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Sore as a mofo...
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Alpha male Female Catcher
Don Juan
I have read articles by supposed scientific experts claiming training to soreness is bad, I have also read articles by supposed scientific experts claiming that training to soreness I good (but no solid experimental evidence in either case). I tend to agree with the latter (but that is just my ‘hunch’). At any rate I have spent several years trying to train sufficiently hard to be sore for a couple of days afterwards and I certainly haven’t been getting any weaker or suffering symptoms of overtraining. In fact in my experience training to soreness is when I see gains. Hence I am always happy when I find I am sore the next couple of days after a work out because I know I have hit my muscles hard enough to grow bigger.
I would hypothesise (speculate) that as long as your muscles are sore they have the stimulus they need to grow bigger (they are injured, your body knows this and is in the state of repairing them and to a stronger state than they were before). So you don’t need to retrain them again while they are sore. As KiLLer above mentions you need to be giving them all the nutrients they need to do this repairing and growing stronger. I would not retrain them again until after they are no longer sore and fully recovered (otherwise you are at risk of overtraining), they should be fully recovered within a week. Again I would stress the eating bit that KiLLer does (and add it to it rest) but the end result should be a gain in muscle performance.
Don’t just take my word for it though. Get your own experimental data. Follow the cycle of training to soreness (you obviously have found a way to do this now) then resting until fully recovered while pigging out on food then training to soreness etc. Give it a month or two and after two months see if you have gained any size (apart from fat) and are any stronger or if you’ve lost size/strength. If you lose size (unlikely) then you will still recover what ever you lose (you won’t lose much in two months – in any case stop before you do lose much if you do indeed find you are going backwards). On the other hand if you gain size then you’ve found a way to gain size. Sometimes the only way to know if something works or not is to try it yourself for a while.
C_DUCTIV
Don Juan
Theres a difference between muscle soreness and muscle pain,
if u feel that dull soreness where u can hardly move yo arms, that is great get back into the gym and work them again.
they should get less sore as u go along.
but if there is a pain, like a sharp one whenever u move yo arms, jus rest them for a week, if it is still there u probably pulled it, u must recover!!
Muscle soreness is good but should not last for more than a week
if u feel that dull soreness where u can hardly move yo arms, that is great get back into the gym and work them again.
they should get less sore as u go along.
but if there is a pain, like a sharp one whenever u move yo arms, jus rest them for a week, if it is still there u probably pulled it, u must recover!!
Muscle soreness is good but should not last for more than a week
Phenomenom101
Don Juan
I don't know how to describe it but it has to do something with your muscles not getting enough oxygen. Usually if you notice in the morning you might wake up sore as heel but, if you maybe walk around a bit and work your muscles a bit your muscles aren't so sore anymore becouse your getting more oxygen to them. I'm sorry I can't go anymore into detail about this but it has to do about your muscles getting more oxygen to feel better.
Thanks guys. It's now 3 days later and they hurt worse then the first few days. I popped some ibuprofen, but it didn't help. This sh1t hurts. I am eating like a horse about 6 times a day and taking a protein supplement called designer whey a few times a day. I couldn't lift right now if my life depended on it. I can barely move my arms and my pecs are mad sore. I can't put a jacket on without making a face.
Apollo
Senior Don Juan
Pro, make sure you are drinking lots of fluids, mainly water and milk. Also next time stretch and warm-up/cool-down before and after working out.
Yeah I am drinking lots of water and milk. I also stretched a bit before and after the workout b/c I am big on stretching, I used to breakdance and stretch like a mofo every day. I'll try to stretch even more and add some more of a cool down as well. Thanks again guys.
DJ Girevik
Senior Don Juan
I've heard that high dosage glutamine before and after workouts makes muscle soreness almost impossible to get.
To respond to the high glutamine comment. If the guy thats sore is a beginner, or has taken some time off, the first week or so is going to cause pain as the tendons and ligaments get reacclimated to high intensity loads, muscles tend to grow faster than ligaments and tendons (the reason why extreme steroid use can cause the muscle to grow so large it rips from the tendons ala HHH's thigh injury). Try to avoid the sore muscle group until the pain goes away. As you get stronger, recovery times will shorten. I strongly advise staying away from "quick fix" supplements unless they are in addition to a well balanced diet and workout routine. If your the Bill Romanowski type I'd say do whatever works, but most people don't establish enough of a routine to get any benefits supplements. "Shocking" your body with creatine and all the other garbage is a waste of money for all but the most dedicated.
DIESEL
Master Don Juan
Pro..
DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness) is a beautiful thing. Sounds like you finally started lifting like a man. Keep up the good work, and keep lifting, the increased blood flow to the muscle, will cause them to heal faster.
D
DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness) is a beautiful thing. Sounds like you finally started lifting like a man. Keep up the good work, and keep lifting, the increased blood flow to the muscle, will cause them to heal faster.
D
One on One
Master Don Juan
Do you lift like once a year or something??? Get your rest and get ready for next year!
So clear this up for me. I was under the impression that you were to let the muscles heal to a point where they are stronger than they previously were before you want to start lifting again. It will be 5 days for me today and I am still having a hard time moving my arms like I used to. Mostly pec soreness.
Alpha male Female Catcher
Don Juan
Yes I believe this is the case. I believe that you should let the muscles heal to a point where they are stronger than they previously were before you want to start lifting again.
That being said, getting the blood flowing to the muscles again by working out again - lightly - not full on like last time- will get rid of the soreness quicker. Olympic swimmers often swim gentle laps of the pool after a hard race to prevent this soreness from happening in the first place. I do not deny that exercising your muscles again will improve blood flow to them and for that reason - improved blood flow - the soreness will heal quicker.
However I also believe that you don't want to really stress your muscles in the sense of breaking them down again until they are stronger than when you last exercised them. So to light exercises I say - yes (depending on sorness level), heavy exercises again - no, not until fully healed! (Your level of soreness sounds extreme and I really think you have probably overtrained).
My understanding of muscle growth is as follows. You stimulate muscle growth by exercising your muscles to the point where you actually damage them at the cellular level (damage the protein structure inside the muscle cells – the protein from the damaged structures being spit out in to the blood stream). Note microscopic tears confined to the internals of the muscle fibre cells which is good and is a 100% repairable is not to be confused with macroscopic tears across muscle tissue (including cell walls) which is bad and will leave permanent damage. After being damaged it takes time for the muscle cells to repair their internal damage. The muscle cells repair themselves to a state of greater strength than before they were damaged in the hope of staving of such terrible damage to themselves next time you exercise them (and hence we get the much desired increase in muscle size and strength). (It is a bit like an immune response to exercise).
Even without microbiology simple logic tells you that in order to grow stronger over the course of the year you need to grow stronger on average between each exercise work out. You can’t grow weaker form one individual work out to the next and yet expect that on average you will be growing stronger - obviously. This fact is not debatable unless you’re a moron. (An analogy for the really thick – if I have $100 in a bank account and each week I remove 20cents, after a year I will have less not more than $100 in my bank account).
We know from microbiology that when worked hard enough to stimulate muscle growth your muscles are actually weaker immediately after you have exercised them than they were before you exercised them. The healing of the muscles and then the further increase in their strength is not immediate but it takes time.
What is debatable is how long you have to wait until your muscles are stronger than they were when you last exercised them. Some people think that you can go full bore on your muscles again even while they are still sore (such people whether they know it or not, as explained above are essentially claiming that despite being still sore your muscles are already recovered damage wise and in fact already rebuilt to a state stronger than when you last exercised them). I beg to differ on this point. (Note it is anyone contending that you don’t have to wait till your muscles are recovered to the point of being stronger than when you last exercised them that I am accusing of being a moron not those who hold to the you can still exercise your muscles while sore view –they are just mistaken).
If your muscles are still sore and you are having difficulty moving them then I think it is likely that they are not fully recovered yet. (The people who think you can still exercise while sore obviously differ on this point – regarding the amount of recovery the muscle has experienced). I think that your body’s muscles make it painful for you to move them because they know (in a biochemical kind of way) that rest is what is best for them now.
Even if DOMS is related only to damage from oxygen starvation or what ever and not directly related to muscle damage/micro-tears from exercise – it is surely still a good indicator of how hard you have worked and hence how much damage has been done anyway. The two are surely going to parallel each other to some degree. Is it really plausible that damage from micro tears have been fully 100% recovered but not the damage from oxygen starvation – I doubt it. I
It can easily take seven to ten days for your muscles to fully recover and to a point of being stronger than before. In the mean time it is not good to stress them to point of “damaging” them further – not until they are fully recovered. Exercising them to a level that does not re-injure them (as in cause new micro tears) but rather gets the blood flowing to them to increase the uptake of nutrients to them and the expulsion of waste products/damaged protein from them will speed their recovery and get you healed from both DOMS and micro tears quicker. Listen to your body to work out where this level is.
I think most body builders under estimate the importance of rest and over train. To read more about the less is more view ala Mike Mentzer (and to see that I am not the only one that proposes the intense and brief workout followed by the long rest idea) go to this website.
http://www.mikementzer.com/ and then go to articles and then read Mike’s articles
NB: I have held my views regarding recovering periods (ie intense workout but long recovery period) long before reading the late Mike Mentzor’s site (which I only recently discovered) – I have been exercising 16 years myself and on a good day/(err year) I can press 165kg (not that far off the Australian record for my weight division which is around 220kg) – I can press 140kg any week in any state (and have been doing this year in year out) – how many other people can say that - I know my method works for me at least despite my really crap genetics.
The Max OT program mentioned in another set also seems to be a good description of the high-intensity/long-rest method. Note I think Mike Mentzer and co are going a bit to the extreme in advocating only 1 set per body part (or more than a week rest per body part). I still do at least 4 sets per body part (though after reading Mike’s site I am now going to experiment with 2 to 3 sets per body part per week).
I think 3 or 4 days of mild soreness is good but if your still very sore after 5 days then I think maybe you have overtrained a bit (unless you’re a rank beginner who has only just started heavy exercising in which case it would be normal) – maybe you don’t need to work quite so hard next time – in any case I would rest until things come good (and they will come good again unless you do something stupid like over train again right away). Do what you can with out pushing it to far to move those muscles and get the blood flowing to them. Good luck.