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The Growing Lack of Personal Responsibility.

Cbaoth

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"Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark, in the hopeless swamps of the aproximate, the not-quite, the not-yet, the not-at-all. Do not let the hero in your soul perish, in lonely frustration for the life you deserved, but have never been able to reach. Check your road and the nature of your battle. The world you desired can be won, it exists, it is real, it is possible, it's yours."

-Ayn Rand
 

Nocturnal

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Egoist said:
Uhm. Look into the history of ancient Greece - the true birthplace of democracy. Look into the history of Rome - the true birthplace of republican democracy. It might be fun for you to discover that the founding fathers were such fans of classical politics thats there is a reason why we have "senators" today.. There are more examples throughout the history as well.

Most of the property and common laws today have also evolved from the western european codes of laws and specifically the english law system, which, in turn, borrowed heavily from the Greek and Roman systems.

Seriously, like look up the origin of words democracy, republic, senator, citizen, etc.. We didn't invent any of it.. LOL..
I'm going to have to agree with A-Unit on this one, things HAVE changed in the past few 10,000 years, particularly, the economic and social freedom of the individual to pursue his personal goals. Yes, a limited form of democracy did exist with the Romans, but capitalism did not, for one. There are other things, such as social divisions and slavery, and the manner in which the government operated (attempting to conquer the world for one). Looking more recently, civil rights were only really secured a few decades ago in the US. The founding fathers were on the right track, but they definitely could not overcome all of the massive barriers that were in front of them, they could only provide a framework for society to grow into, which it has, and still is in some ways.

Since it looks like we're quoting Ayn Rand... :up:
"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual)." -AR

Now compare this to the democracy that you speak of in ancient Rome, and then to the democracy of the founding fathers... with the additional corollary of rights inherent to man, physically manifested in the constitution. Things have changed.
 

il_duce

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BrotherAP said:
Nothing has changed in the past 10,000 years!? That's absurd! The entire world has changed, and it's man that has changed it. Human nature may be the same, the but the environment we live in is completely different. Modern life presents challenges to mankind as a whole and individuals that have never existed in history. How many caveman had the option of walking on the moon? Who, 10,000 years ago, saw the bottom of the ocean, travelled faster than the speed of sound, or died in an atomic blast? Our technology is extremely powerful, and while man hasn't changed, we've put ourselves in circumstances that no other life in the history of the Earth has experienced.



So many statements here lack any support or qualification from you - can you not see the social programming prevalent in your own words. Tell me, based on what is the 'standard of living' higher? Did you know that 100,000 years ago the average man spent 4 hours working a day, and the rest of his time was leisure (or so researchers suggest)? What makes modern life so much better. Is it our toilets and our TVs? I tend to believe that life has become less satisfying with the introduction of technology. How do you measure that? Standard of life means nothing, because it isn't based on measures of happiness. Just what we'd like to think makes people happy.

And how free are we? Our society restricts us, even in the United States - which may be 'free' compared to many oppressive societies that came before, but certaintly we're bounded by laws and social rules. When you want to measure how free you are, don't list what you can do. Try to think if there's anything you'd like to do that you can't. I certainly don't think living in the USA makes a person free. You'll never be free as long as you accept your existing condition as 'free'.



How about this? I completely reject the ability of the government to 'grant' me ANY freedom, because freedom is mine inheritably. Therefore, a goverment that even operates from the assumption that it can grant or withold a freedom is operating under a false pretense. The freedoms that are god given can be taken by no man or government. Our modern world operates from an axiom of control. They tell us every day that we are the most free people in all of history - but is it really true?
I don't think you understand what Egoist was saying. Sure, the human race has advanced a lot technologically in the past 10,000 years, but think about it. Has anything actually changed in terms of human nature, in terms of human behavior in society? No, none of that has changed. There has always been in human society, the oppressed, and the oppressors. You might try to refute this argument using democracy as an example, but look at the U.S.A-- The top 10% wealthiest people control this country, and it's no secret. It's been that way since 1776. None of our founding fathers were poor. The only thing that democracy truly brings is equal RIGHTS to all people. This still doesn't mean that everybody runs the show.

I still don't know where you got the figure that men 100,000 years ago only spent 4 hours a day working. I doubt they even had a concept of "work", because the main goal was really just survival. :crackup: Back then, humans were ****ing fighting for their lives out in the African grasslands...getting attacked by lions and tigers while they were basically hunting for food 24/7. And if they didn't get food, they died (provided they were still alive in such a hostile environment). Which is probably why we humans evolved such an incredible ability to think in the abstract and have dominion over the forces of nature. Because only the TOP 1% human achievers, the absolute strongest and smartest early humans, survived to pass on their genes. The rest were wiped out.

Our societies still work the same way, to an extent. Today's world is less barbaric, less brutal than the one of 100,000 years ago, but the most powerful people still retain their control over the masses. This type of behavior extends throughout the animal kingdom. It's really just a fact of life, that there will always be "alpha leaders" and there will be followers. It's not like this is happening all of a sudden in our modern world.

The real choice is, are you gonna be a leader or a follower? Believe it or not, some people are content with following. :crazy:
 

A-Unit

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Re:

To an extent, we haven't changed our human nature; we are vicious in a more technological fashion. Yes, people try to be more 'humane' or 'religious' or 'spiritual', however these are all just guises or fronts behind which boils a ferocious and strong ego, vying for some place in a world of many.

Tyler Durden said it best when he made his speech on all of us wanting to be rock stars and millionaires and celerities (it was actually Chuck Pahalaniuk), and slowly, people are getting pissed as they awaken to the reality that not EVERYONE can be Brad Pitt, BUT, everybody can be there own somebody. We just spend so much time, being someone else. A great, astute, observation made in the book "Wild at Heart"...don't spend your time looking OUTSIDE in the world at what you can do, but rather find something inside yourself that makes you come alive with passion and alive, because what the world needs is more people ALIVE, on FIRE, and burning with passion. Not aimless wanderers and tramps seeking SOMETHING beyond them. Creatin from within, not without.

But there's the lot of people who are resigned to just say "this is how life is, has been, and will always be" so we must accept the grotesqueries of life as they come. So we make technological progress, and go from chimps with sticks to chimps with bombs? Is that what humans are resigned to accept? Truly, 1984the book will become a reality.

Another point...and maybe it sounds like heresy, but Democracy might be the most current and effective form of government, however, it's not the most fair. Why? Because, the majority holds sway over the minority. So if the government, and the town you live in, feels its in the best interests of the MAJORITY to take your home under emiment domain, they can. And if the town feels its best to allow a strip club, or to disallow a strip club, they can, even if the split is 49% to 51%, they still can. BARELY a minority, and normally they majority is comprised of those who were swayed, seduced, and lobbied for by the people with special interests. Again, I dare say any political system can be PERFECT, but it's best to keep your ears and eyes open.

The purpose of government, in America, plain and simple is to protect our rights, as well the people's right to be protected from government. Anytime a group grows large enough, madness becomes a common trait. In individual and small subsects, it's not as common. And not as lethal. However, as displayed by history, religion in and of itself can motivate a good many people to kill, and think it's ok. This the same premise by which 1.5-6 million jews were killed during World War II.

---------------------------------

Again, it's even less democratic when the government really operates under the employ of the rich and elite, using the army to protect their special interests and assets, and merely uses the proletariat for their devious ends. Its shocking and surprising that people so willingly accept subjugation to someone else based solely on their net worth or political connections. To me an almost cynical standpoint has developed from this Dog Eat Dog mentality.

There are thriving tribes, albeit in third world countries, operating under different political systems, different cultural systems, and entirely different belief systems, demonstrating new ways of operating CAN work. However, those with their cushy seats would have it no other way. Why step down?

---------------------------------

Things have certainly changed from beginning times. Albeit, there was a lull, when the first settlers broke from England and developed the United States, when personal freedom as at its highest. The new settlers were a milieu of businessman and wealthy socialites, and cowboys and mercenaries, not afraid to roam the open wide ranges of the midwest and west. However, this bothers elite who seek concentration of wealth, since they can't control or reap rewards without boundaries. The US breaking from England was seen as a black eye. Never before in history would it be possible that anyone from any background could have something from next to nothing. But this lasted only so long, because eventually, the elites recognized the immense natural resources of the US, walked on over, and stuck some boundaries up, claiming hold to lands previously free and open.

Overtime, we needed some body of politic to rule this wild new terroritory and up came the US, seeking to protect "US" from "THEM", them being outside world powers who might conspire against us during this empire building phase, the last of it. Then the US turned inward, curtailing personal freedoms. The country was still fractured, settlers strewn about the land, some sitting upon billion dollar coal mines or oil wells. "Well, that's preposterous! Nobody can be wealthy by luck of sitting on land that might have value for all! We cannot have that!" And eventually carnegie, rockefellar and all such cronies began usurping wealth, combining conglomerates, and industrializing everything. Henry Ford, though it's been found he still sold to the Germans in World War II, was not as big a wealth usurper as others.

But still, this social experiment known as America was not good enough. They instituted Forced Schooling next, because the independent family unit was seen as a problem for a burgeoning nation. How could we have a sense of nationalism, if we are broken apart throughout the country, and if the family and God are more important than the land we live in? It was learned earlier people respected personal freedom and boundaries MORE than the nation they lived. For too long, countries warred, just because the king/prince/royal family felt it was BEST in the long-term for the country's inhabitants. Coming to America was a chance at each individual holding sway over their own destiny. Not for long though...

The fractioning of the settlers led to the early forefathers seeking ways to band together the entire lands of America into one unified country. This was done so through various wars, which called for NATIONAL pride, which is mistaken mostly as land/empire building. Overtime, the constant threat of outside attack and invasion kept the people on their toes, so that generation after generation would huddle together.

And finally, the hammer stroke would be adding education, which would indoctrinate children into the country from their first instance of consciousness. From the moment they could speak publicly, the kid would recite the Pledge of Allegiance. They would all also study the SAME EXACT thing, which presupposes ALL kids must learn the same thing, AND, that they learn in exactly the same way. I do not have to speak on the utter foolishness of such assumptions. Yet, people feel a sort of kinship when it comes to education, as if my speaking on education means I despise learning! Quite the contrary, I love learning and education! Love it. I am MORE productive when I seek to learn what I choose to know and use, than when someone asks me to memorize facts verbatim, turning me into an economic robot and unit of production, rather than a mere human being.

What is totally ignored is that the human nature spoken of here has subverted overt operations with covert operations. Mind Control is much easier, more effective, simpler, and least costly. And mind control is what you get, everyday of every year, from all aspects, via schooling, media, laws, propaganda, newspapers and newsoutlets, and the 'central computer' known as society.

-------------------------

To me, there's no question someone under certain premises in America can achieve more, than you can anywhere else, BUT, the economic, legal, and social environment is more restrictive now, than it has been ever. More laws require the divulgence of private information. Financial and medical records are all but public with the passages of a few new laws. Anything considered an act of terrorism, which is suspect to the changing definition they lay upon you, can be jailed without an attorney is guilty and must be proven innocent. It's seen that we are the children of a supposedly benevolent father (the government) who seeks to protect us, but will also punish us if acting out of line. This, my friends, is not the dream fostered by the forefathers, or if it is, it is a most horrific idea of the most horrible nightmare ever created.

Perhaps we hold people, humanity, society to a higher ideal, and expect far too much. But shouldn't we? If not, are we not only animals, and perhaps far worse, since their compassion amongst each species is far greater than our compassion amongst our own kind.



A-Unit
 

Da Realist

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"Truly, 1984the book will become a reality."

Actually I think America is going more in the direction of Fahrenheit 451 for some the reasons you mentioned. In the book, Americans have become ignorant since they are losing the capacity for critical thinking and are just following whatever vice they desire. This served to make the population more stable and sedate for the people running the government.

In reality, we have suburban housewives addicted to prescription drugs, kids who could care less about learning, and how no one wants to ask questions because it may actually make them see the world for what it is. Look no further than people who say that humans have been this way for thousands of years. What no one realizes is that men have been trying to be better than what they thought they could be for just as long, and that's what's truly being lost. Personal responsibility stems from the fact that a person acknowledges he or she did something wrong and wishes to have done it better; the person wants to be better than what he or she just displayed. Until people wake up and admit it, things will get worse as you have said.
 

A-Unit

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Re:

Wonderful post, realist. Very succinct, to the point, and on topic.

I agree that things haven't always been the way they are. People are more apathetic. Their involvement in what was once important no longer is. Instead, they leave those things to "other" people, and only concern themselves with a very small fraction of reality, and when they don't like the result, then they bytch, sue, complain, and blame. How many frivolous lawsuits are the result of people suing because they "expected" someone to watch out for themselves?

So if you see a post/thread like this, what's the point? To wake up. The unreal part of life is that you have no personal responsibility. Quite the opposite, you have FULL responsibility in all aspects, aside from fraud or misrepresentation or negligence. If you buy a car, do your due diligence, and something behind the scenes, unforeseen goes wrong, well, then you're not entirely liable. However, to play a company for coffee being too hot, or food making you too fat, or cigarettes causing cancer, is to blame the sympton, not the disease, which is lack of choice. If you CHOOSE something, it's your full responsibility to inspect it fully, because you invest a piece of your life into whatever it is.

If they discover aspartame causes cancer, and yet they put it in foods, and the evidence is out there, why the hell did you drink diet soda to begin with? Yes, a nice class action lawsuit will enable you to enjoy a quick and fast retirement, and possibly an untimely death. However, you still put something unnatural in your body, and anything unnatural can have negative effects on your overall health. However, there's this false sense of security, apathy and acceptance.

--------------------------

Even in government, or finance, or health, it's like SOMEBODY else must know better than I. It never was that way. People used to learn on their own, they used to teach their kids, they used to eat what made sense. But then the pedagogy of public forced schooling, the purported 'experts' who mostly worked for corporations or government controlled operations, and the emergence of everyone's-an-expert-theories-but-me has arisen.



A-Unit
 

manbearpig

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First of all while I do agree theres a growing lack of personal responsibility.. I have to say..

I DESPISE AYN RAND WITH EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING. THE WRITINGS OF AYN RAND HAVE DONE MORE HARM THAN GOOD TO OUR SOCIETY.

I think the Rand philosophy has helped to promote Rugged Individualism in politics, and has helped the Laissez faire corporatist movement in the U.S.A. which if it had it's way would turn the clock back to before the New Deal and tear the Social Contract to shreds. But thats a political topic and not for here so I'll digress.


That said, I hear ya. To me an example of this is how people do not cook for themselves now. My older brother is married and they have kids, and they never ****ing cook. They are cramming their children with CRAP food all the time, oblivious to the long term consequences. All because they are too LAZY to cook. Like most people are also too LAZY to dress themselves right nowadays. We've got tons of 30something "Adults" who are basically like overgrown twelve year olds. What happened to aspiring to be a grown man? It seems like most "men" under 45 or so now(Sorry Gen X, I'm looking at you) aspire to stay a kid as long as they can.
 

Nocturnal

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manbearpig said:
First of all while I do agree theres a growing lack of personal responsibility.. I have to say..

I DESPISE AYN RAND WITH EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING. THE WRITINGS OF AYN RAND HAVE DONE MORE HARM THAN GOOD TO OUR SOCIETY.

I think the Rand philosophy has helped to promote Rugged Individualism in politics, and has helped the Laissez faire corporatist movement in the U.S.A. which if it had it's way would turn the clock back to before the New Deal and tear the Social Contract to shreds. But thats a political topic and not for here so I'll digress.
Ignoring the political implications and effects of Rand's philosophy, what specifically do you have a problem with in the philosophy itself? I would like to hear any logical fallicies that might have discovered that would invalidate it. If you'd like to discuss it, feel free to PM me so we don't have to hijack this thread.
 

diplomatic_lies

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The problems are:

1) People are lazy
2) Most 1st world countries like the USA have "fall-backs". If you don't have a job, you get free money (welfare). If you dont have a house, you get free government assistance with buying a house. If you're stupid, you get reduced exams, etc etc.
 

manbearpig

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Nocturnal I guess its not a problem with just her philosophy in and of itself..

Its the EFFECTS as you rightly pointed out.
 

Nocturnal

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If the philosophy is valid, then you shouldn't have any problems with it or its effects.

I don't have a problem with freedom of speech, in fact, I promote it. But I despise racist comments, which are an effect of it. Does that mean that I should in fact despise freedom of speech or the people who implemented it?
 

manbearpig

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I think the lack of personal responsibility stems from the fact people are just in general more self-centered nowadays. People care less about other people I think.

And in my opinion that originates from the lack of togetherness of families. Families are the basic building block of a society. They're like a microcosm of society at large, and if an individual does not have feelings of responsibility toward others within their own family why on earth would they feel that for society at large?

Just look at Western attitudes toward taking care of the elderly. People would rather dump their parents in a nursing home than take care of them. THEY don't want to be the ones to deal with it. The problem with that is once once person decides "hey its not my problem" than it spreads like a wildfire.
 

Visceral

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Central to "enlightened self-interest" is the belief that - aside from certain extreme exceptions - one ought not cause harm to others in the process of acting in one's own best interest.

The argument is that the willingness to harm others is premised on a denial of the other person's fundamental human rights, which - since you are also human - means you have denied your own rights, theoretically freeing others to do the same bad stuff right back to you.

If this prohibition was taken seriously, then quite a few of the world's problems, from war and crime to predatory capitalism and even pollution, could cease to exist.

Additionally, if you defined failure to help as causing harm, the philosophy would theoretically obligate you to help, so long as you are not harmed in the process (in keeping with self-interest).

This latter interpretation, though probably not what Rand envisioned or how anyone would be willing to live, might go far enough to fix even the complex structural "flaws" in religion, politics, and especially the economy that drive the majority of human misery.
 

manbearpig

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^Exactly. Its not necessarily what she intended, but its the way it has been used to justify Social Darwinist attitudes and ideas.
 

ScrewIt

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A-unit, i applaud you for writing a well thought out post! But i dindt read it.
However reading your post name, i know what your'e talking about it.

I believe a better term to dub this is 'personal accountability'. The questions behind the questions book talks about this in different perspectives. it's a great small handy book and i suggest reading it (if not buying it).

I do agree with the book and in general with the issue. Problem is people like to point fingers and blame him/her for a problem while in reality no one wants to admit that they're wrong. Of course we all know that taking responsibility of a situation most often leads to to more work. In retrospect, by admitting wrong means accepting responsibility, thus accepting more work on your part..more dedication.

i think thats why it's easy for people to avoid accountability of a situation, so they wont have to deal wit hthe stress that comes with it. honestly...it's easier to run away from a problem/push it away than figuring out a way yourself iwth dealing with it.

thats where the general population fails. Thats where entrepreneurs succeed, they know how to use this to their advantage. to most people its easier being a follower than being a leader. the leader demands more from himself and from life, however the follower accepts what's to come and accepts life as it is.

By nature humans are lazy. why do the work when you can have someone else do it?
 

Visceral

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I don't know if what I'm about to say is true or not, or even if it makes any sense, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Times and society have changed, and with them, the signs of weakness and strength. Thus men now behave differently than they did in the past in order to impress and intimidate.

Here are what I think is going on.

Doing anything beyond what is absolutely necessary is thought to signal that you have something to prove, correct, or compensate for, and all three of these are viewed as signs of weakness.
Men are thinking that if they care what happens, people will think that they're weak enough to have it affect them, so men stop caring if they can and pretend they don't if they can't.
Men think that if people see that something is hard for them, then they'll think he must be weak, because surely it would be easy for a strong man.

Effort has become associated with need, not want, and need is regarded as weakness.
Struggle has become associated with weakness, not strength.
Risk has become associated with desperation, not confidence.
Ambition has become associated with the poor, not the rich.
Sacrifice is viewed as failure.

The ideal has changed from a strong man who can and does do things to a rich man who doesn't need to do anything. The apathy and idleness of the untouchable, not the "Bring it on!" braggadocio of the invincible, is what men now mimic in order to impress.
 

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A-Unit said:
People are BORN independent, for the most part, within their world. But they ARE trained to be helpless, to be needy, to follow and not lead, because it's DRILLED out of them. Knowledge is taught that it's BEYOND their comprehension. Beyond their fragile mentality. That cannot be learned or done by the average person. Too often I hear I CANNOT. NO! You can, given enough time. In the confines of forced schooling, you might not learn in 3 months, but you certainly COULD learn if you had to or wanted to. Right? If given enough passion and drive, or you were required, you would access mental faculties that would etch it right onto your brain pan.

Followers follow because they're NOT taught how to THINK, and not given sufficient information to provide contrasting sources to do so.

-------------------------


A-Unit

Spoken like a true Existentialist.
 

il_duce

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I still believe that this "lack of personal responsibility" and apathy that you speak of is nothing new in human history. It is the same thing that befell the other great empires. Rome was weakened from the inside out, because of economic problems and an impotent, self-serving governing class.

I agree that this apathy, this complacency from within our borders is somewhat new in our society, but it has been growing for decades. It is taught in our schools and broadcast daily through the media. Simply, the powers that be are force feeding the populace, basically to mold them into mindless consumer drones, in order to serve their own interests (financial, of course).

But the idea that human nature has relatively remained unchanged over the course of known history isn't cynical, imho, it's simply realist. I think there are certain facts about ourselves that we need to accept, one of which being that we are in fact animals. And we are all part of the same compost heap. ;) The second fact being that all empires must fall, and this American empire is probably on the other side of its peak by now.

I don't think of this as a pessimistic or defeatist view, it's just that...I feel the reality is, it's already too late for our culture. This "social Darwinism"...we brought it upon ourselves. Too much leeway was given to the big corporations. Now, it's plausible that they hold more power than our actual government.

There are still many Americans who understand what is going on. They see the truth, the moral decay, and the ever-growing herd mentality. But they are already in the minority. And I think that whatever chance this country actually had at reforming itself, blew it in the 60s. This apathy and lack of personal responsiblility is like a snowball effect, and will only get worse before it gets better.
 

manbearpig

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il_duce said:
I don't think of this as a pessimistic or defeatist view, it's just that...I feel the reality is, it's already too late for our culture. This "social Darwinism"...we brought it upon ourselves. Too much leeway was given to the big corporations. Now, it's plausible that they hold more power than our actual government.

There are still many Americans who understand what is going on. They see the truth, the moral decay, and the ever-growing herd mentality. But they are already in the minority. And I think that whatever chance this country actually had at reforming itself, blew it in the 60s. This apathy and lack of personal responsiblility is like a snowball effect, and will only get worse before it gets better.
I feel the same way, bro.

I think by the end of the 20th century this country will be a shell of it's former self. The balance of power will shift to Asia(they're already calling it the "Asian century"), while America's population ages, our standard of living slowly(or perhaps in the future, quickly) declines, and corruption & apathy grow. We'll basically be a factionalized cleptocracy with a wealth gap that rivals any "Third World" country. Its like the eventual Balkanization of the U.S., sadly.

Oh well I don't think we can discuss this here as its getting into "politics".
 
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