Supplements, supplements, supplements...

[Quiksilver]

Alright. I'm in the process of cutting down some unneeded expenses in my life, which brings me to supplements.

They aren't exactly cheap.

Right now, I have in my posession:

Whey $70 per tub
Glutamine $50 per tub
CEE $50 per tub
BCAA $30 for a container
Thermo $25 for a container
Multi $15 for a container
Zinc $7
Magnesium + Calcium $10
Fish oil $30
Flax oil $20
= $307.00

Now...

I get 320g of protein without whey(beef, eggs, chicken, turkey). I eat heaps of veggies and fruit, so that plus the meat should negate any reason to supplement zinc, mag/calc., and take a multi. The only reason I'd take a thermo is when my diet/exercise schedule gets tough to follow and I cant hit meals. The bcaa I really don't think I need to take. The CEE might be helpful but I'd rather just skull some green/white tea for energy before a workout.

The glutamine might be useful, still undecided about it.

I don't think I need whey, unless the absorbtion rate(like 103 or something) really makes a difference post workout.

The fish and flax oil I think I will keep buying. I also like the idea of a thermo when I start to diet down, just to speed things up(damn my slow metabolism).

The rest, I quite frankly don't think I need. It's just overkill when you have a great diet, right?

By keeping the fish oil, flax oil, and saving the thermo and whey for a rainy day, I could cut my expenses waay down. What do you think?

 

[Warboss Alex]

If you're spending too much cut down on the asparagus you eat..

A lot of people say supps are overkill when diet is on point.. I disagree. Unless you're eating homegrown, organic fruits and vegetables their micronutrient content is terrible. Same goes for meats and eggs. As a weight trainer, your micro requirements are WAY above those of the sedentary individual. So supplements are needed, like it or not.

I feel a correct vit/mineral profile in your daily intake is even more important then CEE, BCAAs etc because an unhealthy body will not grow optimally.

To the specifics:

Whey is necessary pre and post workout if you want optimal results. You can go with egg whites alternatively but whey is cheaper.

Glutamine is a luxury if on a budget.

Same goes for CEE.

BCAAs forget it. Unless you're taking in at least 20g per workout (and preferably more like 40-50) you're not going to see a difference. They work great but are very expensive.

Thermo forget it.

Multivitamin keep it, as long as it's a good one. (such as a Beverly multi or NOW Adam)

Zinc, calcium and magnesium are essential for weightlifters as all trainers would be deficient in these minerals if it wasn't for supplementation. However don't buy calcium+magnesium together in one tablet as they inhibit each other's absorption.

Flax oil is a complete waste of money as you already have fish oil. Flaxseeds are a better option as they also have protein and fibre. I don't think flax oils are particularly stable either.

You also need vitamin C despite your fruit intake.

Basically, what you need, in order of importance: fish oil, multivitamin, vitamin c, zinc, magnesium, calcium. I would also add in a b-complex or liver tabs (preferably liver tabs). (taking whey for granted)

The CEE/BCAAs etc are great but only when you can afford them.

 

[Quiksilver]

Alright cool.

Forgot to mention the vitamin C, I also have that .

You mention a multivitamin AND mag/calc/zinc/b-complex. Doesn't a good multi have all these anyways? I'd imagine the dose is much smaller... Is that important for minerals?

I'd then like to cut it down to whey, fish oil, a multi, and vC.

You say that the micronutrients are poor in natural veggies... I thought it was the other way around, that micronutrients and biological makeup is compromised in supps. By the way, the veggies and fruits and meat is all as natural as I can get. I have to cut it all up and prepare it myself and it goes bad if I leave it for a few days in te fridge. The meat also goes bad after a few days.

I feel a correct vit/mineral profile in your daily intake is even more important then CEE, BCAAs etc because an unhealthy body will not grow optimally.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Re fruits/veggies: Unless it is organically grown then it is commercially produced and stripped of much of its goodness. Now I'm not saying buy organic is it's too expensive for what it is. It's not about how you prepare the veg, it's more how it was grown. Mass produced, commercial produce is grown for flavour and not nutrition. (nice example: wild blueberries are sour but packed full of nutrients whereas commercial ones are fat, sweet and devoid of the majority of its goodness)

Supplements are a concentrated form of the minerals yeah and some of them (multivitamins especially) contain a lot of fillers etc which make it inefficient to absorb but if you're buying 100% vit C powder that's what you're getting. If you're getting Bargainmart brand vit c pills, orange flavoured, chewables then you can bet they're full of sh~t. Shop smartly for these.

and yes, the minerals are that important. Multivitamins typically provide the 100% RDA (and often less) - you are NOT a sedentary person for which the RDA was formulated. Your needs are over and above this.

When training hard I take in 20-30 liver tabs a day, that's like 80000% of the RDA of the b-vitamins, and I feel great for it plus my gains tend to accelerate. If I'd relied on a RDA multi I'd've got nowhere.

This is all about optimising your training. Yeah, you can get by on just the basics but your gains will not be optimal.

**** I forgot to mention vitamin E. This is also essential, especially if you take in a lot of fish oil.

I need to start a supps thread

 

[Omen]

Forget the BCAA, keep the creatine, glutamine.... Still a toss up really. If you can afford it, ok, but there really is no verdict yet on glutamine. Still a very gray area unlike creatine where its solid proof for most all studies but your handful which are because of transport reasons in the body usually.

ZMA... If you are going to do that, i'd get SNAC systems ZMA. Well, they are the holders of ZMA patent, but many companies sell it, and you can get it for a decent price.

Here is all I take....

Creatine AKG
Fish Oil Softgels
Flax Oil Softgels (Organic)
Green/White Tea (I mix my own bulk powder & put it in warm water then add OJ)
NOW ADAM Multi Vitamin

This is all I take. Every once in a while I test out a new supplement but that's my religious stack.

Also too, your whey seems high. I usually spend 35-40 on 5lbs of CFM Whey Isolate and then I have Aminogen in there as well.

Of course I customize my protein, and my Green/White Tea are bought in bulk powder. I have 2.2lbs of White tea.

Also just my opinion... get rid of the Vit C. You dont need it.

One multi and your foods will get you what you need, and even for the training person. Most the time you are pissing out the excess. And trust me, just look at your urine and you'll be able to tell what water soluble vitamins are coming out too. Again this multi topic is still gray. I say one a day is great. Cause most of us eat healthy anyway.

I only have 2 multis I suggest to people and its the ADAM by NOW or Beverly Ultra-4.

I went to the NOW and that is the ONLY one I will take. I like its formula and I wont be switching anytime soon.

 

[EFFORT]

you should add Taurine, did i not send you that basic supplement stack file?

 

[Warboss Alex]

you should add Taurine, did i not send you that basic supplement stack file?

I actually rank taurine higher than creatine but we were talking basics, so..

 

[bigshot]

you should add Taurine, did i not send you that basic supplement stack file?

Any chance i can get a copy of this?

 

[Master Bates]

However don't buy calcium+magnesium together in one tablet as they inhibit each other's absorption.

How would that be different from taking separate pills at the same time?

 

[Warboss Alex]

How would that be different from taking separate pills at the same time?

it wouldn't be, they'd still inhibit each other.

 

[Master Bates]

it wouldn't be, they'd still inhibit each other.

So how far apart do you need to take them?

 

[Warboss Alex]

So how far apart do you need to take them?

I can't quote you an exact time but just take them at different times of day. Say get up, have your calcium with your breakfast pills and take zinc+magnesium 30 mins before bed (thus emulating ZMA).

 

[Omen]

I'm going to chime in here and say that I wouldn't rank Taurine period by itself. Sorry, but the data out there on Taurine and athletic performance is VERY sparse. Even an ingestion of 2g on cyclists prior to a cycling event showed nothing.

There is one back in 2003 that was the Role of taurine supplementation to prevent exercise-induced oxidative stress in healthy young men, but that's one study.

I wouldn't (personally) rank taurine anywhere close to creatine. Not in the slightest bit. And personally, I wouldn't waste your money on Taurine. If you are looking for other stuff, there are many other things out there that are far better than taurine, and more promising on athletic performance than taurine at the moment.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Okay, so you just pulled out some data saying taurine is crap.. I can show you data saying it's awesome for health and gains.

But I do gotta question the content of these studies.. why cyclists, why taurine, why 2g? It's a cell volumiser, a cyclist (endurance athlete) will have no benefit from it as far as athletic performance is concerned.

By the way 2g is a very small dose to get real results. I'd go with 10g a day split in two doses on offdays. One in the morning and one pre-bed with ZMA (it helps relax the CNS which is important for deep sleep).

 

[Omen]

Because they used it to test for exhaustion and V02max as well as protective cellular properties. There are many supplements that get tested for more than one reason remember. Whether it be antioxidant effect, V02max, SV (stroke volume) of the heart, muscle recovery, strength, lactate threshold, etc etc.

But as far as it is concerned (again my opinion) is that it doesn't rank anywhere close to creatine and the CrP. We're comparing creatine and ATP synthesis versus Taurine. That's like comparing a Ford Pinto to a Ford Mustang. Maybe there is a better analogy. lol

I could open my exercise Phys book and there are pages about ATP synthesis, Phospocreatine, and even creatine supplementation. Its huge, that's why. Not one mention of Taurine.

Is it totally worthless? Cant say totally, but I can say that personally I wouldn't waste my money on it, nor would I ever compare it to creatine.

 

[Warboss Alex]

1. we are not cyclists
2. we don't take 2g of taurine

how can you use this study to say that it won't work for a weightlifter at a different doseage, regardless of what it has proven for cyclists?

I'm all for data but it's like apples and oranges here as usual.

anyway, we have our collective opinions. I'll let the masses try both and decide for themselves

 

[mrRuckus]

What I take daily:

2 tablespoons some mixture of cod liver oil and fish oil

10g taurine (5 after workout, 5 before bed)

Now ADAM

ZMA before bed (sometimes 3 pills, sometimes 2.. probably gonna stick with 2 to make it last longer especially since ADAM has zinc and mag in it too). Obviously deeper sleep.

Some measure of green tea. I never measure it; i just eyeball some powder, put it in my mug/big cup, add some hot water and cinnamon, and stir. 3-6 mugs of this a day. Cinnamon actually has a number of health benefits such as blood sugar control and it's dirt cheap and i use it for flavoring the tea.

1-2g vit c. Might as well...

Waxy maize - PWO - barely move expensive than dextrose/whatever. Shrug...

I have gemma, egg, caseine, and whey but i don't take them daily and only take them at the appropriate timings like if i'm forced to miss a solid meal while out. Well, i do have a 25% whey, 25% egg, 50% caseine shake before bed (an hour or so after the zma cause of the calcium in calcium caseinate). Will probably change the whey to gemma since gemma is cheaper and you don't really need a quick protein source before bed. This way i can save the more expensive whey for more appropriate times (before and after workout).

3-6g of CEE. Cheap. Tastes great.

Half scoop of delicious greens 8000 (concentrated powder form of stuff in vegetables/fruit - phytonutrients, trace minerals, intestinal flora, etc)

3-5g Beta alanine

35g BCAA

Bought a pound of tyrosine for like $4 on a whim and take a gram or two of it before workouts if i remember.

While i was losing fat i was taking coleus forskohlii and TTA.

I don't really think i spend that much since i buy in bulk and forget about it for a good while. CEE lasts forever... beta alanine lasts forever.. vit c powder lasts forever... Green tea i spent like $100 on over a year ago and still have a bunch left...

One of the things about BCAA is that it can replace protein in your diet so it's not really that much additional cost. It's OBVIOUS to me i recover faster and hardly get sore at all when i sip it throughout workouts.

Does olive oil count as a supplement?

I actually feel kind of stupid taking/trying this stuff. Most probably isn't making a difference.

 

[Master Bates]

Does olive oil count as a supplement?

I don't know, but because I'm no longer eating bread but have a big ol' jar of olive oil in my cupboard, I'm just eating teaspoons of it every day.

 

[EFFORT]

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4247 - Taurine Info


To all you guys that pmed me wanting that basic supplement stack file just send me your email. Just remeber it isn't some magic pill and its only meant to supplement a good training program and diet.

 

[Master Bates]

Never heard of this ZMA stuff before. I was by Vitaminworld earlier today and say bottles of it, and it looked pretty damn expensive. :-/ I could really use something that helps me with deep sleep better, though.