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Squats Study

ArcBound

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http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/133028228.html

"The squat lift, an exercise that has long been a standard training technique for athletes, puts inordinate stress on the spine and likely is the cause of chronic stress fractures in young athletes.

That’s the conclusion of a study presented Wednesday at the North American Spine Society annual meeting.

Even when young athletes have textbook form in doing squats, they are risking a hard-to-heal stress fracture of the posterior lumbar spine structure known as the pars interarticularis.

The pars is the area of vertebra located between the upper and lower parts of the facet joint of the spine.

“These are high-risk lifts whether you’re a child or an adult,” said lead author John McClellan, a pediatric and adult spine surgeon at the Nebraska Spine Center in Omaha. “For years, coaches have blamed spinal fractures on kids’ poor weightlifting techniques, so we wanted to put that theory to the test.”

To do that, McClellan and his co-researchers enlisted 20 male athletes in their 20s, taking X-rays of them in various positions, including normal standing as well as doing front and back squats. They used a bar and weights totaling 95 pounds.

The exercises were done under the guidance of a physical therapist.

The most alarming finding was a change in the slope of the sacrum during a back squat, when the bar was across the upper back.

The average sacral slope increased from 41 degrees in normal standing to 68 degrees while doing a back squat and 58 degrees while doing a front squat, when the bar was across the clavicles.

...


Doctors said doing a similar type of exercise without weight is much less likely to cause pars stress fractures.

Rao said some people may be more predisposed to problems with the pars. Once a stress fracture occurs, he said, it can be very hard to heal.

However, changing attitudes of coaches and trainers is difficult, said Michael Reed, a physical therapist who specializes in the spine.

Part of the problem is the exercise is effective at strengthening muscles.

“The problem is, it can be very risky,” said Reed, who practices at the Hospital for Special Surgery Spine and Sport in Jupiter, Fla. “Even the best form will not protect you.”

Reed said he doubts many parents know how risky squats are. He said they probably rely on coaches and trainers who don’t fully understand the risks.

Reed said squats also pose risk for older adults, but the biggest concern is in people who are skeletally immature.

Indeed, squats are a part of training for many high school sports, added McClellan. Many kids start doing the exercises by age 13.

He said he has seen more than 500 kids with pars fractures and often they remember hurting themselves doing squats.

Invariably, coaches will blame the injury on bad form, he said. Now there is evidence that even good form puts the spine at risk, he said.

Once a pars fracture occurs, the chance of it healing is as low as 2%, he added.

Many of those people eventually will develop degenerative disc problems and a lifetime of low back pain, he said."

Stole this post off bodybuilding.com.
But basically even squats at low weights (95lbs) can change the slope of the sacrum and eventually lead to chronic lower back pain later in life.

The risk is still present even with perfect form. Younger people most susceptible but still can affect older people. Some people even have a predisposition to get fractures which makes it worse.
 

ArcBound

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Kerpal said:
Oh no! Why didn't anyone tell me this sooner? I will stop squatting immediately and switch to a safer bench + curls program instead!
I'm not saying this one study will make everyone quit squats, but the results of the study are worth considering. You can dismiss any evidence by making sarcastic/comedic remarks but it's not really conducive to understanding or debate.
 

escobar04

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Kerpal said:
Oh no! Why didn't anyone tell me this sooner? I will stop squatting immediately and switch to a safer bench + curls program instead!
as long as you curl in the squat rack you're good to go bro!

Who cares about legs, right?
 

Alle_Gory

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Kerpal said:
These studies are generally bull****, and are used by lazy people as an excuse not to squat, because squatting is hard but benching and curling is easy.
Squatting is also more complex and the average person will probably destroy something.
 

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Strelok

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A good solution for those who chose to avoid squats could be to grow some mass using leg presses and develop functional strengh and balance with lunges.

Mental strengh and anabolic stimulation coming from squat awfully cant be find in many other exercises.

About the big 3 topic, I find the hormonal stimulation from bench press and dead lifts to be a huge difference in my long term training process.
While pushing hard on deads I feel I get stronger also in muscles who are not involved in that.
 

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Espi said:
I appreciate the article.

It's always good to offer counterspectives, to question the normal order of doing things. I'm 40 and have been squatting for 6 years. I recently incurred some serious lower back pain, and it's made me re-think my entire workout plan. If you'd have posted this article a year ago, I wouldn't have even bothered reading it.
How often/how heavy do you squat? And do you think the lower back pain came as a result from squats or was it something else?

Kerpal said:
Then it's their own fault for doing it wrong. I'm tired of people ****ing up while doing something and then blaming it on the activity instead. It's really not that hard to research how to do something correctly before you do it.
The study used athletes, not the average person, and it said it was checked to make sure they had perfect form.

MikeBrown30 said:
Low-bar squats.
Explain?


For whatever it's worth I do squat, in fact 2x a week. I didn't post the article to suddenly tell everyone to stop squatting, it's just that when a scientific study comes out saying that a certain action I am doing can be very harmful for me in the long run, I tend to pay attention a little bit.
 

Colossus

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Espi said:
I appreciate the article.

It's always good to offer counterspectives, to question the normal order of doing things. I'm 40 and have been squatting for 6 years. I recently incurred some serious lower back pain, and it's made me re-think my entire workout plan. If you'd have posted this article a year ago, I wouldn't have even bothered reading it.

I'm inclined to agree with Espi and the study author on this one. I've been squatting for 10 years, and like him if you would have showed this to me a few years a go I probably would have scoffed it off like a dumb meathead. But I also recently had a pretty debilitating back injury---which thankfully I've been able to manage conservatively---that really made me rethink the risk/benefit ratio of spinal loading exercises, primarily the gold-standard back squat.

Anytime there is new evidence that puts the safety of an iconic lift in question, the weightlifting/BBing community scoffs at it and responds with the predictable "I've been doing it for X amount of time without any problems, therefore it's bullsh!t."

Lifters see an article like this, paraphrased in an online mag, fail to even read the actual abstract or paper, and immediately conclude doctorate-level scientists and experienced othropaedic surgeons dont know how to conduct a study and dont know what the fvck they are talking about. This is really ignorant and if you consider yourself an objective individual when it comes to training methodology, you owe new research due diligence by at least reading the study and taking it into context.

Rao, a professor of orthopedic surgery and neurosurgery at the Medical College of Wisconsin, would not go so far as to say squats should not be done at all, but athletes, especially younger ones, need to be cautious, he said.
This is the take-home. Heavy spinal loading exercises, namely the back squat, have been demonstrated, not speculated, to fvck lifter's backs up, and anyone who has been lifting for a while knows someone who has a chronic back problem or has experienced it themselves. That's not to say it's a foregone conclusion that heavy squatting will destroy your lumbar spine, but the more time you spend under heavy loads the less the odds are in your favor. Donnie Thompson, the current all-time squat record holder @ 1265 lbs I believe, had a near career-ending lumbar disc herniation a couple of years ago. He lost feeling on one of his legs and had no dorsiflexion in his left foot. Neurosurgery wanted to schedule him the next day in the OR. He didnt go through with it, and has apparently had pretty good success managing his injury conservatively with deloading and traction. In fact, if you look at recent literature conservative management of these types of injuries is--in most cases--just as efficacious and often MORE successful than back surgery. Spondylysis and spondylolisthesis CAN be managed well with conservative measures. It's not necessarily a game-ending injury, but it's not something you want either. Here's an AAOS link: http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00053.

I agree with the authors that the evidence is mounting that heavy back squatting is a high-risk movement for developing a chronic lower back injury. I stopped after my recent episode. I still squat, but not in that fashion. I know other powerlifters look at me like a puss because I dont squat heavy anymore, but guess how many fvcks I give? 0. Ze-ro. I still pull heavy and have great leg size, and with careful "pre-hab" and cycling of my deadlift movements I can lift virtually pain-free.
 

Alle_Gory

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Kerpal said:
Then it's their own fault for doing it wrong. I'm tired of people ****ing up while doing something and then blaming it on the activity instead. It's really not that hard to research how to do something correctly before you do it.
Oh really? Clearly you and I have a different opinion on how smart the average person is.
 

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Espi,

If you can locate a gym that has one, or afford one yourself, I highly recommend the belt squat apparatus. The best in thing ever invented for guys to train legs heavy without any spinal loading whatsoever. In fact it's spinal TRACTION, which is what you need. Your pain is definitely radicular (nerve root) in nature, probably due to disc herniation or spondylysis. Years of loading the spine with squats and leg presses will catch up to us all.
 

Bible_Belt

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Colossus said:
In fact, if you look at recent literature conservative management of these types of injuries is--in most cases--just as efficacious and often MORE successful than back surgery
As a side topic, back surgery and especially the fusing of vertebrae has a horribly low success rate. The majority of back surgeries fail. When two vertebrae are fused into one, the force exerted on the next one higher and lower is increased so much that they too will inevitably fail. Then the patient gets another surgery to fuse the two into four, the stress on the rest of the back grows even greater, and the second surgery fails even faster than the first. Eventually, the entire back gets fused into one, and you live life hardly being able to move at all.
 

Konada

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As much as I love doing back squats, I don't want to walking around with a ****ed up back in my 30s. So the key idea here is to do squats in moderation?
 
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Konada said:
As much as I love doing back squats, I don't want to walking around with a ****ed up back in my 30s. So the key idea here is to do squats in moderation?
Yea, what's the take home message from this? Is there an alternative method for doing squats that would offer a similar level of benefit with less risk? Or does the article and OP recommend switching from squats to leg press, curls, and extensions?
 
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user43770

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Rubato said:
Yea, what's the take home message from this? Is there an alternative method for doing squats that would offer a similar level of benefit with less risk? Or does the article and OP recommend switching from squats to leg press, curls, and extensions?
I'm not sure what this study actually proves. It says that squatting puts inordinate stress on the spine, but can't actually say that it leads to injuries. How do we know that these injuries aren't related to the sport these athletes are involved in? How many play a sport like rugby or football? Now look and tell me how many olympic lifters suffer from these kind of fractures. Also, doesn't 20 people seem like a small sample size?

Many people will read this article and use it to reinforce their beliefs that squatting is bad. Squats are a tough exercise, even when performed correctly. It's not surprising that many people don't want to do them. If you're seriously interested in squatting, I would suggest that you do some more research. Don't take this article as the holy grail.
 

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TyTe`EyEz said:
I'm not sure what this study actually proves. It says that squatting puts inordinate stress on the spine, but can't actually say that it leads to injuries. How do we know that these injuries aren't related to the sport these athletes are involved in? How many play a sport like rugby or football? Now look and tell me how many olympic lifters suffer from these kind of fractures. Also, doesn't 20 people seem like a small sample size?

Many people will read this article and use it to reinforce their beliefs that squatting is bad. Squats are a tough exercise, even when performed correctly. It's not surprising that many people don't want to do them. If you're seriously interested in squatting, I would suggest that you do some more research. Don't take this article as the holy grail.
You're right it is just one study, but it's not like the study was completed by idiots, but rather a hospital known for orthopedic surgery and etc. Like I said the point is not to stop completely doing squats, but just to aware people than squats do increase your risk of back injury without a doubt.

So maybe that means, if you are feeling back pain, or your family has a history of back problems you might want to ease off of the squats.

Obviously squats are some of the best mass gaining movements out there so I doubt they will disappear anytime soon, this just gives people more information so they can make a better decision on the cost effectiveness/potential risks of their workout.

I read this article but I'm still going to squat, maybe not as much, not as heavy and maybe looking into belt squat apparatus as Colossus pointed out. The fact is your body is your body, and you should consider the potential risks of anything you do to it.
 

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I wouldn't be against using a belt squat machine, but I don't know of any gym that has one and I don't have the space needed
to purchase my own.
 

EFFORT

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Jitterbug

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Name one exercise or sport that doesn't have the potential to fvck you up good.

Benching - the most popular lift - has fvcked so many shoulders but I don't see any research done to discourage people from doing it.
 

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I can't last recall the time when I saw someone actually perform a proper squat in the gym. I've probably not seen ten people during all my time training who have performed it as it should be performed. It seems people think squatting is easy, it's just sitting down and standing up but it's one of the most complicated lifts you can do in the gym.

I used to think that deadlifts were the villain behind my back pain but now when I switched my stances around I found that the squat was the reason I had lower back pain. I did it with improper form, quads were overtaking the lift and put pressure on the lower back even though I performed the lift good. Now I use a wide stance and can go ATG again with knees out and I havent felt back pain ever since.

I am certain that this study should be taken with a grain of salt. Most injuries are probably due to bad form or lifting too heavy too often but as with everything there are risks involved in lifting which needs to be considered. On the other hand, how many backs haven't been hurt because of sedentary jobs such as sitting in an office all day?
 

Quiksilver

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I'd have to actually see the squat form of people incurring these back injuries.

Squatting too deep can cause ''butt wink'' of the lower spine which is bad form and causes rounding of the lumbar spine. Caused by tight and under-flexible posterior chain especially hamstrings. That is generally at rock bottom, and the hamstring tightness should be addressed and remedied before going very heavy.

With regards to form, I think Mark Rippetoe says it best:

"If it's too heavy to squat deep, its too heavy to have on your back".

No doubt irresponsible training (in any sport) is a recipe for injury, and yes weight training is no exception.

If I loaded up 600lbs on a bar and tried to squat it tomorrow, I'd be lucky to come out without a serious injury. However in 7 years when I'm squatting in that ballpark, the odds of injury (stress-fracture or otherwise) are much less.

The only person I respect enough to take their initial word on something, is Charles Poliquin. If he says that squatting is bad for you, I'll sit up and listen.
 
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