The Brotherhood of Iron

[CarlitosWay]

For all the bodybuilding fans who visit this thread...Take a look here at Kai Greene's new training documentary. The whole first part is here run time around 22 minutes. Very intense and philosophical.

ENJOY
http://videos.bodybuilding.com/watch/58031/kai-greene-a-new-breed-vol-1-overkill

 

[CarlitosWay]

The 2nd guy was doing half squats.

LOLOL are you serious? I'd call those parallel and cause of his stance if he went any deeper he would fall on his ass or do what that first guy was doing....which is asking for an INJURY.

Do you know even know who Justin Harris is? He holds many degrees in regards to human anatomy/physiology. Has powerlifted an elite total. Has won a super heavyweight bodybuilding title. Started and owns a successful nutrition and diet/bodybuilding consultation company.......lol the irony.

 

[Drum&Bass]

Powerlifters DO squat at full depth. When you take a wider stance it is impossible to squat butt to calves because the hamstrings dont allow you to go any lower than parallel.

In a closer stance squat your butt can touch your calves because you will be able to fully close the legs and use your hips as a resting support.

Both of theses squats are different depth but both of these squats are as low as physically possible.

 

[EFFORT]

Started and owns a successful nutrition and diet/bodybuilding consultation company.....

+1 for http://www.troponinnutrition.com/ .... I'm currently be trained by him and shelby right now, they REALLY know there stuff.

 

[CarlitosWay]

+1 for http://www.troponinnutrition.com/ .... I'm currently be trained by him and shelby right now, they REALLY know there stuff.

Good stuff man. I train in the same gym show in that vid where Justin Harris is squatting. He used to frequent it a lot, but not so much anymore. Heard he's trying to sell the company or something. Yet, yeah they're awesome and if I could afford it right now, they would definitely be the first people I would call :rockon:

Powerlifters DO squat at full depth. When you take a wider stance it is impossible to squat butt to calves because the hamstrings dont allow you to go any lower than parallel.

In a closer stance squat your butt can touch your calves because you will be able to fully close the legs and use your hips as a resting support.

Both of theses squats are different depth but both of these squats are as low as physically possible.

Thanks for clarifying and describing what I was trying to get across, done a bit more eloquently though ha.

ugh but I can't imagine with a heavy load it being too healthy for the lumbar area if one were to get as deep as shown in the second picture, especially with that area tucking like that.

 

[Quagmire911]

+1 for http://www.troponinnutrition.com/ .... I'm currently be trained by him and shelby right now, they REALLY know there stuff.

Sweet. I like to follow Shelby's articles.

And the Harris squats weren't buried, but they weren't half squats either. 500x16 at that depth is pretty sweet. Some people just do better staying higher, everyone is different. Maybe he couldn't give a rats a** what depth it was.

Carlitos, I'd really recommend hitting ab wheel rollouts. If you don't have a wheel, you can use an ez bar with small plates on them and roll that, or even a barbell if you had too. Progressing from kneeling, to weighted kneeling, to standing rollouts, etc. If you're abs don't kill you the first time after doing them, you didn't do it properly.

I like what I see in here, might not agree with you on everything, but your dedicated and progressing and that's what counts. Just remember to keep upping the rack deads and front squats .

Keep it up!

 

[CarlitosWay]

Nah, most powerlifters don't even do a legal squat (top of thigh at hip joint below top of knee). Especially the ones that use a super wide stance (APF, etc) their squats are a joke. You can't even come close to full depth with such a wide stance, your groin would tear.

You're more than welcome to post some vids in here on how to do some "properly deep squats" with some good weight, your 360X5 would be suffice *crickets chirp* Don't give an excuse about no cam either, as nearly every cell phone nowadays has one, even if ****ty.

How exactly do you know "most powerlifters" don't even do a legal squat? May I ask sir, exactly how many meets have you competed in and how many meets have you been to in person? No vids on youtube or anywhere do not count. Plus many vids obscure what depth they're hitting depending on the angle and such.

Plers are masters of human bio mechanics and will use the best means to lift as much weight as possible, as you indicated in your last statement. Most I see don't squat ass-to-grass but at least hit parallel. Why would they want to go extremely deep anyways when parallel is suffice for the judges? Yet you're making yourself look like a fool in here even with guys like Drum&Bass telling you what's up.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Sweet. I like to follow Shelby's articles.

And the Harris squats weren't buried, but they weren't half squats either. 500x16 at that depth is pretty sweet. Some people just do better staying higher, everyone is different. Maybe he couldn't give a rats a** what depth it was.

Carlitos, I'd really recommend hitting ab wheel rollouts. If you don't have a wheel, you can use an ez bar with small plates on them and roll that, or even a barbell if you had too. Progressing from kneeling, to weighted kneeling, to standing rollouts, etc. If you're abs don't kill you the first time after doing them, you didn't do it properly.

I like what I see in here, might not agree with you on everything, but your dedicated and progressing and that's what counts. Just remember to keep upping the rack deads and front squats .

Keep it up!

Oh nice yeeah willl def give those a go, as I've also had a big ass german bodybuilder recommend ez bar ab roll outs to me also .

What don't you agree with? Just a bit curious, let me have it!!:box: Remember tho, SIZE is my main goal. We're prob around the same strength/size as I have deadlifted 350X5, bb inclined 205X4, and I can front squat 245 and god knows how much I can back squat right now lols. I can hack squat 360X 2 though lol!! but yea machines don't count here .

 

[Jitterbug]

You're more than welcome to post some vids in here on how to do some "properly deep squats" with some good weight, your 360X5 would be suffice *crickets chirp* Don't give an excuse about no cam either, as nearly every cell phone nowadays has one, even if ****ty.

How exactly do you know "most powerlifters" don't even do a legal squat? May I ask sir, exactly how many meets have you competed in and how many meets have you been to in person? No vids on youtube or anywhere do not count. Plus many vids obscure what depth they're hitting depending on the angle and such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jxTc2ITA8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8yKSJbpFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cryh1S74qlo

Here's some front squat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkK9-mnDAy4

And here's everyone's favourite bodybuilders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6SJf1TcMks

What's that? They're squatting with narrow stance & hitting full depth while doing 20 rep squat? How can that be possible???

Hope that's clear enough for you. Make sure you have glasses on before viewing.

Make sure you note that you're quarter-squatting or half-squatting when we compare our lifts at the end of the year.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Make sure you note that you're quarter-squatting or half-squatting when we compare our lifts at the end of the year.

lmao whatever bub. Even when I first began and was squatting what I now curl and than some (on rippetoes had to start with 85 lb squats) I went deep, even though I had **** form.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Since Kerpal is an e-expert on a powerlifting squat. har har har. I'm curious as to what he thinks of Kirk Kirk Karwoski 1000X2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo1tU1YqPp0

Also here, if you don't think this is parallel there is something seriously wrong with your judgment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_kfDyIBMUA

 

[CarlitosWay]

If you guys are going to compete against each other, you should probably compare conventional (not sumo) unequipped deadlifts. That is the true test of strength because there's no way to cheat, other than hitching. Not like the squat, where we've got guys doing curtsies with 500 lbs who can't pull 315 off the floor.

I don't do much sumo yet why how would it not be true strength if two people use the same exercise be it sumos or convs? They're both real great except one can be a lot more comfortable for people and has a smaller ROM.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Yup, most weightlifters to me are much more impressive than most powerlifters. These guys go deep, with a narrow stance, raw, with more weight than a lot of powerlifters do to quarter depth with a wide stance in a multi ply suit out of a monolift with.

Compare the videos Jitterbug posted to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrhOWcby3U

They call that a squat. :crackup: Now if you want to see true squats in powerlifting, watch USAPL or IPF meets. The multi ply feds are a joke.

Don't even know why I'm trying to defend plers LOL. Yet from what I see and hear all feds have some judges who pass some squats that are a bit high here or there. So I don't see a problem with the lifters, it's the JUDGES . Yet I doubt you nor Jitterbug can even touch any weight close to what those guys are doing even if you use their form, so I don't understand all the hate on the powerlifters. LOL. You guys bringing up olympic lifters and vids of them against powerlifters, which is like comparing olympic skiing to olympic snowboarding. Two different sports/techniques in the same exact element.

 

[Jitterbug]

I think sumo is fine. The ROM looks smaller (actually not much) but it isn't any easier. Sumo provides a better leverage for certain people, myself included, who have relatively shorter arms compared to torso and who have stronger legs than back. Conventional DL's sequence of lifting is back-legs-back whereas sumo is legs-back. I've done both, and sumo allows me to get closer to the bar (due to short arms) and keeps my chest up. My 1RMs in both are identical, but the one done with sumo looks more comfortable for my body.

I agree with Kerpal's sentiment though. DL is a great demonstration of strength because there's really no "cheat" way to lift a heavy weight off the floor to lockout. Even DL suits don't help.

So CarlitosWay, what do you think about the Oly lifters?

As for your PLer squatting 1000lbs, don't make me pull out Paul Anderson's photos...

 

[CarlitosWay]

I think sumo is fine. The ROM looks smaller (actually not much) but it isn't any easier. Sumo provides a better leverage for certain people, myself included, who have relatively shorter arms compared to torso and who have stronger legs than back. Conventional DL's sequence of lifting is back-legs-back whereas sumo is legs-back. I've done both, and sumo allows me to get closer to the bar (due to short arms) and keeps my chest up. My 1RMs in both are identical, but the one done with sumo looks more comfortable for my body.

I agree with Kerpal's sentiment though. DL is a great demonstration of strength because there's really no "cheat" way to lift a heavy weight off the floor to lockout. Even DL suits don't help.

So CarlitosWay, what do you think about the Oly lifters?

As for your PLer squatting 1000lbs, don't make me pull out Paul Anderson's photos...

Ummm I imagine Paul outweighed those two guys I posted by a real good amount. Still guys was outrageously strong, especially in those times and a genetic anomaly + hard worker at that.

As for Oly lifters. I have nothing against them and never will. If you read through all my posts never once bash any lifting style whatsoever. Everyone has different goals. I learn things from Oly lifters, powerlifters and bodybuilders. For instance I like front squats cause that's what builds the freaky quad size on most Olympic lifters, learned from powerlifters to take real good care of your wrists/elbows/shoulders (e.g. wrist wraps, scapulae work) and I've learned all about proper nutrition and training for size from bodybuilders.

Close mindedness is what hurts most people in any endeavor.

 

[Jitterbug]

I don’t have anything against sumo style but I don’t think you can compare it to conventional. They are two totally different lifts so it’s kind of unfair to compare numbers between them. I saw a study where they compared them, and IIRC the sumo guys had 25-40% less ROM. It would be like if I ran 50 meters and you ran 70 meters and I said I was faster because I finished in less time. They are just different events.

The deadlift is judged as picking up a heavy weight from the floor to standing up straight, hip & arm lockout. How you do it is not taken into account as a showcase of strength. Those two ways may be different but they're trying to achieve the same goal. I don't think the running analogy is correct. The ROMs are different but so are the leverages. A person may be strong in one but not stronger in another. If sumo's reduced ROM were that beneficial, the record deadlifts would all be done sumo style, but this isn't the case (top DLs right now are done conventional style). A guy with long arms & strong back will be worse at sumo than conventional.

Right, but both do squats. And the weightlifters do a much harder style of squat, and many can still move as much or more weight as poweflifters in the same weight class. If they switched to a powerlifting style squat they could do even more weight.

Yup.

Guys, read this post by Glenn Pendlay:

http://www.board.crossfit.com/showpost.php?p=404418&postcount=93

It's him discussing high bar (OL) vs low bar (PL) squats.

Here's the relevant quote:

2) As I see it, the heart of this argument is really about the carry-over of LB and HB squats to other things, specifically OL. Here are a few general observations about carry-over.

When I was a good LB squatter, that strength did not carry over well to HB or front squats, as evidenced by some of the numbers above. When later in my lifting career, I became a decent HB squatter, it directly and immedietly carried over to being able to do very respectable numbers in the LB squat. My front squat of 550lbX5reps and HB back squat of 606lbsX10 reps, both done without a belt, these sets done about a month apart, allowed me to do several very, very respectable LB squats, and LB box squats with no practice or training on either the LB squat or the LB box squat. My feeling was that strength gained from HB squatting was just more "transferable" to other things than strength gained from LB squatting. Through many conversations with others, and a fair bit of experience coaching ex-powerlifters in the Olympic lifts, I have found that this seems to be quite universal. HB, Olympic style squatting will make you strong at the LB squat, LB squatting with a more bent over stance and less depth will NOT carry over well to the HB, Olympic style squat. I think the carry over from one to another bears considering, because what what we are really talking about here is the carry over from one type of squat or another to a completely different exercise.


Fred Hatfield, AKA "Dr. Squat" who is a respected authority on strength training, has written a couple of very good books on the subject, and who competed at a fairly high level in both gymnastics and OL before achieving a 1008lb squat at 44 years of age and I believe around 255lbs, has argued extensively that not only should the HB squat be used EXCLUSIVELY for the training of athletes, but its qualities of carry over are such that even POWERLIFTERS who are actually competing with a low bar, bent over, only to parallel and sometimes wide stance squat, should in fact do HB, Olympic style squats for much of the off season. In a rough quote of his words, HB squats build strength, LB squats demonstrate it.

Case closed.

 

[Jitterbug]

Sumo is new to Americans but Europeans (which those 3 tops guys are) have used it for ages. In fact, it's the American PLers who saw the Europeans pull that way at meets in Europe & came back home & popularised it in Nth America.

If it were better than conventional DL regardless of leverage then those top guys would use it, but it's not. You know how far PLers will go to get a few extra pounds.

If you train them both equally, you should be stronger sumo style because the ROM is shorter. I don't really see why having long arms and a strong back would make you worse at sumo, the long arms would only make the ROM even shorter sumo style and having a strong back never hurts.

Not strong back, but strongER back compared to legs. You still need a strong back for sumo.

The hardest part of the DL is getting the weight off the ground. A guy with stronger back than legs will benefit from conventional, because the firing sequence is back-legs-back, i.e he uses his back to lift the weight off the ground first, then the legs carry it up till the back locks it out. A guy with stronger legs than back will benefit from sumo, as the firing sequence is legs-back: legs (and hips) box-squat the weight up half way then the back finishes it off. A guy with long arms won't have the same leg leverage for the first part of the lift as a guy with short arms does, since he has to stand up more instead of starting from a stronger box squat position. He will also reduce the back leverage advantage by using a sumo stance.

I don't know what your leverage is like, but give sumo a try to see if it's actually easier for you. I used to think the same way but after visiting a group of 50 lifters, each DLing between 200kg and 273.5kg, and seeing that they all DL differently because of different body leverages, I changed my mind.

For the record, my sumo is 172.5kg and conv is 170kg.

 

[cuzza]

Half of this thread feels like a Youtube video of someone doing some insane lift, with a trillion people crying about ''proper form'' (no such thing as). Granted it's a LOT more intelligent, but still.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Half of this thread feels like a Youtube video of someone doing some insane lift, with a trillion people crying about ''proper form'' (no such thing as). Granted it's a LOT more intelligent, but still.

This is exactly what I didn't want MY thread turning into, a whole bunch of rants about "this or that is better" "or they don't know what they're doing". Where has the camaraderie gone? What the powerlifters, oly lifters and bodybuilders of the old days had!?!! They all used to frequent the same gyms and no one nit picked each other or what they did, they all just trained together and helped each other out and encouraged others even though they had different goals!!!!

I was hoping my thread could be a place people could post their own personal records and others could chime in with advice or tips and encouragement.:yes:

 

[ATP]

This is exactly what I didn't want MY thread turning into, a whole bunch of rants about "this or that is better" "or they don't know what they're doing". Where has the camaraderie gone? What the powerlifters, oly lifters and bodybuilders of the old days had!?!! They all used to frequent the same gyms and no one nit picked each other or what they did, they all just trained together and helped each other out and encouraged others even though they had different goals!!!!

I was hoping my thread could be a place people could post their own personal records and others could chime in with advice or tips and encouragement.:yes:

This post was very good to read. There is nothing more annoying than the know-it-all-nit-picking people that frequent some forums. It is impossible to actually post on some places because everyone slap you in the face as soon as you have a training philosophy that doesn't match what is "in" atm. A few years ago it was MAX-OT, then came dogg crap, 5x5, now it's 5-3-1 I think.

That's why I love this forum, people are not stuck up *******s and people actually is a lot nicer here than other places. You're one of the guys who makes this forum a better place carlitos. You have your set goal, everyone is trying to be strong, you lift to sculpt a nice body (from what I understand). In a world of compound and basic exercises it's pretty daring to use as much isolation as you do, and the enthusiasm you got for lifting really is contagious. :rockon:

So lets make this a thread where we help each other out.