Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

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The counseling profession and their mindgames.

jophil28

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Here is the short version of a recent 'event' -

Been dating HB7 for a while now - almost a year. Good woman, conventional morals, mainly respectful but a tad avoidant and passive. She thinks that I am a "loveable assh0le" - perfect !
Anyways she tells me a month ago that she "needs to see someone" about her relationship with her overbearing sister and some unfinished business with her Dad.
SO she goes to the Business Pages and finds a clinical psychologist who agrees to see her. Lets call the psych Leanne. Leanne apparently is a feminist and a liberal. My spidey senses go on alert.
HB attends two sessions and hits the booze for an hour or so directly after each session.
I am seeing yellow flags waving. She also mentioned that her relationship with me is of particular interest to Leanne.

Two days ago she attended her third session.
We go out to eat afterwards and she says, " Jophil, Leanne said that I might need up to FOUR men in my life to fully meet my needs."
MY alarm bells ring loudly so I politely excuse myself and take a trip to the bathroom.

So I quickly figure it out. She has turned her sessions with Leanne into a bytche fest and Leanne is contaminating the interaction with her own agenda.. Another dimwitted counselor forcing one of her faddish ideas into the mind of a vulnerable client.

Back in the day before I joined SS , I would have asked HB to explain in detail what is going on with Leanne . I would have debated every tiny sliver of information about what 'advice' Leanne is stuffing into HB . I would have tried to 'reason' with HB and assure her that what liberal Leanne is proposing is some fashionable crap from the loonie left of feminism.

In effect, Leanne was telling HB that she is 'the Prize' and that her relationship needs are so extensive and so exquisite that one mere male (me) could not possibly satisfy them all. Therefore, HB should seek other men to 'attend ' to her as well .

So I return to my seat across the table from HB and say," HB, so Leanne suggest that you might need three other men to fulfil you and satisfy all your needs? "

HB," Yes. that is what she suggested that I look at."

Jophil," So you will have vacancies for three other men."

HB, " Err, I guess. "

Jophil (stands up ), " You have that number all wrong - you have FOUR vacancies now."

The look on her face was priceless. Eyes as big as as dinner plates and a jaw drop that almost wrecked her dental work.

I walked to my car and drove away. The first thing I thought of was this forum.

MY phone is melting down with incoming from her.

I expect a visit from HB any time now.
 
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Jitterbug

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/takes hat off.

Top respect to you, Sir.

One thing I've learned (mostly indirectly) from reading this forum is that there is no negotiating with crazy women or women who even entertain crazy ideas (such as in your situation). To me, that's an immediate "see ya, have a nice life!" as I walk away.
 

Luthor Rex

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Jitterbug said:
One thing I've learned (mostly indirectly) from reading this forum is that there is no negotiating with crazy women or women who even entertain crazy ideas (such as in your situation). To me, that's an immediate "see ya, have a nice life!" as I walk away.
You make a good point about a red flag I've had a bad habit of looking over in the past: when a woman even entertains a crazy idea, she needs to be let go. If she even thinks about it, she needs to be let go.
 

Scaramouche

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Dear Jophil,
Sorry but I don't buy her story,if indeed she did see see a trick cyclist,it wasn't because of her family,they faded into insignificance the day she met you.With 95% of Women if they are not on the money Machine they are on the power machine,the other 5%?well a few are nymphomaniacs.....I have no doubt but that the biggest problem on this Ladies mind would have been you...perhaps this is her way of asking for an open relationship....Anyway,since when did a rabid feminist advocate a Woman finding more Male lovers?No that's not their style....any which ways,you did the right thing,I hope she wasn't your dance partner,finding a F.B. is easy but a Dance partner is a rarus avis indeed.
 

zekko

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Jophil, you're an older guy on here like I am, and I notice you give a lot of seriously good advice, so I trust your judgement. But I can't help but wonder if you didn't pull the trigger just a bit fast here. She didn't say she was going to FOLLOW these mad instructions from her therapist, did she? I might have said something to the effect of stop seeing that quack or I'm out of here, but your way was definitely more dramatic. And like I said, I trust your judgement.

Were you seeing her exclusively then? If not, I'm not sure why it matters if she saw other men, unless you expect multiple women to be exclusive to YOU while you play the field, which would be very interesting also.

I think we have some therapists on this forum and I mean them no disrespect, but I have very little use for counseling. When I was getting close to my divorce, my wife wanted to try marriage counseling first, and I swear it made things worse. We actually tried two different counselers. The first one was a woman who basically sided with her on everything and tried to set up as her project how she could completely change me. The second took a more fair approach but it seemed like talking about everything did nothing but stir up the hornet's nest with no way to settle it. But in the end we did get divorced, and by that time it was okay with me anyway.
 

Trader

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zekko said:
Jophil, you're an older guy on here like I am, and I notice you give a lot of seriously good advice, so I trust your judgement. But I can't help but wonder if you didn't pull the trigger just a bit fast here. She didn't say she was going to FOLLOW these mad instructions from her therapist, did she? I might have said something to the effect of stop seeing that quack or I'm out of here, but your way was definitely more dramatic. And like I said, I trust your judgement.

Were you seeing her exclusively then? If not, I'm not sure why it matters if she saw other men, unless you expect multiple women to be exclusive to YOU while you play the field, which would be very interesting also.
True - she didn't say she was going to follow those instructions from the therapist but the fact that she was even seriously entertaining those ideas - that is a red flag.

Jophil had the balls to pull this move - now he has clear control of the frame. Think of it as one massive test he is giving the girl. The key is to see how she reacts to this.

Besides, think of this as a matter of self-respect. What man would tolerate his girl DIRECTLY saying to him: 'Oh maybe I should consider having 3 other guys in addition to you.' Not in my world.
 

guru1000

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zekko said:
Jophil, you're an older guy on here like I am, and I notice you give a lot of seriously good advice, so I trust your judgement. But I can't help but wonder if you didn't pull the trigger just a bit fast here.
On the surface, it may appear that way. Looking a little deeper, he is establishing a covert boundary in an overt manner. You better believe she will think twice before giving JoPhil any sh*tty behavior in the future.

Jophil establishes the boundary at the first inch of disrespect and that is what MUST be done. If you do not address unwarranted cues, better believe you are moments away of losing the frame and KNOW future disrespectful behavior will be inevitable.
 

Julius_Seizeher

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John Wayne is indeed still alive, and masquerading as a guy called Jophil on the internet.

By the mere virtue of the fact that she would bring up such a ridiculous idea, Jophils' actions were perfect.
 

jophil28

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Thanks for the support here guys.

Yes, it may appear that I pulled the trigger 'too early'... but in the few minutes in the bathroom that I was processing what her counselor was suggesting, I was running the situation through the MM filter. I had apparently internalised the "walk away at disrespect " strategy to such an extent that it became my default response.

I just leapfrogged all the standard male responses which would have seen me sit there listening to her list of petty grievances (which BTW she had never raised with me ).
There was no "open communication" by me in that restaurant because HB had chosen to keep any complaints about me a secret until she could blab to a stranger. I have no clue about what she said to Leanne. However I do care that she told her first and kept it all from me.
AS some of you have pointed out, it is intolerable that HB would even float the idea by me.
I was triggered to walk away because I was stunned by the prospect of HB recruiting THREE more guys to "fulfil all her needs " . This 'solution' was offered in all seriousness by a professional . A prefect example of the idiotic faddish advice being delivered to women by other women in the 'helping profession'.

I joined this place in late 2006 after a year long roller coaster with a woman with strong BPD traits who was a master mindfvcker. It took me at least two years to recover from the injuries of that experience and along the way I had to slowly replace a lot of my beliefs and prepare myself for action in case another crazy came into my life.
MY current G/F (HB7) is NOT a crazy woman. She has not demonstrated any BPD or HPD traits or behavior, however she has crossed the line here in a few ways that I find unacceptable. I am not willing to endlessly discuss these with her. Discussion with a woman about her blunders is never successful in my experience.
I knew at the time that Leanne had poisoned her mind against me and I was not going to play into that game by engaging HB in discussion.

And I certainly was NEVER going to allow a situation to take root in which HB created a fan club for herself in which I was merely the founding member.
 

jophil28

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Update- HB calls me an hour ago (after about a dozen texts from her which I ignored) and I pick up.
Since the restaurant drama, I have had about 40 hours to think it through.
MY Mil training kicked in and i was indeed prepared for a counter assault. The second assault is a tougher battle because both sides know about the other's strengths,weaknesses and resources..

Here is the abbreviated version of our convo..

HB, "Jophil I know that you are upset...can we talk ?"

Jophil," About what ?" ( I draw her out into the open)

HB, " That suggestion that I needed three other men was just an idea that Leanne floated past me. WE were not really serious."

Jophil," Look I am due to be someplace else in a half hour but I thought about your suggestion and I think that it is a great idea. "

HB, " HUH ! "

Jophil, " Next time you talk to Leanne, thank her for giving me a great idea. I plan to find another three women to fulfil all my needs. I have alloted you the 'sex slave' position. Gotta run...."

Click.
 

zekko

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So have you 'nexted' her, Jophil? It almost seems that way.
The problem with being so rough on her is that she may not feel comfortable discussing difficult issues with you in the future because then you may just run out on her. In fact, maybe this is one reason she discussed whatever it is with her therapist instead of you. You might not find out that there is an issue until it's too late if she doesn't feel she can talk to you openly.

On the other hand, not addressing the disrespect is dangerous also, even though I do agree that she was probably never seriously considering following through on the idea.

I'm almost a little surprised so many here were upset with the idea of her having three other men. Wouldn't this just be spinning plates? If we can do it, why can't they? Make no mistake, I wouldn't put up with it. But I thought a lot of people here were more "open minded" than I was.
Or was she exclusive with you, Jophil?
 

Splendidostring

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Zekko :

MY current G/F (HB7) is NOT a crazy woman.
It's a LTR apparently.

Based on this, I totally agree with his reaction ...

Female version of swinging plates : To get a couple of morons to listen to her talk about emotional stuff he doesn't care about ...only of the 4 is actually gonna hit the bucket ...sad.

Male version : let's get puzzy!!!!!
 

Veridin

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Well done, Jophil.

When confronted with feminist crap from a girl, be a rock. Don't let the girl get to you; don't throw out insults, which will play into her feminist authority's teachings. But don't budge an inch either. Know your value and say no. No, to all they say to you that is clearly feminist-derived. Show that you are willing to talk, but as equals, not as accuser and suspect.

As for flakes, they will throw anything at you to see what sticks. And they love the fight. It is their way of relieving the pressure they have inside. You can't argue with them, especially since they don't believe half of what they say - never make the mistake that they are being as honest as you are. Just say no, and leave if needed. It is the only thing that helps. I have great experience from this.

I used to go out with a girl who foolishly took a class in "women's studies"; she actually didn't know what it was when she signed up, she was naive. She tried some of it on me, to see what would stick, when we had arguments. She would say, "You are so patriarchal!" I called her on it immediately. I told her, "You cannot use that word against me." I told her again after the argument when things were calm. She only tried it twice.

The class was difficult for her to handle, since she had little intellectual influences from elsewhere. She was drinking it up. Hard to combine with a boyfriend like me. She said once, "Maybe I have to be a feminist!"
"No you don't have to," I said. "Why should you?"
"Because I am a woman. I should be loyal to women."
"Does that mean a worker has to be a communist? They claim to speak for workers but they don't. Feminists claim to speak for women but they don't. They celebrate increasing divorce rates as a good thing. Don't let them decide who speaks for who. They lead unhappy lives and they want you to be miserable too. Be with me instead."

Just throwing out some experiences there, maybe someone can learn something.

As for psychologists: they have to go to therapy themselves throughout their studies, because most of them are mental cases themselves. Mental cases are drawn to psychology like moths to a flame. I talked to a girl who studied psychology, and she said more than 2/3 of her class were head cases.


There is some good therapy today. The kind that simply tries to strengthen people, and doesn't deal with the unproven, sick fantasies Freud dreamed up. Note that there is no evidence that a single patient of Freud was ever cured. Instead they had to come back to him year after year; the "Wolfman" who Freud writes about so much, went to therapy with Freud for eight years. Freudian "psychology" only makes people feel dirtier than when they got there, and lowers their self-esteem, and hurts their relationship with their parents by claiming that they want to kill their fathers and rape their mothers etc. The Freudian psychiatrist digs up little details in the patient's childhood and claims they mean this or that, totally wild stuff. Like, Freud claimed Leonardo da Vinci must have been a homosexual because Leonardo da Vinci wrote in his diary about a dream of a bird with long tail feathers. (Must be a symbol for a penis, Freud said.)

Like I said, there is better therapy today. Just avoid the Freudians, which are mostly gone now, at least in Western Europe. Modern therapy is more reasonable and realizes that biology, body chemistry shaped by DNA, is a strong factor that can't be cured, only dealt with. Compare this with how you improve your strength: a good mentor teaches how to improve your arm strength through push-ups, and doesn't spend years trying to find out how your arms got weak in the first place.



Now, about that therapist that Jophil encountered. There is a form of therapy for alcoholics where the therapist blames everything on the spouse. They convince the alcoholics that their spouses are to blame, and that they need to get a divorce. The alcoholics get rid of all guilt this way and feel much better. They happily pay the bill and recommend the therapist. But their marriages are ruined.

This is not confined to therapy for alcoholics. It is a dirty trick that some therapists use: blame the spouse for everything. Ruin a marriage, but give the patient a happy smile by making him think nothing is his fault.

I wonder if people aren't better off visiting forums about relationship issues instead. Or, I don't know - talk to a friend?
 

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Julius_Seizeher

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We all know there are good and bad apples in every bunch.

But the point I am seeing again and again, is that women simply don't run any business worth a fvck. Whether she's a counselor or, say, the owner of a manufacturing facility or the wife of a lumberyard owner, the song remains the same.

They do whatever the fvck they want, they can't lead, and I have seen women pillage the capital of a business faster than piranhas on a steak. I have twice lost a job due to my employers' demise as a direct result of the women being involved!

They are like kids with car keys.

This is not to say that I hate women. But I think that men in the past had it better with them, because they knew things we have forgotten along the way.
 

Desert Fox

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I love personal stories of DJs in action like this one.

Amazing response and counter-response.

This is a hard one to top...awesome.
 

jophil28

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zekko said:
So have you 'nexted' her, Jophil? It almost seems that way.
The problem with being so rough on her is that she may not feel comfortable discussing difficult issues with you in the future because then you may just run out on her. In fact, maybe this is one reason she discussed whatever it is with her therapist instead of you. You might not find out that there is an issue until it's too late if she doesn't feel she can talk to you openly.
No, Zekko I have not nexted her. She is entitled to an opportunity to earn her previous place with me.
Your point about being "rough on her" is noted. However I did not run out because she raised some difficult issues. I walked away because I was being manipulated into surrendering the frame to her after Leftie Leanne coached her from the shadows.

However, at the moment, she is dealing with the reality that the scam that she and her Psych concocted has backfired. They hoped to reduce me to a pleading, grovelling chump who trembled at the prospect of having to compete for her intimacy with three other guys.
I refused to play into this, and withdrew what she values most - my affection and attention. I cut her loose, and I did it for several reasons.

Firstly, she had an obligation to discuss her concerns with me firstly rather that go behind my back. I have little time for the argument that she might not have felt "comfortable" - it was her obligation to talk to me first. I have mentioned to her previously that blabbing to strangers about personal details will never wash with me.

Secondly, I resent the fact that she insulted me and disrespected our relationship by unloading to a stranger - and a feminist at that.

Thirdly, running to a Psych on some pretext that she had "issues with her sister" annoyed me even more.

I will consider any approaches by her and I will listen to what she has to say, BUT I intend to make it blindingly clear that the "three other guys" tactic has placed her MUCH lower down the totem pole than she was before she sought counseling.
 
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zekko

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Your point about being "rough on her" is noted. However I did not run out because she raised some difficult issues. I walked away because I was being manipulated into surrendering the frame to her after Leftie Leanne coached her from the shadows.
Well, I do think you were a bit rough on her, especially when she called to try to explain, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. As I said, your advice is generally rock solid so I suppose you know what you are doing. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think you may be right in your approach after all. I know if my LTR even brought up the idea of seeing a therapist (let alone bringing in other guys) I would have alarm bells going off in my head all over the place.

It's just that for myself, I prefer to be a little more direct in my communication. I would most likely lay out specifically what I found unacceptable and take it from there. Your "stealing the frame" response may well be more effective though, and it probably gives her some drama to enjoy as well.

I also agree with the previous poster who said psychologists are usually crazy themselves. I've run into more than a few of them in my profession, and all of them have been bat sh!t crazy. I'm sure there are some good ones out there, but I haven't met them.
 

jonwon

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You did the right thing Jo.

This was the wrong answer:

"Jophil," So you will have vacancies for three other men."

HB, " Err, I guess. "


What she should have said is: I dont have eyes for anyone else, I'm thinking about seeing another shrink.

Instead she fed you that line, no matter the reasoning, dating speel or to try to reel you in or fish for attention, that response deserves no other outcome.
 
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