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The dismal state of dating etiquette (beaten to death I'm sure, but gotta rant...)

DelayedGratification

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So I never really did much "dating" per se, as when I was in HS and College, both were rural areas so traditional dating wasn't really a thing for me. Post-grad, it was more a matter of relationships growing from peer groups in the activities in which I participated.

Now I'm a 50-something divorcee in this brave new world.

I've spent some time with Tinder and Bumble, and yes, that's probably my first mistake. Finding the right profile photos and adjusting profile text has me risen from batting zero to a slow (and often bursty) match rate. This is likely due to the demographic for which I tend to swipe right not being in sync with my own demographic, but I'm not going to swipe right on someone I'm simply not attracted to. Rather weed out early than late.

But it amazes me:
  • You get a match, and they do not message. Or if you message, they do not respond. So why did they swipe right in the first place? (I've seen this complaint from women too)
  • Women claim to not want a pen-pal, but yet themselves message endlessly without getting to the point of setting something up.
  • The flip side: an exchange or two, then dead air.
  • With all this ghosting and dead-air, nobody bothers to just un-match and be done with it.
  • In the post-wall crowd, they all want relationships and they all want it yesterday. Uhhhh... doesn't really work that way, can we be reasonable please?
  • Sometimes you'll get a match but then a vibe that you're stalking them. This usually starts early, so I'm pretty sure it's not me coming off as a creep. But I sit there and think, "Hey, biotch, you matched *me*!"
  • Posting their IG handles, which makes me assume they want to DM over there rather than the dating app. Maybe it's me, but I'm not sure what that does other than make things more complicated.
Then there's the combination. I recently got a match, sent a witty opener on Tinder, then DM her IG with the same opener but also commenting that we matched on Tinder. Suddenly I look "sketchy". Ummm... you matched me in the first place babe....

Then there's the high IL but then nothing. This week I got a nearby Tinder match who actually wanted to skip straight to a date rather than endlessly text. Great, awesome, let's do it. We got as far as setting up dinner the next night and a place. When trying to nail down a time... ghost.

I need to practice Day Game...
 

Who Dares Win

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90% of online dating is not about game or skills, its just your profile picture.

The moment she see that picture she already knows if she is gonna match, talk, settle the date and show to the place all the way till a nearby hotel.

Even those girls who are there fishing for compliments, seeking attention, show off to their friends or fight boredom would have no problem to make it work as long as the guy is good looking enough.

This is what men wont tell you nor accept, you dont get rich telling guys to get in shape if you cant sell them tricks, also most men cant deal with the fact that they cant do anything about something, we all like to think that given enough commitment we can do everything.

An ugly guy cant score tinder dates as much as a black guy cant make a white kid no matter the effort.

The right moves allow you follow your right path but cant create a path where there is none.
 

DelayedGratification

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90% of online dating is not about game or skills, its just your profile picture.

The moment she see that picture she already knows if she is gonna match, talk, settle the date and show to the place all the way till a nearby hotel.
Yeah, no argument there. And that works both ways. Which is why women become experts at false advertising with doctored pics, overly-flattering angles, no full-body shots, etc. Been bit by that several times but am now wiser.

And to use Rollo's term, OLD is so buffered that it takes a lot of control away from the guy (and the girl for that matter). I'm still getting it through my thick skull but eventually I'll tire of it sufficiently that I'll find a way to make the time, space, and place to work on Day Game. The demographics in my locale are not in my favor unfortunately, which not only affects OLD but Day Game even more.

All that said... These women have seen my pic, and they match anyway. Yet the follow-through is a train-wreck, and so buffered that all you can do is watch a whole-lot-of-nothing happen with women who allegedly had enough IL to swipe right.

I never swipe right without intent to follow through if matched.
 

Who Dares Win

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Yeah, no argument there. And that works both ways. Which is why women become experts at false advertising with doctored pics, overly-flattering angles, no full-body shots, etc. Been bit by that several times but am now wiser.

And to use Rollo's term, OLD is so buffered that it takes a lot of control away from the guy (and the girl for that matter). I'm still getting it through my thick skull but eventually I'll tire of it sufficiently that I'll find a way to make the time, space, and place to work on Day Game. The demographics in my locale are not in my favor unfortunately, which not only affects OLD but Day Game even more.

All that said... These women have seen my pic, and they match anyway. Yet the follow-through is a train-wreck, and so buffered that all you can do is watch a whole-lot-of-nothing happen with women who allegedly had enough IL to swipe right.

I never swipe right without intent to follow through if matched.
Thats because you go for shopping and you buy the product that fits your purpose, women start putting staff on the cart and then removing it once something better comes along shelf after shelf till they reach the counter.

You go to buy precisely what you want or leave, they just go shopping and get the best they can find.
 

DelayedGratification

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Thats because you go for shopping and you buy the product that fits your purpose, women start putting staff on the cart and then removing it once something better comes along shelf after shelf till they reach the counter.

You go to buy precisely what you want or leave, they just go shopping and get the best they can find.
Seems as reasonable an explanation as any...
 

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Bible_Belt

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I can tell from your attitude that you are just setting yourself up for misery. Stop being so logical. The Book of Pook would be a good start, making the point that emotions rule the day, not logic.

Women are illogical, especially in regard to the decisions they make regarding men. Fighting that concept is like beating your head against a rock.
 

Reyaj

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It all comes down to whether she finds your look attractive. Unfortunately even if she does she's got a flood of other messages from other guys as well. The current dating scene is quite sad folks..
 

Newbee2

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Understand ( the paradox of choice ). Human psychology. Too much choice and we can't make decisions, and end up with nothing. They made a simple jam experiment in a store, more than 7 different types of jam, and people stop buying.

Dating sites / bar's disco's etc. Suffer from this.. and is too superfischal.. if you are not above avarage, extroverted, full of hoodspa

If you are looking for LTR, you need to use time for her to build trust, emotions and attraction..

Scout around to find someone who you feel you have a good connection with, coffee shop's, shop's, dinner places, tennis club, leasure activities, or what ever... find a reason to go there regularly, and move slow.. make her feel secure, and ask simple question to make her talk to you.

Modern day game works too fast for many people. And the success rate is very very low, LTR wise... sure getting laid is no problem once you understand what's make them tick. But the good woman in the 40-50's don't hang around in the bars.. dating sites is a sure way to loose your own confidence.

Women needs time to build trust and emotions, that's why dating sites fail's.. the bars will get you STD's not LTR's

Sure put on a suit, go to the ATM get 5000 usd in 100 bill's and go out and get you some of that..

Likewise a pictures of you washing a ferrari in the in a manson's driveway, or you sailing a yatch.. eating in expensive restaurants will give you dates on dating sites..

100% bull, but it works even though you are average looking. that's only using hypergamy in your favor..

Again that's a way of getting laid, but it's game playing.

No nonsens people have a hard time in this day and age.. because most things is pure bull
 

Wrenched

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I had the same problem when I first tried the single sites. When she called you sketchy she was testing you to see how you would react. A good response would have been "That's why I messaged you! I thought we could look sketchy together"
 

Die Hard

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I've experienced the same thing, Delayed Gratification.

Tried different approaches on how to deal with it, but it was useless. Sometimes I did have succes, but it required a lot of investment, a lot of patience, a lot of energy. You have to put energy into every new girl but you succeed with only 1 out of 100 cases. So it's just not worth it, the process will drain you of your energy and make you feel miserable.

In the end, I decided to remove the app. Kinda feels like giving up, as if admitting that I don't have what it takes to be succesful. But enough is enough, I'm done with that shyt.
 

DelayedGratification

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I've experienced the same thing, Delayed Gratification.

Tried different approaches on how to deal with it, but it was useless. Sometimes I did have succes, but it required a lot of investment, a lot of patience, a lot of energy. You have to put energy into every new girl but you succeed with only 1 out of 100 cases. So it's just not worth it, the process will drain you of your energy and make you feel miserable.

In the end, I decided to remove the app. Kinda feels like giving up, as if admitting that I don't have what it takes to be succesful. But enough is enough, I'm done with that shyt.
Yeah, I think the energy drain is really what has me getting turned off. Between the per-girl investment you describe, the endorphin rollercoaster of the feast-or-famine dynamic of getting matches (sometimes my phone is blowing up, sometimes days go by with nothing), and the frustration of having your hands tied when the match just goes dead on you... Ugh. I'm also getting to the "don't need this shyt" point.

Being drained of my energy and confidence certainly does nothing for my SMV, that's for sure.
 

oldmanofthesea

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OLD is fine for after you learn game in-person first, and if it's not your primary means of finding dates. Otherwise OLD will lower your perceived value which will lower your game. OLD benefits women the most. The only exception to all this is if you are a solid 8+.

Girls don't respond after matching because:
- More than 60% have never been on a date from OLD. They are just there for validation and boredom and to have a laugh with their GFs. For many single lonely women, just knowing they could get a lot of good looking guys (without actually going through with it) is enough to satisfy their urges.
- She found someone she liked better
- Fake profile

Your comment about girl's not "getting to the point of setting up a date" makes me wonder: Are you making sure that YOU are the one initiating that inquiry? Because you can't expect the girl to. 95% will pen pal you until either you ask them out or they lose interest, whichever comes first.

RE IG handles in profiles, you are assuming they want you to DM them there, but most women don't want that and it does seem sketchy to do that. They put their IG in their profile because it allows you to see more of their pictures and get a better view of their life (or more accurately: how they want to portray their life to others). And because many women want more IG followers/orbiters.

When you match with a girl, ask her a question that has to do with something you observed in her photos. Something unique. Something SHORT. But don't try too hard. It's even better if the thing is funny or better-yet, a little teasing in nature. Don't worry about offending her (but don't be crude or really mean, just playfully teasing), because most guys are too nice and worry too much about that. This will make you stand out from the weak people pleasers she is inundated with. NEVER double message, ever. Try to focus on witty banter for maybe a few back and forth texts and then tell her you have to run but would like to meet her for a drink at x day/time/place. If she says she wants to get to know you more online first, eject immediately. That's a girl who has zero intention of ever meeting you. You get to know them F2F. We are grown adults here, Christ! Mirror her effort level in messages. Don't keep talking if she seems disinterested. In fact, the more disinterested she seems, the more biting, teasing, and short your messages should be, but never truly mean. Really disinterested girls will not meet you, cannot have their IL increased by you, and ate only looking to be entertained as part of their quest for validation.

On average, from my time on Bumble, I'd say I got responses from 60% of my matches, and of those, 75% turned into a date that actually happened.

Your profile should say nothing about you. Tell your story in the pics. The profile should simply say what you are looking for in a woman and put VERY little effort in it, and don't say what you THINK women want to hear or it will look like you are trying too hard. Your pics should tell the story of a confident, fun, humorous good looking guy with a very active social life that includes female friends and who hopefully isn't basic AF.

OLD is very transactional and a numbers game. It's a lot like I imagine speed dating to be like, only even less personal. A female friend of mine got on OLD after YEARS of being single and immediately, countless hundreds of guys of all types were throwing themselves at her. She's cute but not that cute. Maybe a 5-6. Her experience was very different from mine on OLD! I had to WORK for it on there, and the matches I would get were much less attractive than 90% of the girls I could pick up in person. Maybe 1:20 matches would be with a girl I was very attracted to after meeting in person, but all those ended up being totally ****ing crazy (go figure). My main point here is that girls do much better on OLD than guys, and they have more options than guys, so you will match mostly with meh women which will lower your confidence. If your confidence is super high and unshakable, then you can use OLD to scrape up those 1:20 hot girls (ignoring the many gross ones), but don't expect much out of them beyond a hookup or two.
 

sazc

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Yes, for fvcks sake, as the dude, please make the move and ask her if she wants to meet. Women look for a go getter, they don't want to lead. If the messaging is good, ask for the meet.
 

DelayedGratification

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All good advice, a lot of which I'm already doing. Good to know on the IG, I'll stop DM'ing. I've also gotten to the point where I am pretty good at texting strategy (no double-texting, being unpredictable, mirroring her cadence, etc).

And yes, I'm increasingly making the move early to meet. Texting too long just increases emotional investment in a situation that might have texting chemistry but not physical chemistry. If there's no physical chemistry I'd rather not have invested in the texting chemistry.

The failure last week was an almost immediate let's-meetup without much texting. We got to the point where we had a day, a place, but hadn't nailed down a time. When I suggested 8:00, I got ghosted.

My current prospect quickly got to the point of day, place, and time, but the morning-of she claimed to come down with a stomach bug. She was apologetic and offered her phone number for texting in the meantime. I opted (without comment) to ignore the number, as I'm learning that I'd rather not give out my own number until after we meet and determined that there's chemistry. In the meantime she's been blowing up my phone via OKC messaging and the falling-ill excuse appears to be holding together, enough to give her the benefit of the doubt. Problem is I don't have any free days until Thursday night, which means there will be a lot of texting investment, which per the above I'm now considering to be a liability.

We'll see...
 

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IKO69

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Can't say I have much experience with those things....I can see where apps and such would be largely a waste of time. Seems like a complete waste of time because there is no personal growth involved (it's too easy is what i'm saying. and if it's too easy, the reward can't be great.)
 

ubercat

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I'm in your demographic mate. Must admit last time I tried old in 2015 be it did look post apocalyptic to what it used to be.

Paid sites are a little bit better. Still mainly low quality but they have jobs and just the normal range of issues compared to whole lotta crazy.

I d say treat it as a supplement and a training ground. Get out there socially. And then when you have time check your inbox. That will make your replies much more random which weirdly will get you better results. and it will improve your text game but don't do too much of it. hot and cold is the best way to treat them just like they treat us.

And early dating is a war. after 10 dates or 3 months a girl will generally want the talk and at that stage you have the option of a girlfriend if you want it.

And in terms of eating that frog, cold approach is what builds a DJ whether or not you ever get any results from it. Chat up waitresses the girl at the bus stop the checkout Chicks at supermarket you name it. Read through the the DJ Bible and try the techniques. After a bit of paint by numbers your start coming up with your own stuff more likely just to add to whatever you already had. And then you're all geared up for the steady supply of dates you will get.
 
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Espi

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I need to practice Day Game...
There's no such thing as "Day Game."

Stop blaming the Internet for your failures. In my opinion, 99.999999999% of the women you intend to meet in the daylight hours are likely subscribed to an online dating site.

You need to allow yourself to fail and to always take the blame for it. Rejections, ghostings, and flakings are GOOD things. This is how DJs are born. You learn from these failures and you can prove to yourself that you are resilent and persistent enough to succeed with these biatches, no matter how you meet them or how many times they reject you.
 
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Espi

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Can't say I have much experience with those things....I can see where apps and such would be largely a waste of time. Seems like a complete waste of time because there is no personal growth involved (it's too easy is what i'm saying. and if it's too easy, the reward can't be great.)
You have little OLD experience yet you advise that it's a waste of time because it's "too easy"?

How often did you succeed and fail via OLD before arriving at such a conclusion?

From a guy with LOTS of online dating experience:

--It is NEVER easy, though I would LOVE it to be.

--The "personal growth" (as you call it) occurs AFTER they agree to meet me, i.e. the face to face part of it (though getting them to meet is NOT easy, either, which is why guys give up).

If it truly easy, though, I suspect that you, and many more millions, would be subscribed.
 

DelayedGratification

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There's no such thing as "Day Game."

Stop blaming the Internet for your failures. In my opinion, 99.999999999% of the women you intend to meet in the daylight hours are likely subscribed to an online dating site.

You need to allow yourself to fail and to always take the blame for it. Rejections, ghostings, and flakings are GOOD things. This is how DJs are born. You learn from these failures and you can prove to yourself that you are resilent and persistent enough to succeed with these biatches, no matter how you meet them or how many times they reject you.
The difference between Day Game (and yeah, it is a thing, just a matter of definition) and online dating (to quote Rollo), is Buffer. Without a buffer, a woman will react in some readable way to a cold approach. And there is a lot more to be learned from that then the inscrutable silence that happens all too often in online dating.

So I'm not blaming the Internet, that's a strawman you created, not me. It's just another part of the learning curve, and I'm merely beginning to wonder if it's a good use of my time and effort at this point in my learning curve, because there is opportunity cost involved.
 
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