The Big Secret about Sex

[izza]

I imagine some people will find it difficult to talk about this topic in a serious and rational manner. Some will feel so ashamed or uncomfortable, they will resort to crude jokes or even insults against me. In all fairness, that's precisely what I would have done less than six months ago. But I also expect that some will be mature enough to have something useful and thoughtful to say, so I am posting my thoughts here.

We don't tell children about sex. Have you ever thought about the reason for this before?

If you're like me, then one day as you were going to sleep at the age of 13, you finally realized that your dad must have stuck his penis in your mom in order to have created you. And you found this to be the most surprising and disgusting secret you had ever dreamed of. And you wished this knowledge would go away, but it wouldn't.

And if you're like me, once you discovered the beauty of women, it occupied most of your thoughts and endeavors. To the point where you almost miss the days when you didn't know what women were. Maybe you feel a bit of nostalgia. Even though you weren't truly happy then, at least you didn't know it, right?

Let's take the hypothetical case of Guy A who says to a six-year old, "I like to have sex w/ my girlfriend. It feels really good" The child says "what is sex?" If the mom of that child finds out, that guy will probably never see that child again. Right? There is nothing revelatory about this. This actually happens from time to time.

If a child finds out about sex, we say that a child is in danger of losing his innocence.

If a child watches even a second of pornography, we are ashamed. We are worried for that child. That child has become an adult too early, we say. I think what terrifies us the most is that little children will start having sex with each other. And I'll be the first to tell you, that really disturbs me as well.

You ever hear the story about two kindergardeners who were caught having sex with each other in a closet? Or one kindergartener who proposed having sex with another and then humped her? I work in child welfare, so I hear sad and disturbing stories like these all the time. I have to confess that I am having difficulty finding the source of these feelings, that really they are too young. That somehow, it is not right for children to know these things or behave in these ways.

I am open to suggestions and would really appreciate your help.

If a child watching pornography loses his innocence, or his goodness, what does that say about us adults. Are we bad if we know about sex? Are we somehow fallen from an earlier purity?

Why do we hide things from our kids? Why do we tell them that Santa Claus exists and to believe in the Tooth Fairy. Sometimes it sounds like these lies and half-truths are about the power of the parent over the child. We are taking advantage of their innocence to make them behave in a more manageable way.

If I ever have kids, I am considering telling them the truth about everything. I view the parent's job as helping children learn to make decisions in the real world - not to create a fantasy world that is cutely naive.

If I raise a child this way, he or she will shatter the fantasy worlds of a lot of other children, simply by knowing the truth. A lot of parents will probably call me irresponsible or heathen or a lot of things. With other people's children, I obviously follow their wishes on the matter, which tend to differ from my opinion, but I respect that.

I would like to hear reasons why sex is ok, but children shouldn't know about it.

I think the real thing I miss the most about childhood are the days when I didn't know anything about sex at all, and so never thought about it.

Thanks, Izza

 

[speakeasy]

You don't have to "tell" a child about sex. At some point, they will sooner or later figure it out. We are part of the animal kindgom and no other animals have to tell their offspring about sex. Their genes will eventually wake them up to this reality when they hit puberty. I don't remember anyone ever actually telling me about sex when I was kid, but somehow I still figured out from somewhere that men and women create babies. Maybe someone told me and I don't remember. You don't have to explain the mechanics of it to a kid, just tell them that men and women make kids and if he or she asks how, tell them "you'll understand when you get older" and leave it at that.

 

[izza]

Good reply. I have worked extensively with children (I still work in child welfare even though I don't work directly with troubled children anymore), and I am definitely not against fantasy worlds. In fact, I find that nothing is better than positive fantasies at uprooting our negative and destructive fantasies (aka what cynics call "reality"). Being a child was great and I think my only goal for my life is to rediscover the joy of childhood everywhere - in sex, in work, in my friends, in play, and in my music.

why not let kids enjoy it while they can.

I agree. I would go even farther to say that adults should enjoy these things, and it is such a shame that we don't.

I still see implied in your reply that sex is something that can't exist in a child's fantasy world. Part of me disagrees.

Note that in your reply, knowledge of sex is knowledge of "some men will get women while the others will beg for sex their whole life." I disagree that this is the only thing children can know about sex.

I think the problem is that we haven't found a healthy way for children to understand sex. The reason is that most parents don't have a healthy understanding of sex, because most parents are still ashamed that they have sex and want sex, and masturbate and watch porn. These are adult fantasies, but they are still seen as shameful.

Why are the child's fantasies of being Gandalf cute while an adult fantasizing that he is fvcking Jenna Jameson pathetic and sad? They are both fantasies. There is something strange and hypocritical about that. Isn't there? Do you see what I'm saying here? I'm not sure what bugs me about this, but there is something. Sex is so taboo.

They'll find out on their own, your job is to sustain the fantasy as long as you can.

This is a key phrase and a really important point. I think my job as a parent would be to help kids develop healthy and constructive fantasies about the world.

According to some cognitions, there is no real difference between a child's fantasy and our understanding of the world. The structures are the same, it's just that our understanding of the world is a far more complex and deemed a more realistic fantasy. But it still shares the same structures as children's fantasies.

Are you saying that a child's innocence/joy and any knowledge of sex are completely incompatible?

I enjoyed the reply, and I like your youthful spirit. Good food for thought,

Izza

 

[izza]

You don't have to "tell" a child about sex. At some point, they will sooner or later figure it out. We are part of the animal kindgom and no other animals have to tell their offspring about sex. Their genes will eventually wake them up to this reality when they hit puberty. I don't remember anyone ever actually telling me about sex when I was kid, but somehow I still figured out from somewhere that men and women create babies. Maybe someone told me and I don't remember. You don't have to explain the mechanics of it to a kid, just tell them that men and women make kids and if he or she asks how, tell them "you'll understand when you get older" and leave it at that.

Good post.

no other animals have to tell their offspring about sex.

Well yeah, no other animals have language.

Your point of view seems to be that telling children about sex is a waste of time because they'll figure it out someday on their own. You raise no objection to just telling them right now.

Yet if they ask, you say "you'll understand when you get older."

So can you think of any reason I shouldn't tell my kids about what sex is, how it works, why adults have it?

I agree with cultivating healthy fantasies in children - because I believe adults have unhealthy fantasies, cynically known as "reality." I believe sex can be woven into a healthy fantasy world for children.

Izza

 

[ChrizZ]

as long as you just tell them and not show them I don't see a problem.

 

[Magma]

Great questions sir. I teach junior high history, and I often struggle with what to tell my students when I teach on something serious such as 9/11 (coming up on Tuesday). What I must recognize is their mental ability to synthesize what I'm saying, and not misunderstand or misconstrue (I know I have failed in this when I receive calls from parents wondering what the heck I am teaching their children).

We mask many truths from children. Why do we do this? Perhaps we realize that children are becoming adults more quickly today than even 10 years ago. Kids have the internet and cell phones, and have grown up with Britney
Spears as a role model for crissakes. I can't believe some of the cattiness I see even among 13 year old girls. Quite disturbing indeed. They are becoming "adults" at a much younger age, it seems.

We need to let kids be kids. Soon enough, they will grow up and face all the problems that we deal with everyday. Let's let them live in their imaginations for as long as possible. I learn so much from these kids on a daily basis, and it really does break my heart to see them modeling certain adult behaviors before they are truly ready.

Should a kid learn about sex on the playground? Certainly not. Teach them, but only when they're ready to accept what you're about to drop. Let a child be a child. The reality is, only you, and you alone, knows what is best for YOUR child. Only you know what YOUR child is capable of understanding. Take this knowledge of your children and decide what is best.

Izza, may I suggest The Nature of the Child by Jerome Kagan. He's generally regarded as a primary authority on the mind of a child and draws from many aspects of psychology. It was required reading in one of my graduate classes and think it may be of some value to you.

Respect.

 

[Last Man Standing]

Absolutely no!!! This is the unnatural order of things, for obcious reasons!! The sexification of children is part of tho homo hor matrix!! You are starting to see this on TV and music!!!

 

[izza]

as long as you just tell them and not show them I don't see a problem.

I'm starting to feel the same way you feel. Thanks for sharing your opinion. Under the "show them" category, what do you think about showing a kid pornography or a racy movie?

"The basic difference between an ordinary man and a Don Juan is that the Don Juan takes everything as a challenge while an ordinary man takes everything either as a blessing or a curse”

This seems to be culled directly from Carlos Castaneda.

Great questions sir. I teach junior high history, and I often struggle with what to tell my students when I teach on something serious such as 9/11 (coming up on Tuesday). What I must recognize is their mental ability to synthesize what I'm saying, and not misunderstand or misconstrue (I know I have failed in this when I receive calls from parents wondering what the heck I am teaching their children).

We mask many truths from children. Why do we do this? Perhaps we realize that children are becoming adults more quickly today than even 10 years ago. Kids have the internet and cell phones, and have grown up with Britney
Spears as a role model for crissakes. I can't believe some of the cattiness I see even among 13 year old girls. Quite disturbing indeed. They are becoming "adults" at a much younger age, it seems.

We need to let kids be kids. Soon enough, they will grow up and face all the problems that we deal with everyday. Let's let them live in their imaginations for as long as possible. I learn so much from these kids on a daily basis, and it really does break my heart to see them modeling certain adult behaviors before they are truly ready.

Should a kid learn about sex on the playground? Certainly not. Teach them, but only when they're ready to accept what you're about to drop. Let a child be a child. The reality is, only you, and you alone, knows what is best for YOUR child. Only you know what YOUR child is capable of understanding. Take this knowledge of your children and decide what is best.

Izza, may I suggest The Nature of the Child by Jerome Kagan. He's generally regarded as a primary authority on the mind of a child and draws from many aspects of psychology. It was required reading in one of my graduate classes and think it may be of some value to you.

Respect.

Thanks for the compliment. I really enjoyed your reply, thanks for sharing. Your thread capped off what has been a great discussion thus far. I seriously didn't think people on this board were capable of mature discussion - this has been great!

That's a really good point about kids growing up earlier and earlier. When I was in elementary school (15 yrs ago), I don't recall kids dating each other, wearing as much makeup, wearing as skimpy clothing. Even primary teachers are beginning to be astonished by what their kids do, say, dress like.

You're absolutely right that I'll know my kid and know what's best. And when I used to be a piano teacher, I appreciated how quickly I could get fired for taking any, shall we say, "liberties" in the kinds of things I talked about. Those little 10 year olds quizzed me all the time about my love life lol.

PS I want to get that book this week. I'm going to fund a new wing for the library when I pay the fine for a hilariously overdue book, maybe I can get the book then.

I think we'll have found a proper understanding of sex when we can tell our kids about it.

Wait, hold the phone, let's say that again, we'll have found a proper understanding of sex when we can tell our kids about it. That's a novel idea.

Although this topic is very interesting in and of itself, I also think it's relevant for seduction as well.

Have you noticed the pattern in some of the responses? "No let a child keep his innocence." "Let the child be a child." What happens when a child knows the truth about the world, according to these posts? Apparently, the child becomes less happy. If these posters don't mind me making an assumption, I would assume that these posters have not found happiness with their sexuality. I know I haven't found this yet. Sometimes, I wish my desire for sex would just fvcking go away. Right? I wish I could go back to being a kid, I wish I could be innocent again, because I can't find a woman, this is too hard. That is how I feel sometimes.

This is a sign of maladjusted sexuality - whatever we're doing, we're not getting what we want, we're not evolving to fit our niche. There's something missing here. We don't have a healthy attitude about sex; we don't feel comfortable. There is something hugely important in this "loss of purity" attitude. Personally, I have learned so much from children, I strive to become a child who has learned the ways of the world but kept the purity and goodness. I think we can find both of these in sex, but we have to grow.

There is a hugely important lesson here. It's right under our nose, but I don't think I've found it yet. I hope further discussion will be able to tease this out. One thing I know for certain, the day I started telling my parents that I want to have sex was the day I was able to easily approach a girl on the bus. This shame that we feel about our sexuality may be one of the biggest obstacles to our sexual dreams becoming reality.

Izza

PS I think I start to wonder if, at least considering the horrid influence of our dear friend Brittany, we need to take a far more honest approach with today's children. They are becoming world savvy way earlier, whether we like it or not. I think we may need a more preemptive approach. And it kinda sucks because it's not really a school teacher's job and could get that person fired. We can't address issues that are actually going to impact that kid's life in math class, if you know what I mean.

 

[Last Man Standing]

... what do you think about showing a kid pornography or a racy movie?

Why is this shyt allowed to be posted??? I know your agenda, DEVIL!!!!!!

 

[Obsidian]

I think the main reason we don't tell kids about it is because it will gross them out. It takes sexual feelings and sexuality itself to be able to appreciate the reproductive act. Kids would probably just get freaked out.

 

[penkitten]

Good reply. I have worked extensively with children (I still work in child welfare even though I don't work directly with troubled children anymore)

izza, if you have worked in a field like that, then why haven't you realized that parents who have introduced "adult" things too early have eff'ed their kids up?

honestly, the kid that came in to your office that got caught smoking pot at 12 yrs old, has had some adult close to him do it in front of him.

the little 12 yr old girl who is sleeping with a 16 yr old boy, has had some adult somewhere say that sex is ok and natural.

the 14 yr old kid that was depressed and suicidal has an adult out there that has been talking about suicide.

usually these adults are their parents, step parents, grandparents, older siblings, aunts and uncles or very close friends to the family.

in a house that says drugs are bad, kids are less likely to try them.
in a house that says sex before marriage is bad, has less teenage pregnancies and stds come into it.
in a house that says happiness means everything, has less children that want to be goth, talk about killing themselves, take less meds for depression and have less "cutters" and suicide attempts.

 

[penkitten]

I believe sex can be woven into a healthy fantasy world for children.

Izza

i believe that there is nothing healthy that can be woven into children about sex.

 

[penkitten]

daddy why does my pee pee look different from my sister's pee pee
answer it with a simple... it is not ok to look at someone else's pee pee , and it is different because you have a boys pee pee and she has a girls pee pee.

"daddy, where do babies come from?
"mommy, how did that baby get in your tummy?

if you are religious and the child is under puberty age this can be answered with ...
god creates a baby and sends the baby down in the small size of a morsel and places that morsel of a baby into a mothers tummy to grow and be safe until the baby is big enough to be brought into this world and be born.


once a child is old enough that puberty has hit, everything and every answer changes. it changes because the child's body is now mature enough to procreate even if their mind is not mature enough to handle it.
you have the birds and the bees talk. you can't just sit the kid down and tell them that one day they will be old enough to have sex and make babies so be careful. you must start off by talking about the changes their own body is going through and describe what puberty is.
you work your way up to talking about how a male bodies are different from female bodies and how each of them work. (just like in biology class)
by the end of the talk, they should have a general idea of what they need to know.

when you discover a child is on a verge of becoming sexually active, that is when you have a big talk about sex before marriage, stds and pregnancies.

if you discover that a child is sexually active, you sit them down and scold them, and make sure they know how to protect themselves.

what else can you say without effing a kid up?

 

[Bonhomme]

Lot of funny answers here.

Kids generally have better bullshit detectors than adults.

While its crazy to sexify children the way that's being done so much these days, going too far the other way with "sex is bad" indoctrination tends to make kids either rebel or become very insecure about sex when they're adults.

I know that from having experienced a Catholic upbringing which took me a while to "deprogram" as a young adult to develop a more healthy attitude about sex.

A parent's task is to convey the idea that sex is a good thing, but only when people are truly ready to deal with its consequences.

How to do that is not something that could be set out in a little post like this, but a parent who truly has the kid's best interest in mind without some sort of (typically dogmatic or in some way hung-up) agenda of their own should do OK.

But ultimately there's only so much a parent can do. Kids bring themselves up far more than anybody cares to admit.

 

[izza]

I think the main reason we don't tell kids about it is because it will gross them out. It takes sexual feelings and sexuality itself to be able to appreciate the reproductive act. Kids would probably just get freaked out.

Obsidian, please, I think Pook is you. You're smarter than that guy anyway.

Probably just get freaked out. Ok, I can agree with that. Definitely, children don't really know what to make of it, and it does pretty much rock their world. I do think that this knowledge will help them later on, but I can see how you wouldn't want them to freak out. I do feel that if you can breach the subject in the right way, you'll be helping the kid in his/her sexual development a lot.

So I think how I feel about the matter is that you're right, telling a kid about sex can be disturbing. But I think that disturbingness is going to come sooner or later, and I think the less sex is some big secret, the easier it is later on to have a healthy attitude. The goal is to prepare a kid for a complicated opportunity; a part of ourselves that should be treated with respect and with some caution. I think we can tell kids about this and not have them fvcking at 13. Think of when a scandal breaks out in the White House. You don't want the press corps to break a story, you want the White House to break a story. The way things are these days, I think some major preparation for puberty wouldn't be a bad idea. We only start teaching sex ed when the kids have lost their virginity!

izza, if you have worked in a field like that, then why haven't you realized that parents who have introduced "adult" things too early have eff'ed their kids up?

honestly, the kid that came in to your office that got caught smoking pot at 12 yrs old, has had some adult close to him do it in front of him.

the little 12 yr old girl who is sleeping with a 16 yr old boy, has had some adult somewhere say that sex is ok and natural.

the 14 yr old kid that was depressed and suicidal has an adult out there that has been talking about suicide.

usually these adults are their parents, step parents, grandparents, older siblings, aunts and uncles or very close friends to the family.

in a house that says drugs are bad, kids are less likely to try them.
in a house that says sex before marriage is bad, has less teenage pregnancies and stds come into it.
in a house that says happiness means everything, has less children that want to be goth, talk about killing themselves, take less meds for depression and have less "cutters" and suicide attempts.

Ok, I can tell you don't think telling kids about sex is wise, say before age 10. That's fine. When did your parents tell you about sex? When did you learn about it in school? When did YOUR friends tell you about it?

Can you discuss sex in a mature and open way with your parents today? I am not trying to interrogate you or prove anything, I just want to know. My parents have never uttered a syllable about sex. As I recall they gave me an incredibly vague book about it at age 12 which informed me of nothing. I went to a private school so I never learned anything until I went to a public high school, where I learned everything at once.

I have had to make an enormous effort to be comfortable with my sexuality, because my parents still have a furtive and childish attitude toward sex. I have had to bring it up with them, often to stunned silence.

As for your question about child welfare, the worst sex offenders in children are rape victims. This is where you get the coercive 7 year olds, aka crimes of mimicry. Then people who have witnessed rapes, they're bad. Then after that, kids who have been abandoned or non-sexually abused by their parents sometimes develop sexual risk behaviors in puberty.

Obviously, the kids who have parents who love and support them, and who tell them what the sexual act is, and how emotionally complicated and risky it is - in short, who explain that it requires a lot of responsibility and adult decision making, this type of parenting does not cause high risk behavior. It helps cause healthy development.

 

[izza]

i believe that there is nothing healthy that can be woven into children about sex.

That's cool. Maybe you're right. I can think of stuff that seems pretty healthy to me.

daddy why does my pee pee look different from my sister's pee pee
answer it with a simple... it is not ok to look at someone else's pee pee , and it is different because you have a boys pee pee and she has a girls pee pee.

"daddy, where do babies come from?
"mommy, how did that baby get in your tummy?

Just because you can't think of a way to bring it up, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Also, I ask that that be the last sarcastic post on here. If you can't make your point without sarcasm, then I don't see why I should expect a mature answer from you. Or bother to respond.

if you are religious and the child is under puberty age this can be answered with ...
god creates a baby and sends the baby down in the small size of a morsel and places that morsel of a baby into a mothers tummy to grow and be safe until the baby is big enough to be brought into this world and be born.


once a child is old enough that puberty has hit, everything and every answer changes. it changes because the child's body is now mature enough to procreate even if their mind is not mature enough to handle it.
you have the birds and the bees talk. you can't just sit the kid down and tell them that one day they will be old enough to have sex and make babies so be careful. you must start off by talking about the changes their own body is going through and describe what puberty is.
you work your way up to talking about how a male bodies are different from female bodies and how each of them work. (just like in biology class)
by the end of the talk, they should have a general idea of what they need to know.

when you discover a child is on a verge of becoming sexually active, that is when you have a big talk about sex before marriage, stds and pregnancies.

if you discover that a child is sexually active, you sit them down and scold them, and make sure they know how to protect themselves.

what else can you say without effing a kid up?

You can say a whole lot of things that are profoundly healthy for the kid. Again, I think that as you find the ability to talk seriously and maturely about sex with women and your friends, and your parents, you will discover that there are a lot of lessons you wish you'd gotten earlier.

So long as your attitude about sex with women is that it is mutual masturbation, I can understand why you wouldn't want to tell a child about that.

 

[izza]

Lot of funny answers here.

Kids generally have better bullshit detectors than adults.

While its crazy to sexify children the way that's being done so much these days, going too far the other way with "sex is bad" indoctrination tends to make kids either rebel or become very insecure about sex when they're adults.

I know that from having experienced a Catholic upbringing which took me a while to "deprogram" as a young adult to develop a more healthy attitude about sex.

A parent's task is to convey the idea that sex is a good thing, but only when people are truly ready to deal with its consequences.

How to do that is not something that could be set out in a little post like this, but a parent who truly has the kid's best interest in mind without some sort of (typically dogmatic or in some way hung-up) agenda of their own should do OK.

But ultimately there's only so much a parent can do. Kids bring themselves up far more than anybody cares to admit.

Bonhomme, this is an fvcking awesome reply. I see a ton of wisdom in there, especially about "sex is a good thing, but only when people are truly ready to deal with its consequences." And you make a great point when you say that this post is a bit too small to summarize how to bring this up in a helpful way w/ children.

Thanks for sharing,
Izza

 

[penkitten]

So long as your attitude about sex with women is that it is mutual masturbation, I can understand why you wouldn't want to tell a child about that.

i have never had sex nor have i ever masturbated with a woman. i am not gay.
of course, if i was gay, then i wouldn't have children to explain sex to.

 

[azanon]

Lot of funny answers here.

Kids generally have better bullshit detectors than adults.

While its crazy to sexify children the way that's being done so much these days, going too far the other way with "sex is bad" indoctrination tends to make kids either rebel or become very insecure about sex when they're adults.

I know that from having experienced a Catholic upbringing which took me a while to "deprogram" as a young adult to develop a more healthy attitude about sex.

A parent's task is to convey the idea that sex is a good thing, but only when people are truly ready to deal with its consequences.

How to do that is not something that could be set out in a little post like this, but a parent who truly has the kid's best interest in mind without some sort of (typically dogmatic or in some way hung-up) agenda of their own should do OK.

But ultimately there's only so much a parent can do. Kids bring themselves up far more than anybody cares to admit.

Excellent post and full of wisdom.

Man, I can really identify with you about the deprogramming bit too. It took me several years and some ~160 semester college and graduate school hours to undo the religious BS I was ingrained with as a child.

I agree with your comments on the topic.

 

[Ace of Flames]

I say that your whole idea of dropping the sex bomb on these poor kids hard and early is just about the worst thing you could do.

All through history, kids have had to start piecing it all together during puberty, and with or without parental talks, they've got through it. It works. I think any notion that sex even exists before then is not a good move.

They don't need to know, plain and simple. They won't need the information for years anyway, and until then, they'll just be confused and worried about it. What 11 year old kid needs the added thoughts of sex and diseases and sluts and everything else, when their main worries should be passing their test on Friday and how to beat the next level on their video game?

Once they hit puberty, and the questions start to pop up, that's when you ease them into it. They'll learn from you, they'll learn from sex-ed, they'll learn from friends, tv, movies and music too. Not all the things they hear will be right, and some might even be sick and perverted. But that's how it's gonna be. That's how it HAS to be. You can't protect your kids from the entire world, and you shouldn't. They won't learn anything properly and they'll turn out weird.

Don't you remember, when you first started to find out about sex? Remember how you were confused on a lot of things, and there were holes in your understanding of it all? Its supposed to be that way. You fill those holes in over time, when you're ready to understand them. Sex isn't something you can comprehend all at once. You have to think about it, and process it, and get new information, and retool your previous thoughts. You have to ask questions. And when you do have sex for the first time, you still won't have a total grasp on it all. You have to try it out once or twice. Just like you can't REALLY know how a bike works until you've ridden it.

You're proposing that we tell kids early as a way to combat the trend of kids becoming more 'adult-like' sooner, right? I think revealing the truth earlier would only accelerate this trend. Instead, you should focus your energies on how to slow down this process. Ultimately we should have kids really becoming more adult-like around 17, or even older. The transition from kid and adult... teenager, right? I believe that's supposed to be between the ages of 14-20 or so. Try to get it back to that range, instead of the 8-16 like it seems to be reaching now.