers teaching their sons to better supplicate to the desires of women rather than becoming great Men - to be uncompromising and to make themselves the PRIZE to be competed for. The reason the Jerk is so attractive is just this; He has the confidence to put himself and his ambitions before women. Women are a compliment to his life, not the focus of it. Start to lean your personality over to the Jerk side of the spectrum, not all the way of course and falling into the traps of being a Jerk, but instead tapping into the positive aspects of what makes the Jerk not only desirable by women (that's secondary), but the self-concern that makes him successful in other aspects of life. Women naturally want to be associated with this success, they want to be a part of a guy with prospect. By erring on the side of the Jerk you maintain your identity and maintain a woman's respect for you. How many Nice Guy/Friends do you think women really respect and show this in their behaviors?

And that's how I'll conclude this - Behavior is all. Behavior is how a man or woman manifests their true motivations; we're all hypocrites to some degree. I know so many Nice Guys that will excuse a woman's blatantly contradictory behaviors in respect to what they state because they have a sexual interest in them. The first step towards becoming the PRIZE should be adopting an attitude of zero tolerance for this and developing the confidence to walk away from less than optimal situations. Your attention is the strongest reinforcer for a woman, if by her behavior she contradicts herself, remove it! By excusing it, you reward her for it and reinforce it for the next instance.

 

[TedJustAdmitIt]

Always enjoy your posts Rollo.....good stuff

 

[frank05]

I appreciate the effort you have put into writing this post, but I think you should stop giving people bad advice.
You are basically telling the guys who read your post to turn somewhat into jerks so they can "be the prize".
That's bull****! That's not what girls want, that's not the road for success.
Jerks and AFCs actually come from the same place. They are both attached to an outcome and they both use negative emotions to get that outcome.
AFCs give everything upfront, with a hidden expectation in return.
He supplicates over and over expecting to get sex in return, and then when he gets dumped he blames the girl.
Jerks, realizing that AFCs get nowhere , take as much as they can from people because of their own insecurity about their abilities to attain what they desire. They also will harbor anger and hostility if they do not get what they attempt to take. Jerks try to extract sex or whatever from women but they add absolutely no value to her life. Jerks will be somewhat successful with low self esteem women, but eventually smart women will grow tired of this.
Girls do not want AFCs nor jerks, because deep inside they are exactly as insecure.
They both supplicate. One with expensive gifts and the other one faking desinterest or treating her like ****.
Women do want leaders.
Leaders increase both the value of himself and the value of the woman. They take responsibility for their actions and creates positive emotions.
People naturally want to be around others who can add value to their lives and make them feel good. They are charismatic, comfortable and inspire everyone involved to more positive and pleasurable emotions.
Leaders do not supplicate to a woman and shower her with insincere compliments. Leaders are also not the guys who sabotage her emotions with lies, deceit and invalidation.

 

[sstype]

Originally posted by frank05
I appreciate the effort you have put into writing this post, but I think you should stop giving people bad advice.
You are basically telling the guys who read your post to turn somewhat into jerks so they can "be the prize".
That's bull****! That's not what girls want, that's not the road for success.
Jerks and AFCs actually come from the same place. They are both attached to an outcome and they both use negative emotions to get that outcome.
AFCs give everything upfront, with a hidden expectation in return.
He supplicates over and over expecting to get sex in return, and then when he gets dumped he blames the girl.
Jerks, realizing that AFCs get nowhere , take as much as they can from people because of their own insecurity about their abilities to attain what they desire. They also will harbor anger and hostility if they do not get what they attempt to take. Jerks try to extract sex or whatever from women but they add absolutely no value to her life. Jerks will be somewhat successful with low self esteem women, but eventually smart women will grow tired of this.
Girls do not want AFCs nor jerks, because deep inside they are exactly as insecure.
They both supplicate. One with expensive gifts and the other one faking desinterest or treating her like ****.
Women do want leaders.
Leaders increase both the value of himself and the value of the woman. They take responsibility for their actions and creates positive emotions.
People naturally want to be around others who can add value to their lives and make them feel good. They are charismatic, comfortable and inspire everyone involved to more positive and pleasurable emotions.
Leaders do not supplicate to a woman and shower her with insincere compliments. Leaders are also not the guys who sabotage her emotions with lies, deceit and invalidation.

What Rollo is trying to say is niether extreme works out in the long run. But as far as raw sexual attraction goes, women will err on the side of jerks. Jerks, while they are decietful and manipulative, are also cunning, their behaviors turn women on, regardless of what how much they hate them.

Even though it is not the ideal man like you describe, women would rather fyck jerks than nice guys

 

[Gravyboat]

Music to my Ears

Great insight, Rollo. I always enjoy reading your posts--they're consistently well-written and intellectually stimulating (not to mention dead-on.)

:woo:

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Nice post. The problem with most guys (especially AFCs & RAFCs) is that they are very binary, they think on either end of the extremes. Yes/No, On/Off, Left/Right.

The key to effective DJing is the ability to be flexible, to adjust to situations without leaving their personal realm of DJism. The world, at least as we know it, has definite laws or truths. The most important of these truths is that women are not definite! Stop looking for static, unchanging tricks to successfully interact with women.

 

[Freddy1]

No offense I tend to disagree with some of the comments.

I would say the following:
Younger women wants jerks
Older women wants nicer guys

jerk:The reason why younger women or immature women like jerks is because they are unpredictible, spontaneous, outgoing, fun, and dont need to be mother-ed or to be baby sit.
The reason why they hate nice guys is because they are BORING and need to be lead like a helpless puppy. They dont want a "mamma's boy".


nice guy:The reason why older women or mature women likes nice guys is because after they been treated like crap by so many guys who turns out to be jerks they (get mature) would rather settle with a nice guy. They want someone they can take to their parents (unless they hate their parent and wants to offend them they take a jerk home instead)
They hate jerks because they are simply jerks. In their stage of life they are ready to settle down. They cant afford to be bitc*es anymore either because their looks are going down the hill.

SOLUTION:The solution is to be a combination of both ( a rowdy jerk on the outside but a nice guy in the inside). Take the best of both qualities and discard the rest.

Francisco d'Anconia is right about flexibilty. You have to learn to be flexible. Dont take crap from a women but at the same time dont be a total jackass either.

 

[JackPrescott]

Originally posted by sstype
What Rollo is trying to say is niether extreme works out in the long run. But as far as raw sexual attraction goes, women will err on the side of jerks. Jerks, while they are decietful and manipulative, are also cunning, their behaviors turn women on, regardless of what how much they hate them.

Even though it is not the ideal man like you describe, women would rather fyck jerks than nice guys

Sounds like jerks have it together to me. Nice guys mastrubate at night, while jerks are busy getting the objects of the nice guy's desires nice and wet, with some oral sex, before entry.

 

[djbr]

The reason the Jerk is so attractive is just this; He has the confidence to put himself and his ambitions before women.

Rollo, your posts rule.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Originally posted by Freddy1
No offense I tend to disagree with some of the comments.

I would say the following:
Younger women wants jerks
Older women wants nicer guys

On the whole true enough and easily obseverable in the women's stated desires and behaviors. This is because women's conditions for their intimacy change in priority as she ages. From a very early age women have had to deal with the uncomfortable truth that as they age the less desirable (and sexually valuable) they become. For men this dynamic is reversed. When a man ages he generally has more access to provisioning ability (i.e. he's got a better job, is better educated, more mature, etc.) and becomes more sexually valuable to women looking for long term secrurity. It's no secret that women have lengthy mental lists of conditions a man must meet in order for her to 'feel comfortable' in exchanging her intimacy for. Men must be attractive, employed, have status (some call this power or influence), be an initiator, pay for the date, be a good listener, be humorous, be sensitive, etc., etc. (BTW men only have one condition, she's got to be physically attractive). These conditions have priorities assigned to them - unconsciously or consciously - in varying degrees of importance at different times in a woman's life. So while the 22 year old woman may opt for the rockstar biker Bad Boy, she'll wonder where all the Nice Guys are at 29 as her marketability is waning in favor of young and more attractive 22 year olds filling the vaccuum she's left. It's not that her preferences have changed, its the priorities of her conditions that have shifted in respect to her circumstances. At 29 or 30 she may place a good job as being more desirable than physical attraction. That's not to say she doesn't want an attractive man for a long term mate, it's just a negotiable condition depending upon his ability to provide for her security at her age whereas she may have had this as her primary condition at 22.

Now how do we address the older woman having sexual flings with younger guys who don't represent a good provisioning ability for her? This is where you can introduce the dynamics of short term versus long term mating viability. A woman who settles with the Nice Guy - Good Dad still knows that he may not represent the best breeding stock for the long term, but certainly will make a good provider for her offspring over time and will play the loyal dedicated role of parental investment. In the short term the unemployed, up and coming Bad Boy rockstar or her personal trainer may be a better choice for her in the short term. Thus we have the retroactive infidelity where she secretly cheats on the Nice Guy husband post marriage or the proactive infidelity of the single mommies who marries the Nice Guy in order to help her raise the Bad Boy/Jerk Boyfriend's progeny.

That's not to give guys a free pass, we cheat for our own reasons, but it comes back to women's natural propensity to desire a mate that exhibits both strong masculine characteristics and good provisioning ability - rarely do these two conditions exist in the same individual. And human beings being the oportunists we are can only expect women to find a necessary work-around to their circumstances.