The importance of intimacy and it's relationship with trust.

[LovelyLady]

What matthew Kelly writes about sharing your story:

quoted from his book:

What's Your Story?
You have a deep need to be known. Within each of us there is a story that wants to be told. Intimacy means sharing our story. Sharing our story helps us to remember who we are, where we have come from, and what matters most. Sharing our story keeps us sane.

Visit any mental institution and you will discover that most of the patients have forgotten their own story. They simply cannot put the yesterdays of their lives into any cohesive or structured memory. As a result they lose sight of the reference point that the past provides us in mapping our future. When we forget our story, we lose the thread of our lives, and we go mad. To varying degrees, we all forget our own stories, and to the extent that we do so we all go a little mad. Great relationships help us to remember our stories, who we are and where we have come from. And in some strange and mystical way, by remembering our stories we celebrate ourselves in a very healthy way. What's your story? What's your family's story? What is the story of your relationship?

It fascinates me that if you ask a couple at their rehearsal dinner to tell their story -- how and when they met, when and where the proposal took place, and so on -- there is a passion and enthusiasm in the telling of the story. But as the years pass, the reply to the question "How did you meet?" becomes a three-word answer, "In the library," "On a plane," "At a bar." This is a classic example of how, over time, we forget our story or become immune to its power.

Only by sharing our story with another will we ever feel uniquely known. Otherwise, and I assure you it happens every day, we can pass through this life and on to the next without anyone ever really knowing us. Imagine that. Imagine living your whole life and never being really known by anybody.

We also have a great need to share the story of our relationships. Just as a person who forgets his story goes insane, so does a couple who forget their story. They don't go asylum mad, but both participants in the relationship start to do crazy things that ultimately can lead to the breakdown of the relationship. Unless they can rediscover the thread of their relationship, unless they can remember and cherish their story together again, the breakdown of their relationship inevitably leads to a breakup, or a life of quiet desperation within a relationship that has gone mad.

 

[LovelyLady]

Sharing traumatic parts of our stories

I posted this above^^^ because several people have pm'd me, and a common theme is the sharing of their stories and how the desired bond of intimacy was not obtained.

This phenomena occurred with the sharing of very personal past traumatic experiences the men have had and how they feel the sharing actually drove the women away. There is a question mark as to why the women would not move forward with them.

I think this concern is a powerful one and would like to bring the topic out here in the open for discussion.


I do want to preface my sharing by saying there are some people who really just don't care about anyone else - they are very self-focused and motivated by instant self-gratification and simply have no desire or ability to create bonds of intimacy,
there are people with personality disorders such as narcisism, BPD etc, and there are people who have so very much of their own pain, they simply do not have room in their hearts to hear another's story. This is actually a small segment of the overall
population, however. And there are usually indicators of the person's true nature before we reach the storytelling dynamics of something as significant as trauma.



Anyway, some of my experiences and the dynamics/process I watch for when I am getting to know someone:

It is rare that the story/event a man shares with me in and of itself is the reason I do not move forward with the man. Too often as children (and adults) people do NOT have the power to detemine the "what happened" of their lives - so I never hold the "what happened to me" stories against anyone.


However, there are 2 determining factors that are important to me and they are process oriented:

1. What is the "frame" he is establishing? What is the motive/energy/foundation being established in the energy of the sharing itself? How a person approaches building intimacy with me tells me what his "frame" is. It tells me what level of emotional health and
well-being he is able to offer and experience in an intimate relationship with me.

If his "frame" of intimacy is not compatible with mine, I am able to listen, comfort, even advise at times - but I cannot move forward romantically/intimately with him and sharing the who I am if I find incompatibilty in this realm.



So, some reflections:

I think it is important to examine why we are sharing our pasts - trauma's specifically, with someone. When we share our stories in the building of intimacy - what is the the foundational "energy" of the bond we are creating ?

Is it to create a sense of pity in the listener so they will rescue us or be less apt to hold us accountable because we have been hurt in the past? There are people who will cling to a victim stance due to their pasts, to shield them from the responsibility of being fully present in the relationship they are in today.

Is it to bond over a mutual trauma? To bond on the basis of our past pains and losses? (This is a common phenomena in my age group with men surrounding divorce - they can focus a HUGE amount of energy trying to get a woman to bond on how bad HER ex was in comparison to HIS ex and blah blah blah) I do not feel the fact that the simple commonality of experience alone is a good foundation for healthy intimacy.


Is it to have them "fix" our old pain? Certainly loving and being loved well does heal us. But many people's stories are ones of severe traumas that require the healing guidance of a therapist. To go with a painful part of our stories to our partners with the expectation that they will provide the kind of guidance they are not equipped to give us puts a very high burden on a
relationship.



2. How did he/does he deal with the trauma since it occurred?


I want to know as much as he wants to share, but ultimately: Where is he now inside himself with what he experienced? Has he made peace with how the event changed him? Is he a better stronger person for having gone through it? Where are areas of tenderness I need to know about to support him as he continues to live with this part of his story?

But if a man has NOT dealt with his own life challenges, then this is an indicator to me he is not equipped
with the tools to deal with difficulties that may arise for us when we are a couple.




...Additional thoughts...
it is an honor to bear witness to another person's life. Certainly the sharing of our individual stories is intimate.

But I do not believe bearing witness to another's life is the height of intimacy. It is when we also allow each other to become a part of own stories... that is an intimacy of loving and sharing that occurs far beyond the edges of the sharing of our stories.

 

[logic1]

LL your on a roll.

As for as the haters look at it this way.

People attack what they fear or dont understand.

 

[Magma]

People can live without sex, but we cannot truly thrive without intimacy. It is something we all crave. Truly intimate relationships are essential to living a full and satisfying life.

I don't agree with this. At all. I love my life and I don't think a truly intimate relationship is essential for me to live a full and satisfying life. Many women cannot fathom this.

 

[dannyegg4575]

What you've posted is very beautiful LadyLove, and in the world of true love, I do believe that is the case. However, I have yet to see the truth in any of this from any women I've been with.

It takes a great deal of strength to get pass a lot of hurt and anger when you suffer a loss. In my mind, a man does not dwell in self pity but would like a listening ear. He too does not need a solution from women to solve his problems. He just needed a listening ear or some time away from the problems to slowly band-aid his hurt until the wound is fully recovered. A man doesn't need solution from anyone because he sees it as weakness. So when he tells you his pain, he doesn't need you to do anything. It is during that time that he feels intimacy in knowing that you are someone he can trust, recover and head out for battle again.

With regards to the letting go of his story of the past makes him go insane, I disagree. Monks are able to let go of all past hurts and desires. They are emotionally detached from all pain and suffering.

 

[j0n024]

OK thanks LL I was trying to figure out why you would post it here......so guys here go to loveshack and talk in this "Philosophical," discussion?

LOL.....My name ....I dont think we should be that mean to just attack women but still I agree to a point, most women here do look for validation and seem like AW's to me. Hell this post seems like a useless article HERE now if it was at LS then I would understand but here I see no relevence, but I think I see where your going and understand what you mean....I wont attack the women that do post here since I see no relevence but you got my support lol.

PS: Your game for women was pretty good dude....lol only thing you forgot to mention is that if the girl is ugly(Which in general is most of the time) then you have to get the guy real drunk for it to work lol.

 

[DonGorgon]

This thread is very philosophical and esoteric.

I kept mine very simple...

Intimacy is in peril cause trust and trust worthiness are at all time lows....

 

[Interceptor]

Intimacy is feared by cowards.
It sucks, but it is true.

Intimacy is not understood or desired by those who prefer not to feel.
Which is actually quite depressing really.
I cant belive some people want to choose some glorified catatonic state, no matter how hard they try to justify it.


They have a term for those people........'checked out'.

A mature masculine man, fully grounded and present is NEVER 'checked out'.
Nor does he operate out of fear and ignorance.




As they say "Ignorance is bliss'. Yeah, bliss for a mindless drone.
That's not for me. I hope to God the men here do not choose that path as well...

So I can certainly understand a blind fool not wanting to fully realize himself and his life and share it with a good woman partner. To fully receive her gifts in an appreciative and mature and enlightened manner.


Funny, how we as humans are given the gifts of love, affection, intimacy, reason, insight and emotion.
And people decide to not use them or feel them!!!
It boggles the mind, but from a rational mature perspective.

I can see how these topics can shake the foundations for immature fearful people who would rather live life behind their masks and comfort zones.

We mock what we do not understand.
And we attack that which we FEAR.

That is the work of the unconscious mind. Not an enlightened person.


Intimacy and vulnerablity are traits that only a mature, insightful and developed person can understand. and understand and appreciate and cherish and HONOR its power.And can achieve these from a stance of strength..NOT Fear and Ignorance.

People who dont trust others do so because they cannot trust themselves.

In the end, we have to have compassion for those who cannot reason with these things.

But I must admit I am personally bewildered that any male NOT appreciate the value of this topic and the deep reaching effects it has on the development of a mature masculine man.

 

[The Bat]

I think people fear talking about this topic diligently because superficially, it has some AFC characteristics. Not many people are ready to sit down and self-reflect to a deeper level that this topic demands.

Realize that there is at least one guy out there who is glad he is reading this discussion.

This should be moved to Tips section.

 

[thedeparted]

I will back MNIN and say this thread BLOWS CHUNKS.

Frankly, I don't need a lecture on intimacy from a woman on SoSuave. I can get that any day by calling up my ex.

The whole notion that men need to be more in touch with their feelings BLA BLA BLA is spread by the feminocracy. This is the same movement that portrays men as hairless apes in sitcoms and beer commercials. Convinces guys that forking over half their money in divorce court is par for the course. And is now selling Mr. Mom, the stay-at-home-dad who does his alpha-wife's laundry, as the new black.

In conclusion, there is nothing wrong with having your intimacy. It's just like having your wank. But if a dude came up to lecture me on the need for regular masturbation, I'd pop him in the jaw, and he'd thank me for it.

So with all due respect, I say we give the lovely lady here the heave ho... until she figures out that this is a forum for teaching men how to meet women, not BECOME them.

 

[thedeparted]

People who dont trust others do so because they cannot trust themselves.

See, this is the kind of hocus-pocus psycho-babble bull honkey that a thread like this spawns. You will not find any evidence for such a statement in any psychological textbook. People who can't trust are that way as a result of (1) abuse by a care-giver (2) neglect by a care-giver, or (3) a traumatic experience. It's not an issue of not trusting themselves.

And more to the point, if you hoodwink guys into thinking they need to be vulnerable to get women, what they will get is whipped -- and then dumped.

All of this advice-- and I use the term liberally--runs strongly counter to what this site is about, and I think it borders on contempt to post it here.

 

[LovelyLady]

Intimacy in the Physical Arena

For many people the physical is where they most easily recognize intimacy.

Within business there is the handshake, the pat on the back, that bridges space between two people. Within friendship and family there are hugs, perhaps playful "fwops" on the head, and non-sexual affections.

Relationships with physical distance have physical aspects: the reading/writing of a letter, the contact of fingertip to keyboard as you communicate online, the sound of voice over the phone.

Within the romantic context there is sex. While sex does not automatically result in intimacy, there is great power of relating to be found in our sexuality. Within the confines of an intimate relationship, a powerful bond of intimacy can be created between a man and a woman during sex.




There are 4 basic sexual "frames" I have found men offer. (These are simplified for discussion purposes. I believe women functon within these various frames. It is my belief that men create the framework for the relationship and women choose whether or not they are comfortable/compatible within his framework).


1. The Sex is Not Important to Me Frame:

These are the men who site how long they have gone without sex and try to reassure a woman that this is not his agenda in relating to her. These are men who although capable of arousal, are disconnected from their sexual passion.



2. There is the Sex as Game and Conquest Frame.

These are the Takers (both the men and the women). They collect sexual experiences to build their self-esteem and for entertainment purposes. Much information is available in the seduction and dating industrial complex to acquire the basic opportunity to "score sex" from another person.

They are generally very skilled at physically satisfying a woman - however the focus is still technique and performance based. The ability to satisfy (and be satisfied by) a woman is experienced as a manifestation of self-value and what the person TAKES from the encounter. This is a very common frame.



3. There is the Sex as Barter or Trade Frame

There is an abundance of opportunity to experience sex-as-barter. These agreements are well-known: the variety of financial offerings for sexual interaction. Less spoken of is when a man will offer commitment (or a woman will require commitment) to acquire/trade sex. (For clarity: This is not the same as two people who already have a developed sense of commitment and choose to share themselves physically with one another).



4. There is the Sex as Expression of Intimacy Frame

Sexual intimacy as a sharing of whole selves and a physical manifestation of intimacy already shared in other ways between two people. It is a sharing of self with other. An expression of depth of feeling/respect/honor/desire and recognition of the truth of the entirety of the other. These men require a partnering with women who are capable of conscious physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual sharing and exploration of intimate sexual interaction and exploration.



In summation, there are choices in the " physical/sexual intimacy frame" a man creates/offers regarding his sexual encounters with us women. Various levels of the physical interaction may - or may not - create a shared intimacy.

 

[LovelyLady]

Emotional Intimacy

Emotional intimacy requires great vulnerability and trust/trust worthiness. We guard our deepest fears, worries, thoughts, and desires - and we should. It takes time to build the trust of sharing this part of ourselves with another.

We reveal aspects of our emotional self to people constantly; often our body language screams our emotional state louder than words ever could.

Revealing your emotional self in a healthy and positive ongoing process is a core element of genuine intimacy. This requires the commitment to accepting your own - and the other's feelings - without judgement.

Offering comfort, safety, and security to your partner so there is a freedom to be your true whole selves - emotions included.

Respecting and accepting their emotions without belittling them as crazy, out of control, psycho, or irrational (which of course they are not rational - this is an emotional intimacy that is occurring - not an intellectual intimacy).

Validating the emotional experience of the partner and not using their vulnerable expressions of emotion they have entrusted you with as a weapon in a disagreement with them later.

The sharing of our emotion's with our partners is to be a cherished and respected area of intimacy that needs to be guarded and revered.

 

[LovelyLady]

Intellectual Intimacy

Intellectual sharing is most often experienced through conversation and the written word.

Inorder for true intellectual intimacy to occur there must be an environment of safety and tolerance.

If there is a requirement for every idea and thought to match our own, that is a manifestation of a lack of intellectual strength. The ability to accept that your partner will process information differently than you do is a sign that you acknowledge there is a healthy individual intellectual boundery and experience.


To be comfortable with the challenge differing opinions and ideas may present to your own belief system and the ability to respect and explore the "how" and the "why" of each other's actual beliefs (and process) is foundational to intellectual intimacy.

Many intelligent people are comfortable moving within the realm of the intellect - and yet still will not be able to experience true intellectual intimacy. This is because genuine intimacy requires a moving beyond the sharing of the factual and theoretical - and into exploring the "who" behind the intellect.

When we seek out and share what has caused someone to think/believe what they do. WHY do they think their belief is good, noble, just, "right"? What motivates their opinions and beliefs? What is the source of their inspiration?

It is this level of exploring and vulnerability that produces intellectual intimacy.

 

[LovelyLady]

Spiritual Intimacy

I wish to preface this by saying that common religious faiths is not what I mean by spiritual intimacy.

I believe we are each here to become the very best individual person we are meant to be.

When both people in a romantic relationship are dedicated and live responsibly to their own personal journeys of self-awareness and personal growth, it is then possible to bring the whole self to the partner.

I do not believe spiritual intimacy is possible if either person does not have their individual history of self-knowledge and attention to their own spiritual awakening.



The spiritually intimate relationship offers the support and honoring of the other person's need to achieve his or her "best self".
This does not mean that there is always agreement.

For example: perhaps one person feels it is spiritually best to be vegan - it would not follow that both people must change dietary habits. But it does follow that there is no disrespecting or undermining of this choice. If partner A feels a vegan diet will spiritually aid them, Partner B does not belittle, shame, mock, undermine, etc. this decision.

This is not because of an approval - or disapproval of the vegan diet choice itself - but it is because the partner is committed to support the spiritual journey of the other to be his/her best self.



Some of the characteristics of a spiritually fulfilled person are: high character, patience, forgiving, humility (remaining teachable), honesty, mindfulness, reflective, passionate, grateful, free, compassionate, trusting, trustworthy, integrated, authentic.

The spiritually awake/developed person unites in intimate partnership while making the primary goal of the relationship to support (and receive support) in the individual journey of self-realization.

This is viewed as a relational imperative as it speaks to not only a key shared value of selfhood, but honors the need to attend to the development and maintenance of the resources each person brings to co-create the highest quality intimate relationship.

++++

Anyone interested in exploring this further may want to explore Tantric Relationships

 

[LovelyLady]

People who can't trust are that way as a result of (1) abuse by a care-giver (2) neglect by a care-giver, or (3) a traumatic experience. It's not an issue of not trusting themselves.

hmmm. I've been thinking about this a bit... assuming the "(1) abuse by a care-giver (2) neglect by a care-giver, or (3) a traumatic experience" occurred in childhood - isn't it that the abused/traumatized person does not trust him/herself to be able to keep himself safe as an adult? Isn't it actually a misplacement of fear and lack of trust?

As children, we are unable to protect ourselves and trust adults to protect us.

But when we become adults, we are responsible for trusting ourselves to protect our own selves. (I hope I am making sense here )

As adults we no longer rely on trusting the judgement or treatment of others/our caretakers to protect us - we TRUST ourseves (or not) to now make good judgements about who we are vulnerable with.

If betrayal and trauma occurs as an adult - again we must ask: given the information I had up to the point of violation, was my judgement sound? And you trust yourself to glean the lesson the experience has given you to choose more wisely in the future. If you do not trust that you have a soundness of understanding who you are and why you choose the people you do to interact with, that lack of self-trust does not support a trust in others.

Also, as adults we must recognize that the concept of the "just world" simply does not apply. People DO betray, people DO deceive, people DO harm to others.

At which point - isn't the issue again trust in self - to be able to handle any crisis or trauma that comes your way? To TRUST YOUR SELF to be resourceful in getting your needs met to cope with any betrayal, loss or trauma that may occur in your life?

If I cannot trust my own innate strength, wisdom, and integrity to choose wisely - and to take care of myself should I be harmed by another - then I am unable to trust another/the process of becoming intimate with another.

 

[Interceptor]

See, this is the kind of hocus-pocus psycho-babble bull honkey that a thread like this spawns. You will not find any evidence for such a statement in any psychological textbook. People who can't trust are that way as a result of (1) abuse by a care-giver (2) neglect by a care-giver, or (3) a traumatic experience. It's not an issue of not trusting themselves.

And more to the point, if you hoodwink guys into thinking they need to be vulnerable to get women, what they will get is whipped -- and then dumped.

All of this advice-- and I use the term liberally--runs strongly counter to what this site is about, and I think it borders on contempt to post it here.

Wow, so you're that afraid of women, huh?
Damn, at your age I would think you woudl have matured and gotten stronger emotionally.
Must suck to be you!!!

Dude, Im sorry you got hurt in the past.
And that you fear this so much.

But I understand your point of view.
It doesnt make sense, becasue it is irrational and somewhat behind in understanding, but from your perspective it makes sense to you. And thats fine.
We dont have to agree.


Thats cool
No one here is trying to convince anyone of anything.

But if people cannot be intimate with others, it means they lack the ability to be intimate with themselves.
If they cannot trust others, it's because they lack the tools to recognize WHOM TO TRUST and WHOM NOT TO TRUST.

Thats not hocus pocus mumbo jumbo, its the truth. Like it or not.

Too many guys are underdeveloped and inexperienced, so they look at the world from a place of fear.
Since they fear the unknown, they project the worst case scenario, which only demonstrates their lack of masculinity and self confidence.
Ultimately the evidence of mistrust only magnifies the lack of proper personal boundaries, and self control.

No one is a victim.

Either youre aware of who youre dealing with or not,or you may be ignoring who youre with on purpose.

At the end of the day, most men fear intimacy because they fear the women seeing their true inner chode.
Since these men do not know how to RELATE to women, they fear it. And of course, since we mock what we dont understand, it only brings light to the ignorance of the subject.

It is crazy to assume that to bond and be intimate with your woman is 'femenine'.
As if there is a 'rule' telling you that you MUST bond and relate with her as a Woman.

Sheesh!!

talk about misinterpretation and misinfomation!!

What that tells ME is the apparent LACK of deep rooted masculinity!

To fear intimacy and bonding with your woman reeks of insecurity.
It reeks of AFCness.

I mean, what are some guys thinking? That they HAVE to tell their woman every single last detaill of their life?

"I was a lonely child. No one loved me! Hold me, please. Boo hoo..."

Dude...
who started that 'rule'????!

No one is saying THAT is the WAY to be Intimate with your woman.

It is THE MANNER in which you relate to her.
She doesnt want you to relate to her like youre a woman!

To think that is total foolish ignorance.

No wonder the frustration demonstrated here

A woman wants to know who you really are.
If you HIDE it from her....she will not trust you.
If you HIDE yourself, she will notice and be turned off!
That reeks of insecurity and self doubt!
You guys dont see that?

WTF is ther to hide from her?

The inner chode/wussy boy??

OK. Then I agree. Dont be intimate with a woman if you dont have the skill. And make sure you totally AVOID learning how to relate to women,please.
Yes, please stay away. Make sure youre nice and safe in chode land.
Thanks.



I believe that we're blaming intmacy and not the male's inability to relate to a woman as a Man.

Does that make sense to you?
to blame intimacy, instead of drawing attention to one's inability to handle that emotional and physical closeness?

Dont we ,as men here subscribe to the motto :"Dont wish it were easier, wish you were better"?

But that doesnt apply to relating to your woman?
A double standard, perhaps. But not constuctive.




To hide and not want to be close out of fear is the most chodey thing you can do, barring spilling your guts about something that happend when you were 6years old or something. They are BOTH EXTREMES. And it demonstrates lack of understanding, guys.

There was a time you didnt know how to drive. And perhaps you were a little afraid of it. But now you can drive easily and dont consider it 'scary' at all. You dont fear it anymore, do you?

Same goes with skill with women, and dealing with the emotional pressure in the territory.
Real men dont run away , do they?
Then they dont run away from stating who they are to their women, because they have the confidence and self esteem that she cannot damage or take away.
You guys DO know that she cant hurt you or control you, right?

right?

So the mature masculine man understands the territory and navigates it with confidence, even if it is UNKNOWN.That is a TRUE marker of Masculinity.



Even then, dont you think its important to discern WHOM you should be that intimate with???!!!

Isnt that important?
Or are some of you just lazy?
And would rather deal with superficial low class, immature females???

If you are immature and insecure, You will NOT attract the elusive 'quality' high class woman to you.

You wont even appear on her radar




Bottom line, if you lack skill with intimacy and bonding and relating to a woman AS HER MAN...........she will dump you chode ass for a REAL Man.

THATs when she realizes youre an insecure little kid who doesnt know how to handle a grown woman.

Part of the rationale behind the sh*t test is to see how you handle close intense emotonial pressure. she wants to see how you react, what youre made of when dealing with her.

Women are attracted to a Man's Emotional Strength.
It demonstrates his ability to handle tough situations.
It shows her you can Survive and protect her. If you can survive and protect her, she feels you are RESOURCEFUL.
Resourcefulness and your masculinity therein, are the MOST important attractors that work in your favor.

She is hard wired to respond to those regardles of looks, money ,whatever....



It demonstrates the calmness and self assuredness She DESIRES in a partner.



So you can see by the abject horror and fear and apprehension displayed by insecure and ignorant males when they protest and get so defensive about a subject they have little understanding of..I mean if this meant nothing to you, most guys would just ignore it and move on....



At the end of the day Lovely Lady is trying to help, (yes, for those who want it) not brainwash or indoctrinate anyone.If someone reacts that way to a post, then you can tell they dont have much reasoning or rationality....

irrational fear is based on subconscious programming driving one's actions.
Not logic and reasoning.


Stay safe out there, men.
Be strong.
Be wise.
And choose wisely the woman you let into your life.
if she is immature and not considerate of You, then you dont have to be in her company, youre not obligated to be with her if she doesnt understand you or appreciate you.

Walk on, brothers.

 

[BeyondCharm]

Walk on, brothers.

Sorry bro but even for you, that was an all time messy post. I don't think anyone is going to read it unless you clean it up a bit. Just sayin.

 

[Interceptor]

I think it is imperative for men of all ages to come to grips with this stuff.

Emotional intimacy can be a scary place for A LOT of men.

We need to stop the sh*t and get down to business, and understand it, and stop misinterpreting things.

 

[logic1]

Sorry bro but even for you, that was an all time messy post. I don't think anyone is going to read it unless you clean it up a bit. Just sayin.

No what happened was he scared the chit out of you and you pissed in your pants.

Your reaction was to attack the source that scared you and caused your ebarassing situation.