"She's Out of Your League"
You've said it a hundred times. Maybe a thousand. And every time you say it, you train your brain to freeze the next time she walks into the room.
Leagues are a myth invented by guys who are scared of women.
She's a person. She has bad breath in the morning. She picks songs she can't sing in the shower. She overthinks her own texts.
Walk over. Say something. The league dissolves the second you open your mouth.
The "Guy Friends" Issue
- Thread starter Demon
- Start date
"So, What Do You Do for Fun?"
She asks it casually, mid-sip. And you feel the floor open up, because the honest answer is work, gym, and a couple shows you're half-watching.
Women rarely say this out loud, but a man with a life is attractive before he says a word. The guy who spent Saturday deep-sea fishing and came back with photos and a story — he walks in already interesting.
The "22 Rules" pushed me to build a life worth talking about. Turns out the fastest way to be interesting to women is to be interested in your own life first.
Francisco d'Anconia
Master Don Juan
It's not whether or not she has guy friends; she's bound to have guy friends unless she lives and works in a convent and if that's the case she wouldn't be dating you. What matters is what she does with her guy friends.
BobFuest
Senior Don Juan
its a case of trust. The main thing is this. DO NOT avoid reality. I see too often that people say "oh i can change her" or "she is not like they say". SHE IS and you know it. if you cant trust a girl who has "guy friends" then she was not worth the trust in the first place. If she is then you have nothing to worry about. I made the mistake of believing in my ego so much that I didnt trust my instincts. IF you have to question her guy friends i bet you she isnt really worth trusting. I.E. you already know what is going to happen.
Some women, however, remove their "guy friends" from the equation entirely. For example, my sister has historically limited herself to cultivating only friendships with other women when she has a boyfriend. Other women actively cultivate friendships with both men and women regardless of the relationships in which they are involved.Francisco d'Anconia said:
This would be true in those circumstances where your view of the situation isn't corrupted by biases and assumptions. I'm not easily trusting. I'm naturally distrustful. In these situations, I wouldn't know whether to trust my distrust.BobFuest said:
I suppose the key issue here concerns the point at which the line between friendship and intimacy is crossed. Clearly, as guys, we know when that line is crossed from our perspective; that is, we know when we cross that line. When you are, however, not directly aware of your girlfriend's interactions with her "guy friends", there is room for speculation.
The original question is probably better reframed as, "What behaviors are common to women who are becoming intimate with their guy friends?" How would you reliably know whether she is becoming involved with another guy without resorting to mischievious tactics?
BobFuest
Senior Don Juan
The same behaviors you would see as if she had a lowered interest level or someone who is cheating. She has time for her guy friends and not for you. She isnt as available as she should be. she leaves the room when on the phone. she receives gifts.Demon said:
There really is only one solution. Forget about it. If she is fooling around your not going to be able to stop her and if she wanted to hide it from you she could. The only thing you can do is forget and stop worrying about it. Be confident in the fact that you have her and if she wants to go then you never had her to begin with. My favorite line is: "you want to go, then good. You really deserve someone who is more like you." i.e. you b1tch u deserve a loser like yourself. :yes:
"She's Out of Your League"
You've said it a hundred times. Maybe a thousand. And every time you say it, you train your brain to freeze the next time she walks into the room.
Leagues are a myth invented by guys who are scared of women.
She's a person. She has bad breath in the morning. She picks songs she can't sing in the shower. She overthinks her own texts.
Walk over. Say something. The league dissolves the second you open your mouth.
Well you know why the guys are there right? Our (men's) motivation will always be the same (pvssy). We don't actively pursue friendships with women we aren't attracted to. She's going to have these "friends" around for whatever reason (fall back guy, attention whoring, etc.) so the real question is, can you deal with it?
Sir Drinksalot
Don Juan
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Guys are always trying to nail girls they're "friends" with. Lots of times they're losers who have been banished to the "friend zone" but hang around for more abuse due to lack of options.
But guy friends can wreck hell on an LTR in a hurry, if for no other reason than to spite you.
This depends on the woman and her relationships, by the way. If she's got some guy she's known since college and talks to twice a year, I wouldn't worry. But if guy friends are replacing friendships she should be having with other women, you should look elsewhere.
I dealt with this problem a lot when I was a pup, with some success and some failure. I always approached it the wrong way - ultimatums, rationalization (including showing her the Chris Rock stand up), even laid a couple ass beatings on the more aggressive guy pals.
Upon further review, I would not do any of the above now. What I'd do is just tell her "look, this stupid s**t isn't working for me. I dont' like feeling like you're holding a gun to my head. My life's too valuable to be aggravated, I don't like head games, let's end it."
Maybe she'll cut ties with the dudes and crawl back. Maybe she won't. Who cares? At least you'll leave with your ego intact.
Losing the "Scarcity Mentality" allows you to avoid problems like guy friends and bail out quickly when something doesn't feel right... And obviously, this doesn't feel right to you.
But guy friends can wreck hell on an LTR in a hurry, if for no other reason than to spite you.
This depends on the woman and her relationships, by the way. If she's got some guy she's known since college and talks to twice a year, I wouldn't worry. But if guy friends are replacing friendships she should be having with other women, you should look elsewhere.
I dealt with this problem a lot when I was a pup, with some success and some failure. I always approached it the wrong way - ultimatums, rationalization (including showing her the Chris Rock stand up), even laid a couple ass beatings on the more aggressive guy pals.
Upon further review, I would not do any of the above now. What I'd do is just tell her "look, this stupid s**t isn't working for me. I dont' like feeling like you're holding a gun to my head. My life's too valuable to be aggravated, I don't like head games, let's end it."
Maybe she'll cut ties with the dudes and crawl back. Maybe she won't. Who cares? At least you'll leave with your ego intact.
Losing the "Scarcity Mentality" allows you to avoid problems like guy friends and bail out quickly when something doesn't feel right... And obviously, this doesn't feel right to you.
resilient
Master Don Juan
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I've been wrestling with this issue as of late. I took my g/f to a theme park on her bday and throughout the whole date she received text and calls from "guy friends" exs/ex-fbs, who knows... I got the gut instinct that they had a sexual history just by the way they flirted on the phone. Point being, it was disrespect and low IL to me and in hindsight I wish I would have said:
"Look, let's make a deal. Today is your bday and we're enjoying it here at x theme park. Let's turn off our cell phones so we can enjoy our special date together."
Respect back in my court.
If my girl had high IL than those "guy friends" would have been screened/missed calls. -- Yeah the ego takes a beating here.
I say watch her behavior/actions more and see if these guys get ignored. If she insistantly uses them for attention, then she's a classic AW that needs a DJ to put the foot down. Most of the time it's better to spin more plates while this one sits on the backburner.
Posts above are true, don't try to change her -- it just fuels her AW behavior even more or like Chris Rock says when her IL is real low she'll take that hammer and break the glass.
See if the cool stuff you do increases her IL back up to the top. If it doesn't she's just another plate to drop.
"Look, let's make a deal. Today is your bday and we're enjoying it here at x theme park. Let's turn off our cell phones so we can enjoy our special date together."
Respect back in my court.
If my girl had high IL than those "guy friends" would have been screened/missed calls. -- Yeah the ego takes a beating here.
I say watch her behavior/actions more and see if these guys get ignored. If she insistantly uses them for attention, then she's a classic AW that needs a DJ to put the foot down. Most of the time it's better to spin more plates while this one sits on the backburner.
Posts above are true, don't try to change her -- it just fuels her AW behavior even more or like Chris Rock says when her IL is real low she'll take that hammer and break the glass.
See if the cool stuff you do increases her IL back up to the top. If it doesn't she's just another plate to drop.
"You'll Never Feel READY to Walk Over"
Next Monday you'll feel more confident. After the gym you'll feel more confident. After one more drink you'll feel more confident. After you get a better haircut, a better jacket, a better job.
You've been "getting ready" for two years.
She's standing ten feet away right now. She'll be gone in four minutes. No amount of preparation will manufacture the courage that only comes from moving your feet.
Walk over. Stumble through the first sentence. Let it be clumsy. Let it be imperfect. You will feel more alive in those ten seconds than you have all month.
we talk about IL being key. but also remember that woman's self esteem is also key.
like with the last post. your gf might have high IL in you, but low self esteem (ie. attention *****). she just can't help but answer the phone all day because she just loves the attention.
blindly she doesn't realize that this is lowering YOUR interest in her. perhaps not to the point that you walk away, but over 3, 6 or 9 months, enough incidents like this and you're IL starts to bottom out.
thats when you hit the "P*ssy only" zone. that point we've all gotten to where the only real reason we're sticking around is for p*ssy.
which comes back to my recent thesis in the marriage thread, that the only reason to get married, or to be in an LTR is if you RESPECT your woman.
personally im beginning to think that IL is a term that works well for DJ'ing, but not so much in catagorizing events in LTRs. for LTRs i think the term RESPECT works better. So high respect (HR) or low respect (LR).
if you have HR for her, odds are you're in good shape. when you start to get LR for her, the titanic is officially sinking (and probably already sunk, just takes some time).
the deal breaker i've noticed with most guys is when their woman starts to be have in disrespectful ways. thats usually when they start to try and control their woman, become judgemental, etc. - all of which is an attempt to change their womans behavior. what they should do is just walk away.
nothing even needs to be said. she will know that you left because you don't respect her. women are subconsciously aware that the only thing that can offset their p*ssy is LR. which is why women are so cautious NOT to be seen as wh*res. they know that if you see them that way that you have LR for them, and that you won't see them as THE PRIZE.
if she comes back she'll behave in ways that you respect. or she'll just pull the same old crap, at which point you walk away for good.
as for the guys as friends thing. there is no right or wrong answer to that. its all relative to how she carries herself. a woman isn't stupid. she KNOWS that even the most confident man is going to be a little bothered if she's got 15 guy pals in her life. a woman concerned with keeping her HR in your eyes will let you know that you're her number one. if she doesn't, then shes probably an AW and gets off on your insecurity about these other guys.
point being, its not a problem unless its a problem. and if its a problem, odds are its a problem because she doesn't care enough to make sure that you don't see it as one.
dont explain anything to her. just walk away if you RL is bottoming out.
like with the last post. your gf might have high IL in you, but low self esteem (ie. attention *****). she just can't help but answer the phone all day because she just loves the attention.
blindly she doesn't realize that this is lowering YOUR interest in her. perhaps not to the point that you walk away, but over 3, 6 or 9 months, enough incidents like this and you're IL starts to bottom out.
thats when you hit the "P*ssy only" zone. that point we've all gotten to where the only real reason we're sticking around is for p*ssy.
which comes back to my recent thesis in the marriage thread, that the only reason to get married, or to be in an LTR is if you RESPECT your woman.
personally im beginning to think that IL is a term that works well for DJ'ing, but not so much in catagorizing events in LTRs. for LTRs i think the term RESPECT works better. So high respect (HR) or low respect (LR).
if you have HR for her, odds are you're in good shape. when you start to get LR for her, the titanic is officially sinking (and probably already sunk, just takes some time).
the deal breaker i've noticed with most guys is when their woman starts to be have in disrespectful ways. thats usually when they start to try and control their woman, become judgemental, etc. - all of which is an attempt to change their womans behavior. what they should do is just walk away.
nothing even needs to be said. she will know that you left because you don't respect her. women are subconsciously aware that the only thing that can offset their p*ssy is LR. which is why women are so cautious NOT to be seen as wh*res. they know that if you see them that way that you have LR for them, and that you won't see them as THE PRIZE.
if she comes back she'll behave in ways that you respect. or she'll just pull the same old crap, at which point you walk away for good.
as for the guys as friends thing. there is no right or wrong answer to that. its all relative to how she carries herself. a woman isn't stupid. she KNOWS that even the most confident man is going to be a little bothered if she's got 15 guy pals in her life. a woman concerned with keeping her HR in your eyes will let you know that you're her number one. if she doesn't, then shes probably an AW and gets off on your insecurity about these other guys.
point being, its not a problem unless its a problem. and if its a problem, odds are its a problem because she doesn't care enough to make sure that you don't see it as one.
dont explain anything to her. just walk away if you RL is bottoming out.
Rollo Tomassi
Master Don Juan
Women don't have 'guy friends.' Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you're not fukking her, you're her girlfriend.
Demon said:
It's not an issue so long as it is not an ex-bf. It's silly to think coed friendships have to be footnoted with one party have an underlying attraction for the other. Do I have female friends? Yes. Are some of them attractive? Yeah but so what - that's just a characteristic about them. I have genuine female friends that I've known for years - I knew them when they were single and still stay in touch now that they are married. There are also some girls that I am superficially friends with but would rather date. The reality is, you as the bf can't tell which guys friends are genuine or not, so let her decide and trust her. She knows the guys that come around only when she is single and those that always stay in touch no matter what.
lee36044
Don Juan
That is all fine and good but the truth is that time spent together can lead to things "just happening". Guys know this ... and more guys seem to use this "friendship as a strategy" to get more instead of really trying to be her friend. Can you honestly say that if one of your "superficial" friends decided she did want to date that you would turn her down? Would you really care if she had a boyfriend when it happened?hadoken said:
Letting her decide and trusting her is a recipe for disaster. Especially if that involves lots of time spent with the friend. It's the AFC way! Bottom line is that if her interest level is high ... she'll set ground rules that avoid this. If she doesn't, she has no respect for you anyway ... it's over and you are just waiting to see where she winds up next!
Trust me, the first time you are told that "it's your fault for letting me be around him so much". Your attitudes on this issue will change too.
"Why Women Dump the Guys Who Try the Hardest"
You paid for dinner. You drove. You said "whatever you want is fine" every single time. All the effort, no expectations.
And she left anyway — probably for a guy who makes her pick up the pizza.
Painful. Also predictable. Her mind quietly concludes that anything requiring zero effort from her is worth exactly zero. You became a free sample, and free samples get taken for granted.
The 22 Rules flip the dynamic. Small shifts that get her investing effort, money, and time in you — until SHE'S the one afraid of losing YOU.
Bible_Belt
Master Don Juan
Letting her decide and trusting her is a recipe for disaster. Especially if that involves lots of time spent with the friend. It's the AFC way!
I disagree. Jealousy is the AFC way. Women cheat because their IL is low; if the interest is high, she can hang around other guys constantly but still want you. If you have played your cards right, the girl should believe that you will have just as easy of a time meeting someone else. Being faithful to you is how she works to keep her prize.
Jealousy is submissive behavior that displays a lack of power. It's ok in a woman, and quite useful for our purposes in motivating them, but jealousy is counter-productive in men.
I have read of the male jealousy situation compared to the example of a male baboon, who will spend his entire life chasing competing males away from his females. The advice was "don't be a baboon."
I disagree. Jealousy is the AFC way. Women cheat because their IL is low; if the interest is high, she can hang around other guys constantly but still want you. If you have played your cards right, the girl should believe that you will have just as easy of a time meeting someone else. Being faithful to you is how she works to keep her prize.
Jealousy is submissive behavior that displays a lack of power. It's ok in a woman, and quite useful for our purposes in motivating them, but jealousy is counter-productive in men.
I have read of the male jealousy situation compared to the example of a male baboon, who will spend his entire life chasing competing males away from his females. The advice was "don't be a baboon."
WaterTiger
Master Don Juan
Some people can seperate the "Friends only, NO sex" thing and some can't. I have a few male friends that I've had for years with no sex, or even hint of sex between us. To be honest however, they are guys that are much younger, much older or simply "not each other's type". So this perhaps explains why the sex thing never came up.
KarmaSutra
Banned
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Succinctly stated:
Harry: You realise of course that we can never be friends.
Sally: Why not?
Harry: What I'm saying is... and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or
form, is that men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets
in the way.
Sally: That's not true, I have a number of men friends and there's is no sex
involved.
Harry: No you don't.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: No you don't.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: You only think you do.
Sally: You're saying I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry: No, what I'm saying is they all want to have sex with you.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: How do you know?
Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman he finds attractive, he
always wants to have sex with her.
Sally: So you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds
unattractive.
Harry: Nuh, you pretty much wanna nail'em too.
Sally: What if they don't want to have sex with you?
Harry: Doesn't matter, because the sex thing is already out there so the
friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.
Sally: Well I guess we're not going to be friends then.
Harry: Guess not.
Sally: That's too bad. You are the only person I knew in New York.
Harry: You realise of course that we can never be friends.
Sally: Why not?
Harry: What I'm saying is... and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or
form, is that men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets
in the way.
Sally: That's not true, I have a number of men friends and there's is no sex
involved.
Harry: No you don't.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: No you don't.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: You only think you do.
Sally: You're saying I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry: No, what I'm saying is they all want to have sex with you.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: How do you know?
Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman he finds attractive, he
always wants to have sex with her.
Sally: So you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds
unattractive.
Harry: Nuh, you pretty much wanna nail'em too.
Sally: What if they don't want to have sex with you?
Harry: Doesn't matter, because the sex thing is already out there so the
friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.
Sally: Well I guess we're not going to be friends then.
Harry: Guess not.
Sally: That's too bad. You are the only person I knew in New York.
lee36044
Don Juan
Actually I think you missed the part about if her IL (although I call it respect) is high ... she won't let these things happen. But then I'm not a strong believer in "trust". So perhaps I phrased that statement improperly. In my experience ... most platonic friendships occur when the two involved have no common sexual grounds at all! Trust is not an issue there. And your partner will weed out the ones chasing tail if her IL is high. Not because she can be trusted but as you said because she doesn't want to lose the prize. That isn't trust ... it's self interest!Bible_Belt said:
So lets talk about the real problem, the more typical "lets be friends and see where it goes scenario"? These kind of guy friends will try to take advantage of any little problem between you. As I've said before, this board is full of techniques and strategies for using womens emotional triggers to achieve a goal. They will use them. If her IL is dropping, and she "might" be susceptable to this kind of manipulation, or as has been mentioned ... sees it and goes along with it because it suits her, should she be "trusted" around these kinds of friends?
If things have gone far that she is giving these kind of friends her time ... trusting is a recipe for disaster! Letting her decide is a mistake too. She may not know why she feels the need to associate with the friends but she will defend it using the you are just jealous card if you object! The end result is that the time spent creates a higher likelihood of her IL in you dropping even further. All you can do is roll the dice. Be an AFC and wait around hoping things get better, or be a DJ and try to get the IL back. Which doesn't always work.
It's not about jealousy ... even if the problem is her higher interest in someone else. It isn't about control ... once she has decided on her path ... you won't change it with rules or ultimatums. It isn't really even about trust ... trust is an artificial construct anyway! It is about admitting trust isn't needed if IL is high and trust doesn't work and her decisions will be made based on her feelings if her IL is low!
"She Laughed All Night. Then She Ghosted You. Here's Why."
Dinner ran three hours. She laughed at everything. You walked her to her car thinking this one's locked in.
Then: nothing. Two texts. No reply. What happened?
You did what most men do on a great date. You filled every silence, answered every question, and left her with nothing to wonder about. No mystery. Nothing to sit with when she got home.
Rule 3 of the "22 Rules" changes the ending: tell her a little, hold back the rest, and let her imagination do the chasing. The ghosting stops too.