Stem Cell research.

[Morphiex]

so as far as i have understood, stem cell research that the democrats now are backing up is that theyr going to use frozen embryos that were already on the way to be destroyed. Now we already have adult stemm cell research going on , but there is almost no chance of regenetory benefits of the cells , although we have found many cures with adult stemcell research , embrionic stemm cell research would be more promising in results in a shorter timeframe aswell...

But (some of) the republicans disaprove this because they find that using frozen embryos (even if they were already heading for the trash ) for research is killing lives.right?

But what about fertility clinics, when a couple goes to a fertility clinic, they have many implanted eggs that they put in the uturus , not just one , they use about 5-10 for the chance of only one to succesfully attach to the uturus wall , that means 9 lives get destroyed for one life (sometiems all 10), why arent the people against embrionic stem cells research against this aswell ???

And then we have the definition of life, many believe that embryos are to young to be consider lives but many do belive that they are lives , well do they also beleive that sperm is a life ? o everytime we jack off we kill millions of lifes. an embryo is merly a sperm that has grown inside of an egg , the embryo grows inside the woman to become a fetus, so sperm>egg=Embryo>uturus=fetus by this logic it would be that a sperm should also be considered a life.
So people remember everytime you jackk off you kill millions of lives.



for my self i think that stem cell research is the next step to finding cures for the many untreatable decises we have.
I dont think that embryos can be defined as human life, in that logic we have to define sperm as life aswell , and that the research would only be done on frozen embryos that were on the way to be destroyed is very good , atleast some use can be found from them rather then throwing them away like trash.

Also It seems that people have forgotten that the only reason that we have obtained the knowledge of health science that we pocess now is by actual experimentation on living creatures,apes,rabits,mice, before we used living humans... yes most of these are evil acts, but they are the acts that have given us the knowledge we have now .

Edit : More people were concetrating on a simple point then the actual topic of the thread , so i delled it .... jeez

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

But what about fertility clinics, when a couple goes to a fertility clinic, they have many implanted eggs that they put in the uturus , not just one , they use about 5-10 for the chance of only one to succesfully attach to the uturus wall , that means 9 lives get destroyed for one life (sometiems all 10), why arent the people against embrionic stem cells research against this aswell ???

Right now, a couple discovers they are having trouble conceiving for any number of reasons (low sperm count, blocked fallopian tubes, etc.). They want to have a child of their own (rather than, say, adopting) so they check into fertility treatments such as in vitro.

For an in vitro procedure, the egg and sperm are combined in the laboratory and then implanted into the woman. Each instance embryos are implanted is called a treatment cycle. Each treatment cycle costs an average of $12,000 or so and the success rate can vary widely. For this reason, doctors will often create multiple embryos at a time and will often implant multiple embryos in a cycle under the assumption that one of the embryos should thrive. Sometimes they don't, however, and couples have to face the decision to try another cycle or to give up. Other couples succeed, and many have multiple births associated with IVF.

Whatever the result, at the end of treatment many couples have surplus embryos which are now in a state of limbo. Some couples have given up and won't be using the remaining embryos, while other couples have been successful and do not need the remaining embryos. At this point, there are several options:

1. Give the embryos up for adoption.
2. Pay to keep them frozen on the off-chance you might one day want to try again.
3. Allow the IVF clinic to incinerate the embryos.
4. Donate the embryos for medical science.

If #4 is taken off the table, #3 is almost certainly going to be the top result. Hundreds of thousands of embryos are currently destroyed in this manner annually, when they could be helping to further treatments and cures for debilitating diseases and ailments.

And let's be clear about terms here. We're not talking about "babies". We are not even talking about "fetuses". We are talking about blastocysts. Small ball-shaped clusters of cells. Go ahead. Take a look. That's a blastocyst. That's what we're talking about here. Not babies. Not human life. Cells. Cells with two potential destinies: destruction, or giving hope to millions who suffer.

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

why arent the people against embrionic stem cells research against this aswell ???

You know why.

Because they would lose.

If politicians banned fertility treatments for couples who couldn't have babies, the airwaves would be full of young, attractive, sympathetic couples with tears streaking on their cheeks, talking about how badly they want to hold their baby in their arms, but cannot -- all because President/Senator/Representative/Governor So-and-So banned the medical technology that would allow them to witness their baby's first smile, to see their baby's first steps, to wave at the school bus as it takes their baby to his first day of kindergarten.

You think the Michael J. Fox ads sparked sympathy? He would have nothing on this would-be mommies and daddies telling of their shattered dreams into the cameras.

 

[Shiftkey]

I agree with everything said here, except the comparison to Nazi experiments. It's inappropriate to say "evil Nazi science experiments helped people, and stem cell research can too." Morphiex, you were going somewhere with your post until you went there.

 

[dirtyvibe]

I agree with everything said here, except the comparison to Nazi experiments. It's inappropriate to say "evil Nazi science experiments helped people, and stem cell research can too." Morphiex, you were going somewhere with your post until you went there.

go after the idea man, not the emotions of it

 

[Morphiex]

you didnt understand my point.
i wasent being rude or trying to make someone feel bad , it was just that humans have a background of extrme horror when it comes to how we became familiar with human physiology and human treatment and such.
I hate that things like that happened , and i hope to god that no one ever again has to go through something like that , but it is true that doctors used those horrible actions as a basis to create further treatments and such... is horrible to think of , and i wish it would never had happened , but it happened.....

 

[diplomatic_lies]

Just for fun, lets look at this matter logically. You know, logic, the stuff you guys say all men should be made of? Ignore the emotional viewpoints ("but its cruel!"), or the preachy morality issues.

Now from a logical point of view, will stem cell research provide scientific advances to improve the human way of life?

 

[Shiftkey]

you didnt understand my point.
i wasent being rude or trying to make someone feel bad , it was just that humans have a background of extrme horror when it comes to how we became familiar with human physiology and human treatment and such.
I hate that things like that happened , and i hope to god that no one ever again has to go through something like that , but it is true that doctors used those horrible actions as a basis to create further treatments and such... is horrible to think of , and i wish it would never had happened , but it happened.....

Then what is your point? Stem cell research is nothing like those Nazi experiments. Like Gio said, we're talking about a collection of cells that's going to be destroyed anyway, not a person.

 

[Helter Skelter]

Until the most recent administration my views have been more on the conservative side. However, because of the Christian right wing attack on science, I've had enough.

Religion should not get in way of advances in science that can benefit all people. For example, stem cell research, global warming and evolution have all been attacked repeatly for political and religious reason's.

Every decade we learn more about ourselves, our history and are understanding of biology which will allow future generations lives to be improved.

 

[Morphiex]

Then what is your point? Stem cell research is nothing like those Nazi experiments. Like Gio said, we're talking about a collection of cells that's going to be destroyed anyway, not a person.

my point was , that sacrifices were made to gain knowledge, we dont have to do so anymore because we have found ways to provent lives being destroyed for the path of science.

Again I AM PRO stem cell research , im not against it , but my point was meant to those who believed that the stem cells were "lives", that sacrifices are usually made to gain benefit from something...

 

[penkitten]

Again I AM PRO stem cell research

you know what? so am i. so is my mom. so is everybody i know. in fact i never met anyone that is against it in real life.

so if so many are for it, wtf is the problem when the officals are trying to make their decisions on it?

why is it the only bill that george w bush said no to?

now 2/3 of the congress (senate and house of reps) will have to vote yes to over-ride his veto for it to pass. this means that we all need to be writting our congressmen and women and telling them how we feel.

 

[diplomatic_lies]

my point was , that sacrifices were made to gain knowledge, we dont have to do so anymore because we have found ways to provent lives being destroyed for the path of science.

Sometimes, we have to make a few sacrifices for the greater good. Kill a few stem cells, and you could end up saving the lives of millions of real humans.

 

[Shiftkey]

Morphiex I'm glad you're for it. Sorry for the confusion. But don't you see how your arguement in the original post didn't support your position? When you're trying to convince people that what you believe is right, you don't bring up Hitler in that context lol It is unethical to make certain sacrifises no matter the gain.

Penkitten there are people who are against it. Mainly the religious right and much of the red states. You probably just live in a demographic that's more liberal than other places. Here in Orange County, which is a bright red dot in California, I've found several people against it. Most of them are ignorant as rocks as to the science behind it, but a few have been intelligent enough to give logical reasons against it (and btw, these people are against in vetro as well - that's how I usually win those arguements). Fortunately for people like us, congress should be taken back by the Dems in November so it will be possible to pass a bill for stem cell research even without Bush.

Helter Skelter I don't think the religious right is against preventing global warming - big business is the traditional culprit.

 

[penkitten]

Penkitten there are people who are against it. Mainly the religious right and much of the red states. You probably just live in a demographic that's more liberal than other places. Here in Orange County, which is a bright red dot in California, I've found several people against it. Most of them are ignorant as rocks as to the science behind it, but a few have been intelligent enough to give logical reasons against it (and btw, these people are against in vetro as well - that's how I usually win those arguements). Fortunately for people like us, congress should be taken back by the Dems in November so it will be possible to pass a bill for stem cell research even without Bush.

i know they exist, its just that i have yet to meet one that opposes it. i find that it really isnt about politics, its about intelligence.
the people that you "hear" about on the media that oppose it, they havent been educated in the matter and honestly that we are asking people to come in and donate their embroyos when they abort them. these people suddenly think "omigod i hate abortion and i hate this new stem cell stuff too."
they lack the understanding at what is really at stack, a bunch of cells.

you know, if stem cell research was approved, they could use stem cells off every newborn babys umbillicol cord instead of throwing it away. parents now have an option to freeze the cells on the cord and store them at a stemcell bank but its very costly (later for types of cancer like luekemia that the child or his siblings may later encounter). i say if parents are not going to save it, then this should be donated too. otherwise it is going in the trash.

 

[whistler]

Three things:

1. The stem cell bill was vetoed because Rove's strategy has been to paint Republicans as Christian crusaders and rile the evangelicals who haven't voted since the 1920's. It's worked. Despite the majority being for stem cell research and congress passing the latest bill, the strategy is to get that group to the polls rather than please anyone else.

2. There's no logical, let alone scientifically coherent, stance to take in support of not using stem cells destined for destruction. It's purely a religious argument. (see above) Do you have any idea how many embryos "die" simply when you're trying to conceive? Heck, even the Bible isn't clear on this. Wat about life at first breath?

3. Religion and politics. Diablo must be on vacation.

 

[PeterNorthisawesome]

Religion screws everything up... I haven't met one Christian who knew who wrote THE BIBLE and they still believe in that BS man MADE GOD JESUS WAS A JEW! I hate the ones who criticize other people for not believing it so they try to FORCE them to follow it. Anyways I support Stem Cell research cuz it's helpful research it's a "nesseccary evil" just like "animal and human experimentation." As long as the doner of the stem cell agrees to it and KNOWS what they're doing it's perfectly fine. Stem cells holds the key to regeneration and a lot of people would benefit if in the future they could figure out to genetically make organs, blood and tissue.

 

[Helter Skelter]

Helter Skelter I don't think the religious right is against preventing global warming - big business is the traditional culprit.

George W. Bush and his sheep, don't think global warming exist's. He also says the verdict is still out on evolution.

 

[Shiftkey]

2. There's no logical, let alone scientifically coherent, stance to take in support of not using stem cells destined for destruction. It's purely a religious argument. (see above) Do you have any idea how many embryos "die" simply when you're trying to conceive? Heck, even the Bible isn't clear on this. Wat about life at first breath?

It's only logical if you want to outlaw fertility clinics as well.

3. Religion and politics. Diablo must be on vacation.

I'm hoping that once he finds this thread he realizes we are not flaming each other. So far things have been very civil.

i know they exist, its just that i have yet to meet one that opposes it. i find that it really isnt about politics, its about intelligence.
the people that you "hear" about on the media that oppose it, they havent been educated in the matter and honestly that we are asking people to come in and donate their embroyos when they abort them. these people suddenly think "omigod i hate abortion and i hate this new stem cell stuff too."
they lack the understanding at what is really at stack, a bunch of cells.

I would love it if some rich guy made a comercial that ran through the basics to educate these people (since TV seems to be the only way most people learn about the issues). I can see it now:

"Do you think fertility clinics are a good thing? In vetro fertilization and other techniques make it possible for thousands of couples to have children that couldn't otherwise."

*pictures of happy families and newborn babies*

"What most people don't realize, is that in order for these techniques to work, dozens of unused embrios are made."

*picture of a blastocyst*

"These unused embrios, which are destined to be destroyed, can instead be used for stem cell research. Millions of people's suffering can be ended, and millions of lives could be saved."

*pictures of happy, recovering hospital patients*

"You don't have to be pro choice to be pro stem cell research. Abortion has NOTHING to do with it."

George W. Bush and his sheep, don't think global warming exist's. He also says the verdict is still out on evolution.

There's more to it than that. I'm the last person to support Bush, but I don't consider global warming to be the problem most people think it is either. Now I KNOW global warming exists. It's happened before in cycles - I've learned all about it in Oceanography class (in which the Professor himself convinced me about the myths of global warming). But to think people can cause it? That's giving us too much credit. There isn't any real data to support it if you look at the big picture. The only data we have is less than 100 years old, when the earth is billions of years old. I don't think we should pollute with impunity for many other reasons, so you won't ever see me protest against people worried about global warming, but there's more politics behind global warming than science.

 

[penkitten]

I would love it if some rich guy made a comercial that ran through the basics to educate these people (since TV seems to be the only way most people learn about the issues).

wouldnt that be nice?

 

[Helter Skelter]

But to think people can cause it? That's giving us too much credit. There isn't any real data to support it if you look at the big picture. The only data we have is less than 100 years old, when the earth is billions of years old. I don't think we should pollute with impunity for many other reasons, so you won't ever see me protest against people worried about global warming, but there's more politics behind global warming than science.

There's is no politics involved in the facts of global warming except with the right wing.

Our goverment chose not to be a part of the Kyoto Treaty which involves 37 countries to reduce gas house emissions.
As a member of the National Wildlife Federation and World Wildlife Fund and dozens more enviromental organizations global warming is a no brainer. It's a fact.
Bush has chosen not to particpate because he doesn't want to hurt the economy. He'd rather leave it to someone else to deal with down the road IMO.

Shiftkey, you also state the earth is billions of years old. Many right wing Bible holding christians like Bush think the earth is only 6,000 years old. That's a whole different topic. Bush is simply out of touch with reality on some of these issues.