something for the under-18's

Warboss Alex

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#1
My friend A-Unit should have a field day with this one. :D

I see a lot of posts from people saying that they're on a low fat diet, cutting calories etc because they're overweight or want to get a sixpack. This is all well and good, but then I see the age of the post and it's 17, 16, 15 or even younger.

This is a crucial stage of your development (puberty) which will define how well developed and healthy you'll be in later life - you're developing until your early 20's remember. This is when you need calories and fats the MOST. Fats regulate the hormones in your body - and the hormones regulate growth!!

Nothing wrong with eating healthy, but eating healthy is NOT the government guidelines of 30g fat per day, high carbs etc. I look back to what I consider (in Britain) to be the healthiest generation: the post-war generation who ate no refined carbs but ate a lot of fatty meat, bacon, butter, fried foods, whole milk, eggs, cheese, cream, orange juice, vegetables, fruits, carb sources being potatoes for the most part. But their diets were HIGH in fat (saturated included) and they developed into a very robust, well developed generation. (I'd argue the milk part of course but my attention is more focused on the fats - including saturated - they consumed).

Then came the next generation who boatloaded the refined carbs (white bread) and cut out the fats: hello diabetes (among other things).

Oh and by the way, weight lifting does not stunt growth. If that were the case why do guys brought up on farms doing heavy lifting from an early age would end up scrawny and under-developed.. this is obviously NOT the case. Notice that farm boys often eat a lot of fatty foods as well. I wasn't brought up on a farm but did lots of physical work in my teens (carpentry, cementing, wheelbarrowing) AND ate a lot of 'inappropriate' foods (bacon, sausages, fried bread, butter, chicken skin, cheese) and when I left school I was bigger and stronger than 95% of the guys in the whole year.

Something to think about - the bottom line is that you NEED fats and calories to develop at this stage in your life, and unless you're naturally cut, 'dieting' to get a sixpack purely for impressing girls who you probably won't even want to know two months later is shortchanging your development, health and wellness. Don't deprive yourself of essential nutrients just to try and look good.. of course if you're 21+ and done developing, by all means go for it.
 

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Fender

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#2
Fats, here I come!!! Carbs, off you go!!! (apart from post workout of course)

Anyways, why don't you like milk warboss? Why drink nutrientless, calorie-free water when we could drink milk? (I'm bulking btw).
 

Warboss Alex

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#3
Fender said:
Fats, here I come!!! Carbs, off you go!!! (apart from post workout of course)

Anyways, why don't you like milk warboss? Why drink nutrientless, calorie-free water when we could drink milk? (I'm bulking btw).
because milk is ****. it's not meant for human consumption. baby cows, definitely! but not for humans. it gums up your intestines, interferes with digestion, adds a layer of stomach bloat/fat that mysteriously disappears when people cut out milk, and is full of sugar. everyone is lactose intolerant shortly after they come off their mother, it's just it's not so pronounced in some people.

for me drinking even skim milk sends me straight the toilet as well as upsetting people around me. same with cottage cheese. yogurt and fullfat cheese I'm fine with but these are low on lactose anyway.

if you don't mind the gas and bloating and the fat you'll likely gain, drink milk.. more power to you. but there's far superior sources of protein and calories out there.

water is calorie-free but has a whole host of benefits. dehydration means death to muscle gains.. much like green tea, no calories but there's so many reasons to drink it.
 

manuva

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#4
Warboss Alex said:
because milk is ****. it's not meant for human consumption. baby cows, definitely! but not for humans. it gums up your intestines, interferes with digestion, adds a layer of stomach bloat/fat that mysteriously disappears when people cut out milk, and is full of sugar. everyone is lactose intolerant shortly after they come off their mother, it's just it's not so pronounced in some people.

for me drinking even skim milk sends me straight the toilet as well as upsetting people around me. same with cottage cheese. yogurt and fullfat cheese I'm fine with but these are low on lactose anyway.

if you don't mind the gas and bloating and the fat you'll likely gain, drink milk.. more power to you. but there's far superior sources of protein and calories out there.

water is calorie-free but has a whole host of benefits. dehydration means death to muscle gains.. much like green tea, no calories but there's so many reasons to drink it.
Seconded. Dairy is white poison. The quicker you eliminate it from your diet, the healthier you become.

Excellent posts as usual Warboss.
 

spesmilitis

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#5
"Fats, here I come!!! Carbs, off you go!!! "

Noooo. . . .simple/refined carbs off you go. Say hello to complex carbs (wheat, oats, potatoes).

I'm sure by growth, they mean height. A lot of guys from my highschool, who did serious lifting starting at 7-9th grade, they turned out to be short. They ended up being 5'3" to 5'5" my senior guy. Maybe its just genetics, but I dunno. Look at some of your really buff seniors and see for your self.

Look at farm boy matt hughes of the ufc, he's a little shorter than most of the people in his weight class.
 

spesmilitis

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#6
Interesting note about refined breads: they used to be only for rich people. When they found a way to mass produce refined breads, everyone wanted to eat it since that was what the rich people were eating. However, refined breads are stripped of vitamins/fibers that are essential to the human diet. When people started consuming refined breads mostly, hella health problems broke out in america. Thats when they decided to enrich the breads with some of the nutrients takken out. People started returning to normal, but white bread isn't really as good as wheat bread. I've havn't eaten white bread for years.
 

Skilla_Staz

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#7
If lifting weights stunted your growth, many football players, and athletes in physical sports would be short.

I don't understand who came up with the idea that lifting stunts your growth. As far as I know, there is absolutely no correlation. Unless you walk around with weights on your head and shoulders, compressing your spine, then you should grow as normal.

Spes. In 6th grade I was 5'7, 125-130lbs. 7th grade. Same thing. 8th grade, now maybe 135. I didnt start actually lifting weights until 9th grade, and even then it wasn't really dedicated. However, I'm still only 5'9, 5'8ish. My genetics have caused me to be this way. Chances are thats the same deal with those guys.

Farm boy matt hughes is shorter than most people in his weight class because his genetics say he is. Theres always somebody shorter than average in every weight class. Doesn't mean that lifting stunted their growth. It's coincidental, nothing more as far as i know.

(Yeah WBA, I think you misunderstood the "stunt your growth" line though)
 

spesmilitis

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#8
There are some short people on the football and wrestling team in my highschool. The thing is, we don't really know if it was genetics or lifting. Unless there's study that looked at twins, we can't really know for sure.

It makes sense to me that lifting might stunt growth. Throughout the day, the average male shrinks about an inch. The water in the disks of the spine gets compressed from to gravity. You get it back after a good nights rest though. Thats why you might feel back pains if you go through period of very little sleep, such as finals week.

Now combine the regular compression you go throughout the day with the pressure put on the spine with squats and deadlifts. This is not good during a period when one's body tries to make small incremental gains in spine length. To me, its like working out a muscle that was just worked out the previous day; damaging the muscle when it should be nurtured.

For people under 16, I would reccomend execises that won't put too much pressure on the spine, like pull ups.
 

manuva

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#9
spesmilitis said:
There are some short people on the football and wrestling team in my highschool. The thing is, we don't really know if it was genetics or lifting.

It's genetics.

It makes sense to me that lifting might stunt growth.

It's an old wives tale. It doesn't stunt your growth. This has been conclusively proven many many times.
This topic keeps coming up. Stop perpetuating these old wives tales of lifting. It does not stunt growth.

So what if some kid lifted weights when he was fifteen and now is shorter than average?

I know a kid who ate bananas throughout his time at school, and he's now shorter than average. Should kids start avoiding bananas too?
 

MetalFortress

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#11
I started lifting heavy when I was 15. I stopped growing at around 15. Did lifting cause me to stop growing?

Hell no. It was genetics. My dad stopped at 16. My sister stopped at 13-14. And hell, I'm 6'1" anyways. I didn't really need anymore height. It took me years just to mentally grow into my own body - I was a damn awkward kid until age 17 or so.
 

developer

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#13
kickureface said:
can you explain all the got milk ads out there then?
That's obvious. Funded by the dairy industry ;-)

Look, it's just WA's preference AND his advice. I think he's right...
 

Adone

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#14
As I've said many times, I've always been a tall kid for my age, but I stopped growing when I started lifting at 15-yr-old at 5'8. My brothers, who never lifted, are 6'0 and 6'1 and still growing.

After four years of lifting, I stopped 6 months ago and I've gained almost a full inch, AFTER FOUR YEARS OF GROWTH ZERO.

Maybe this is all just a BIIIIIIIIG coincidence, but I won't lift seriously until I am 21 or I've gained another inch.

Just Muay Thai and Boxe for me.
 

Fallen33

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#15
I guess I'm in the minority then. I'm only 17 and I'm scrawny as hell. I will guarentee you I can eat more than anyone else in this thread though. (damn high metabolism lol)

I'm not trying to lose weight I'm trying to bulk up. I've been eating pretty much exactly what you listed and exercise more. I'm taking a weight training class at my Gym right now and soon I'll have a set routine for lifting 4 days a week. Good hearty food is what makes you gain mass and thats all I've been eating. I'm set on improving myself.

So no worries about stunting my growth and development here.
 

A-Unit

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#16
Re:

Seconded. And Thirded.

Teens at that age can pretty much eat what they want, and with the influx of hormones and activity, it won't be deposited as fat. Muscle will naturally come, but you can improve your strength, your tendons and ligaments, and learn the major exercises that will comprise the bulking of your lifting career, NOW.

I haven't had milk in months. I do occasionally consume cottage cheese and pizza, but it's rare. Cottage cheese, maybe a tub here or there?

Get your fats and protein, and THEN supplement with carbs. At the very least, throw in a serving of whole grain rice, a piece of fruit, or whole wheat/whole grain bread. We all crave it, and we all need, but eat your ESSENTIAL macros first, and then, with whatever space you can stomache, down some carbs. If you're involved in heavy sports, then you'll be able to consume whatever and know you're going to burn it (football, track, hockey, etc). Your diet becomes more important THEN, because not getting ENOUGH calories is the risk here.

Regarding milk...the ads you see is based on MONEY. The GOV already buys tons of milk to subsidize farmers; whatever isn't bought by the public is bought by the GOV to keep the dairy industry moving. Besides, like soda, milk IS engineered. In this case, the cattle/calf is the product, and to get the most profit per cow/calf, they have to be extremely large, produce high quantities of milk, and produce it frequently. TO do this, cows are given hormones to make them grow large QUICKER and to produce more milk faster. They're also given antibiotics to keep them healthy longer. It all results in one helluva of frankenstein beast. All the hormones trickle down to US, and the result is, well, super human women, growing breasts at 10, and having periods at 8. It also means extended consumption yields some pretty sickly results, such as heart problems and cancer.

When you break apart milk, it contains NOTHING you can't have anywhere else. The only downfall might be your morning cereal, or your coffee. Cheating with ice cream is ok, since most only do it once a month, but milk is a staple of the Western diet, and thus can be counted as contributor to our poor body composition and healthy.

Milk...

- Known for calcium, but without equal parts Magnesium, the Calcium isn't absorbed anyways. That means, if there's 500mg of Calcium in milk, there are also has to be 500 mg of Magnesium, or you won't uptake it anyways. Wonder why women have osteoporosis? Probably, because they assume that at least milk provides calcium, so they drink it and don't supplement with a calcium pill.
- Known for Protein. Relative to the carbs and fat present, Milk is more of a CARB drink, than a protein drink, and if it has high protein, low carbs, and low fat, one could call it a PROTEIN SHAKE, and therefore, isn't milk.
- Known for Fat. The fat in milk is BAD fat. It's totally Saturated Fat, and makes up the large %. Even when it's 2% or so, as a % of the calories in 1 glass, it can be up TO HALF the calories of a class @ 8oz. It's more of a MILK shake or CARB drink than anything else.
- The rest is water. So it's mostly water, fat, and carbs, and offers no material benefits to the drinker. Why would you drink it except out of habit? You might as well have soda, which doesn't have bad fats in such a high %, doesn't contain hormones that can wreak havoc with the body, and about the same in sugars.(I'm not advocating it, but they're not far off).

You won't here about this because it's been lobbied against and paid for so nobody knows. Years ago, a story on Monsanto, a major hormone producer for the farming industry (cows and crops) was being conducted by Fox investigative news sources. Before it was aired, the producer and manager received alot of heat from lawyers and the networks, because milk producers pay for ALOT of advertising, and airing such a story would cost the network MILLIONS in advertising. The story was requested to be altered, but the journalists refused. They went back and forth for awhile, before the network just decided to bury the whole thing.

Milk isn't like Essential Amino acids, vitamins, or good fats; it does not contain ANYTHING that can be considered essential or material. Moreover, if you examine the composition of BREAST MILK, most of it is in fact GOOD fats (mono and poly unsatured) and PROTEIN, few carbs. The composition is totally different. We could theoretically drink ANY milk, but it might not be nutritious or it might make us sick. Milk was just the preferred source, but it's not necessarily good for us. It's more habit and advertising than anything. Worse yet, is that its made in many of our everyday things, and so people allergic to it suffer mightily.

Great post, WBA.

A-Unit
 

spesmilitis

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#17
I don't think all weight lifting is bad when you're young, just exercises that put pressure on the bones, especially the spine.

In fact, I went through huge bursts of growth in 9th grade after I started doing pull ups, push ups, and situps in my room. I used the the shortest guy in my school at 4'11"-5'0, then suddenly I was normal height at 5'6". I'm 5'8 now. I think it might have been the pull ups. That exercise pulls on the spine, not compresses it, so it might aid in growth.
 

A-Unit

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#19
Re:

That's pretty close to water, but if you enjoy a good cereal, health-wise, it's a nice buy. I've also done Rice Milk, which sounds hippieish, but I do like cereal from trader joe's and tire of oats and oatmeal. I'd say in order or worst to better/best...

1. Whole Milk
2. Reduced fat milks
3. Soy Milk
4. Hormone Free milks
5. Rice milk

I've yet to find anything that goes well with cereal beyond those types of milk. Not everything is bad, these foods aren't poison, but in constant doses over many years, they do contribute to minor, then major health problems. The fact women don't consume calcium pills, and the overall fact they're feminine (calcium depletion corresponds to estrogen and female hormones, so they lose more quickly), sheds light on the fact milk isn't what it's cracked up to be. Rather vitamins are NEEDED b/c our food isn't what it used to be, many vitamins don't get into the body to begin with, are damaged via the processing of the food, or are lacking in essential nutrients to enable their absorption (such as magnesium and calcium).

Cereal, unless it's got fiber and made from whole wheat, is essentially sugar. I remember being younger and eating Frosted Flakes and Milk; know wonder I was a bit chubby when I was young! I effectively had 100g of sugar at breakfast. Kids don't have ADD, they're wired b/c most breakfasts given to kids are LOADED with sugar. Couple that with the fact that most schools are built like military camps, and obviously kids aren't going to excel to their potential peak level.

The most nutritious carb breakfast I know is Quick Oats, with steamed/boiled water, cinnamon and Stevia (healthy sugar substitute made from herbs, not widely sold). The over sugar is only what the Oats provided, it's tasty, to a point, and backs alot of fiber and good, slow absorbing carbs. There are other types of breakfast, this is just fast, cheap, and healthy.

PROPER weight lifting is good. In fact, it would be recommened kids do SQUATS, DEADS, and some type of chest exercise, such as DIPS, since this is what kids on farms would have done anyways. What's the alternative, a steady diet of video games b/c we don't want "stunt their growth", but we will "stunt their mind?" It's a good excuse and cop out so kids don't do any work, and to make them fatter. Parents freak out b/c they're afraid of them getting hurt, and in the process, you stunt their EMOTIONAL and MENTAL development MORE so than you do by having them avoid anything of physical pain.



A-Unit
 

Skilla_Staz

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#20
spesmilitis said:
I don't think all weight lifting is bad when you're young, just exercises that put pressure on the bones, especially the spine.

In fact, I went through huge bursts of growth in 9th grade after I started doing pull ups, push ups, and situps in my room. I used the the shortest guy in my school at 4'11"-5'0, then suddenly I was normal height at 5'6". I'm 5'8 now. I think it might have been the pull ups. That exercise pulls on the spine, not compresses it, so it might aid in growth.

It doesn't techinically pull on the spine. I just decompresses your spine for the short time you're hanging. Exercises don't affect your overall height. If they did, people would be tall as all hell, or short as all hell.

How tall you get is based basically on your genetics. The pituary gland, "growth plates" etc, isn't anything you can honesty take control of, as far as I'm aware.
 
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