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The Fall of Civilization

Burroughs

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For those who enjoy history, here is a short recap of social changes in Rome, 2 millenia ago...never forget that history repeats :up: :

~5 century BC: Roman civilization is a a strong patriarchy, fathers are liable for the actions of their wife and children, and have absolute authority over the family (including the power of life and death)

~1 century BC: Roman civilization blossoms into the most powerful and advanced civilization in the world. Material wealth is astounding, citizens (i.e.: non slaves) do not need to work. They have running water, baths and import spices from thousands of miles away. The Romans enjoy the arts and philosophy; they know and appreciate democracy, commerce, science, human rights, animal rights, children rights and women become emancipated. No-fault divorce is enacted, and quickly becomes popular by the end of the century.

~1-2 century AD: The family unit is destroyed. Men refuse to marry and the government tries to revive marriage with a “bachelor tax”, to no avail. Children are growing up without fathers, Roman women show little interest in raising their own children and frequently use nannies. The wealth and power of women grows very fast, while men become increasingly demotivated and engage in prostitution and vice. Prostitution and homosexuality become widespread.

~3-4 century AD: A moral and demographic collapse takes place, Roman population declines due to below-replacement birth-rate. Vice and massive corruption are rampant, while the new-born Catholic Religion is gaining power (it becomes the religion of the Empire in 380 AD). There is extreme economic, political and military instability: there are 25 successive emperors in half a century (many end up assassinated), the Empire is ungovernable and on the brink of civil war.

~5 century AD: The Empire is ruled by an elite of military men that use the Emperor as a puppet; due to massive debts and financial problems, the Empire cannot afford to hire foreign mercenaries to defend itself (Roman citizens have long ago being replaced by mercenaries in the army), and starts “selling” parts of the Empire in exchange for protection. Eventually, the mercenaries figure out that the “Emperor has no clothes”, and overrun and pillage the Empire.
humanity falls back into the Bronze Age (think: eating squirrel meat and living in a cave); 12 centuries of religious zilotry (The Great Inquisition, Crusades) and intellectual darkness follow: science, commerce, philosophy, human rights become unknown concepts until they are rediscovered again during the Age of Enlightenment in 17th century AD.

Let’s examine the parallels more closely.

~5 century BC Rome = ~1700 – 1920 America. The family unit is essentially “father knows best”, and slutting around by women is considered the height of shameful behavior, (as is cadding about by men). Monogamy is held up as the ideal arrangement without exception. (The “Wild West” might be an exception to the general rule of the day, as whoring and hell-raising were widespread in the frontier.) Lessers look up to their betters as exemplars of moral rectitude.

~1 century BC Rome = ~1920 – 1970 America. America is rising to the height of her power, a hyperpower being born. An economic and military power heretofore unseen in all recorded history. While the world digs out from under the rubble of consecutive wars and Communist pogroms, we have a battalion of aircraft carriers, a largely homogeneous population, and cheap housing for everyone willing to put in an honest day’s work. But the poison pill has been swallowed; the suffrage movement achieves its main goal, and the dark shroud of the equalist era is about to descend. In academic halls and classrooms, lessers are pedestalized, while betters are denigrated.

~1-2 century AD Rome = 1970-2000 America. The scourge of single momhood, free and easy divorce, child support laws, majority female colleges, DADT repealed, gay marriage, game, etc etc ad infinitum. In short, the ultimate expression of anti-discrimination, anti-received wisdom, individualist ideology, (ironically buttressed by the groupthink of diversity mongers.) Lessers ignore their betters, who in turn renege on their traditional responsibility to act as examples for the lessers.

~3-4 century AD Rome = 2000-2010 America. (You’ll notice America’s progression through the stages of empire is much faster than was Rome’s. This is the blessing — or curse — of high tech mass communication.) The native stock of America, (specifically, the betters of that stock), have stopped having kids. Vice and corruption are on the rise. (See: Chicago, CRA, Goldman Sachs, neocon lies, Enron, Madoff… I could go on.) Economic and political instability are the order of the day. Our elections have been nailbiters since 2000, and partisanship is at a fevered pitch. A reborn religion called Islam threatens to co-opt the sympathies of Western societies’ rootless rejects and masculinized women. Except for the thinnest upper class slice, betters now ape the habits of their lessers.

~5 century Rome = present day America. America is ruled by an elite of cognitive jackpot winners who use the President as a puppet. Massive debt and financial chicanery is practically enshrined in law. The army is less and less filled with the demographic slice of American citizens that used to make up its ranks. Mercenaries (UN peacekeepers, bribed warlords, arm-twisted allies, recent unassimilated immigrants, and the desperate, poor and out of shape) now make up a larger part of the tip of the spear that projects American power. America is in the process of slow-motion selling off of the Southwest to appease the millions of peasant illegals it cavalierly allowed to invade and settle in the country.

The Fall of Rome = ? America.
 

evan12

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nice thing , but I wounder if you have any references for what you said about Rome family status
 

Scaramouche

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Dear Burroughs,
This has really caught your interest,hasn't it?....I saw that article years ago,(in the NY Times I think),since then just about every Mans site has reprinted it,sadly without any real objective insight...
Feminism is a result of decline,not the cause...This decline is sadly one of the poisonous flowers of Prosperity...It is just another levelling device that the great creator hard wired us with....
To argue this case on the History of the Roman Empire is spurious at best....After the fall of Rome,as we have discussed before,there was still left a huge and mighty Holy Roman Byzantine Empire in the East,it lasted almost a Thousand years more,and was destroyed not by Feminism,they threw their unfaithful feckless Women in the Bosphorus,but by Religion,they were finally destroyed by the Turkic Hordes,(A Southern Islamic off shoot of the Mongols),but not before being sacked and irreparably weakened by the Plundering Crusader Knights....So what was responsible for all this?.....Religious revivalism I should say,the lack of which is another popular reason for our supposed collapse....along with Zionism,dilution of the original stock,inflation,lack of fitness,poorer education,Welfare,even the the lack of nutrition in our food....Nah its all a natural progression and we are all doing disgustingly well!
 

Burroughs

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Scaramouche said:
Dear Burroughs,
This has really caught your interest,hasn't it?....I saw that article years ago,(in the NY Times I think),since then just about every Mans site has reprinted it,sadly without any real objective insight...
Feminism is a result of decline,not the cause...This decline is sadly one of the poisonous flowers of Prosperity...It is just another levelling device that the great creator hard wired us with....
To argue this case on the History of the Roman Empire is spurious at best....After the fall of Rome,as we have discussed before,there was still left a huge and mighty Holy Roman Byzantine Empire in the East,it lasted almost a Thousand years more,and was destroyed not by Feminism,they threw their unfaithful feckless Women in the Bosphorus,but by Religion,they were finally destroyed by the Turkic Hordes,but not before being sacked and irreparably weakened by the Crusadors....So who was responsible for them,Religious revivalism,the lack of which is another popular reason for our supposed collapse....along with Zionism,diluting of the original stock,inflation,lack of fitness,poorer education,even the the lack of nutrition in our food....Nah its all a natural progression and we are all doing disgustingly well!
wise words as always

Of course :up: there are numerous factors to consider...

What I want to illustrate is that the granting of feminine rights and autonomy was a precursor to downfall even centuries ago...women are not and have never been up to task of managing their lives as a whole...they need provision either given willfully by father and husband or through robbery by the state by taxation...women in the main lack the capacity to be net productive citizens...their role is and always will be helpmeet to males.
 

Boilermaker

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Red ink in black doesn't really go well.

Just so you know.
 

taiyuu_otoko

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Burroughs said:
..women are not and have never been up to task of managing their lives as a whole...they need provision either given willfully by father and husband or through robbery by the state by taxation..

Just be careful how you word this in public, if you do.

Plenty of individual women can easily hold their own against any of the vast slouches of unmotivated humanity.

But as a whole, women have always been dependent on the collective wealth building nature of men.

Kind of like me saying "men are taller than women" while knowing that plenty of women are taller than me.

One thing that women are better at than men is collective bargaining/swarm behavior.

One whiff of your above stated, self evident description of the nature of women will quickly land you in hot water with ALL women, whether or not they can individually count themselves among the productive minority.

But as Scara said, the mass clutches of humanity is one big ball of unconscious confusion rolling endlessly into the future, getting better and better as it moves along.

As Jesse Livermore once said,

"Don't fight the tape..."

Or maybe Sun Tzu:

"Understand your enemy as yourself. One hundred battles, one hundred victories."
 

Poonani Maker

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EastWind

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Ok, guys, seriously, cite sources. This is getting ridiculous. I know we're not a scientific forum, but you can't just post something like this and expect it to fly as truth.

Note that I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying you lose a lot of credibility by posting something like this - that looks almost like a statement of facts. At least, you do with me. But the point where you stop citing sources and just stating random things that help your cause is where you drop into full-blown whaco conspiracy theory crafting.

I'll say it again: you're probably right on a lot of things. But the decline of Roman society (and, if it comes to pass, that of the US) undoubtedly have a number of socio-economic reasons. As Scaramouche stated, the Byzantine empire cracked down heavily on "feminism" and that didn't help them.

As a rather well-read relative of mine pointed out, it seems that western societies follow a repetitive pattern of "globalization" followed by "collapse back to nationalism". This can be observed in WW I & II. We fight, everybody starts in the dirt and helps each other until a select few have built up something huge for themselves, at which point they start walling it off. When the disparity gets too big, we have a revolution, the common citizens tear everything down and we start again. The cycles are accelerating - used to be 150 years, give or take. The last period of globalization ended with WW II and it's only been 60 years.

Anyway, that's his theory.

I really believe it's more complex than just "we give the vote to women => society collapses". Sure, that might be one bit of it. But history and society are extremely complex.
 

Scaramouche

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Dear East Wind,
It really is very difficult to quote sources in a matter like this,the original and the quoted reply was good enough for the NY Times that's reputable enough for most of us....Anyhow if the learned Burroughs is still perusing the site,what are you reading these Days?....I have just enjoyed "The Crystal Sun" by Robert Temple....very interesting,conjectural,but fascinating!
 
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