Should I stop working arms?

[SamMalone]

I workout 4 times a week (days 1 and 3 backs, biceps, and shoulders and day 2 and 4 chest and tris with legs on 2 of the days). Anyways, I can make gains but my arms just don't get better. I've been reading and think maybe I've been overtraining them? Should I stop working them out and just get the workout from back and chest to do it or what?

 

[EFFORT]

search for where to start and simple starting diet

 

[Mad Manic]

I workout 4 times a week (days 1 and 3 backs, biceps, and shoulders and day 2 and 4 chest and tris with legs on 2 of the days). Anyways, I can make gains but my arms just don't get better. I've been reading and think maybe I've been overtraining them? Should I stop working them out and just get the workout from back and chest to do it or what?

No you're undertraining them by not doing enough direct arm work and drop sets, mix of low and high reps, higher volume, supersets etc. Do an arms day with lots of sets and some intensity methods and you'll get better results. People buy into the low volume stuff because it's easy and involves less effort and gym time. Those same people proportionately rarely have good arms/physique. And since when does reducing training on them = more gains? Unless they are really sore which I doubt? I bet you daren't do that with leg training on here lol.

MM

 

[mrRuckus]

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3386

While volume training is responsible for most of the pro's physiques, it is the same protocol that has almost every gym in the world full of guys mostly spinning their wheels going nowhere. Look around you in the gym. How many guys are even remotely big and moving big poundage's? The vast majority of these guys don't even look like they lift at all. But truth of the matter is they are there almost every day.........and therein lies the problem.

The #1 reason people fail to add size and strength is over-training. In many cases it goes hand in hand with under eating/not having the macro, and micronutrient profiles even close. It is certain no matter how perfect the routine, growth will be slow or nonexistent if you don't fuel it. If diet isn't there you might as well stay home.

But will an optimal diet allow you to actually increase your volume and frequency? In almost every case the answer is yes, with a perfect diet you will raise the threshold. What varies a HUGE degree is how much of an increase occurs. Some a little, some quite a bit, but what's universal is the fact that if you picked a 100 people at random, at your average gym without any bias used in the selection process, you will find pure volume training will not work for the overwhelming majority.

And please all you volume junkies; I'm not bashing it. It works absolute WONDERS for those that respond to it. Unfortunately most people just don't have the innate capacity to recover from true volume work. I work with people all the time that aside from the initial gains they got when they started training have barely gained an ounce in YEARS, and for many that saw a steadily increasing scale, they ended up fat with no appreciable muscle to show for it. And again, volume guys reading this that can't wait to finish this to start slamming me; VOLUME FLAT OUT WORKS for a small percentage of the overall populace. Most of the true “monsters” I have met do volume work, as do most of the pro's. Guess what? Not everyone has this capacity, MOST DON'T.

I train people and exchange info with folks all across the globe, and it is sickenly common to hear from guys that have been killing their selves in the gym forever with such pitiful results they hate to admit they weight train. Or the guys that put on enough muscle when they first started training that they got a taste for what they no longer seem to be able to have, more muscle. It's great when everyone comments on how big your getting, and how great you look. And it sucks when no one says a word anymore because you haven't changed a bit in like…….FOREVER!

Then you get these guys doing a SIMPLE routine with a handful of basic compound movements (more or less dependent on the individual, but nothing compared to volume) spread out over 2-3 times a week, and even less for some people, and they add 20-30 lbs of muscle in a short period of time.

Keep doing the endless sets to assure all aspects of the muscles are fully stimulated or whatever bull**** reason you want to do that many sets and they continue to be stalemated with both poundage progression and size gains. What works for a few is pure poison for the masses. Pick up a copy of Brawn by Stuart McRobert. Or read some of Mentzers early stuff, Dorian Yates stuff, or better yet read Doggs “cycles for pennies” thread on:

http://www.animalkits.be/

under the “realm of dogg and iron addict” and you will see some real world results of what low volume does for guys that just wont grow

 

[Mad Manic]

Are you being sarcastic? I seriously can't tell.

No of course not, where's the logic in not training them to get bigger gains? Compounds don't really work arms that well at all, I've yet to ever meet a person with proportionately decent arms (to torso, weights shifted, time spent working out, etc) who didn't do a lot of direct arm work. If the OP was training his arms HARD but getting bad results as they were sore and the lifts weren't increasing, yes, cut back. But he's not, he's relying on compounds for growth in his arms which is a poor idea. Low volume, short, 2/3 day routines are popular because they are easy and very stickable for the average gym user wanting to look a bit better. Not because they're the best. Less rarely means more results, if ever. Squats have little effect on arms. However they are a great leg mass builder. The testosterone benefits are insignificant and it's BS that compounds = big arms.

MM

 

[Quiksilver]

Do these claims have any backing, Mad Manic, or are they just what feels logical to you?

 

[Being_the_Don]

No of course not, where's the logic in not training them to get bigger gains? Compounds don't really work arms that well at all, I've yet to ever meet a person with proportionately decent arms (to torso, weights shifted, time spent working out, etc) who didn't do a lot of direct arm work. If the OP was training his arms HARD but getting bad results as they were sore and the lifts weren't increasing, yes, cut back. But he's not, he's relying on compounds for growth in his arms which is a poor idea. Low volume, short, 2/3 day routines are popular because they are easy and very stickable for the average gym user wanting to look a bit better. Not because they're the best. Less rarely means more results, if ever. Squats have little effect on arms. However they are a great leg mass builder. The testosterone benefits are insignificant and it's BS that compounds = big arms.

MM

Lifting heavy on deadlifts and squats still boost T- levels which leads to overall growth. I'm noticing that myself. And for me maintaining a lean muscular physique is more important than becoming bulky. But I do direct arm work as well to get best results all around.

 

[EFFORT]

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3386

Well thats the end of it manic, no way you have more real world experience and knowledge than Wes.

 

[Mad Manic]

Well thats the end of it manic, no way you have more real world experience and knowledge than Wes.

Right, and this guy has better arms than the BBers out there with the big guns? Ohh of course, let's discredit their training, it's all roids haha. Whatever. I still find it rare to see a guy with decent arms proportionately who doesn't do much direct work. The guys with arms 18+ either do a lot of direct arm work or have enormous lifts on compounds. The latter is the inefficient way.

MM

 

[Mad Manic]

Do these claims have any backing, Mad Manic, or are they just what feels logical to you?

Yes, if you work a muscle, rest it, feed it, it grows. That doesn't happen with secondary compound stress and ditching direct work to watch more TV. I've yet to see someone with big guns who got them within 2 years of training and doesnt have insane genetics or insane lifts on compounds. I HAVE met guys with 'alright' lifts on the compounds, 'alright' genetics who did a lot Of direct work etc. and have quite a decent set of guns though.

MM

 

[Mad Manic]

Lifting heavy on deadlifts and squats still boost T- levels which leads to overall growth. I'm noticing that myself. And for me maintaining a lean muscular physique is more important than becoming bulky. But I do direct arm work as well to get best results all around.

Those exercises lead to overall growth because they work most muscles of the body. The test level thing is very minor and there have been no studies/experiences that show these lifts aid arm growth. A muscle must be stimulated directly (that is, working in an exercise, not 'isolation' per se). It won't magically grow if it hasn't been stimulated because you've done squats. But yes it's good to work muscles with isolations too.

 

[Drum&Bass]

Squats have little effect on arms. However they are a great leg mass builder. The testosterone benefits are insignificant and it's BS that compounds = big arms.

Yea, when I first started lifting all I ever really focused on was squatting and deadlifting. Some guys may grow from doing all that stuff but for me personally it only benefited my legs and forearms and I ended up with a muscular imbalance. There great exercises but as I've said before...there is WAY to much emphasis on squatting and deadlifting on the internet.

ALL exercises are equally important and you should do your best to try and exercise all your muscles once a week.
...and remember just because your biceps, triceps or shoulders aren't as big as your chest or legs doesn't mean you shouldn't work them directly..Hell, I do dips with chairs at home in my free time, so its not like you have to dedicate a ton of time to your smaller muscles but you should work them !

 

[EFFORT]

Right, and this guy has better arms than the BBers out there with the big guns? Ohh of course, let's discredit their training, it's all roids haha. Whatever. I still find it rare to see a guy with decent arms proportionately who doesn't do much direct work. The guys with arms 18+ either do a lot of direct arm work or have enormous lifts on compounds. The latter is the inefficient way.

MM

Something makes me think you didn't read the OP

 

[Mad Manic]

Something makes me think you didn't read the OP

I did, I know he works arms but at the end of sessions to finish them off. I think training them fresh and doing more direct work/intensity methods is a good idea personally. That's how nearly everyone else with proportionately big arms in a decent time frame got them, just like BBers too.

 

[Mad Manic]

I never do direct arm work and my arms have gotten a lot bigger. I only do compounds.

That's fine, but I believe that if you did direct work too they'd be even bigger.

MM

 

[EFFORT]

I did, I know he works arms but at the end of sessions to finish them off. I think training them fresh and doing more direct work/intensity methods is a good idea personally. That's how nearly everyone else with proportionately big arms in a decent time frame got them, just like BBers too.

My fault when i said OP i was refering to what ruckus posted from ironaddicts.com

 

[Mad Manic]

My fault when i said OP i was refering to what ruckus posted from ironaddicts.com

Ok, yes I read it and I agree with certain parts and not with others.

It said that what works for the pros rarely doesn't work for the typical gym goers; I think that's because the pros but 110% into it whereas gym users have poor routines, poor diets and a lack of effort whether high or low volume.

He then said that the main reason is overtraining, or what he thinks is under-eating and under-sleeping. I agree, so again why does this render high volume routines bad? Because average gym users can't handle them and progress due to a lack of application? Their fault, not the routines.

I then agree that if a person is applying himself his routine can have more volume and that it varies from person to person. I've yet to meet someone who genuinely can't handle 4 days per week weight training with an arm day unless they are really fat or whatever. I think people pick a low volume 2/3 day easy routine, never go to failure, finish in 45 min when there is more left in them and make sub-optimal gains. These routines don't fully wear down fibres. I've yet to meet someone with a great physique who got it off a basic compound 2/3 dayer.

He then says that volume works for a few but not for many. I'm going to make a big guess here, but that these volume routines he used were poorly thought out without much emphasis on strength progression. The way I do it, I do my basic exercises at the start on heavy reps then finishing on say 10 reps on my final set. I'll then do assistance exercises on medium reps, then isolations and drop sets on higher reps. The first part of the workout is mainly strength, it then progresses into volume and intensity. So I know I'm improving as long as my Squat, Bench, SLDL, Chins, Dips, OH Press etc improve and the rest is to fully wear down fibres and gain more hypertrophy.

He then says guys doing the basic routines then add 20-30 lbs in x time frame or whatever and make gains. Well go back to my above point and to the fact that weight gains are about a calorie surplus anyway. And also the fact that even if they gain this amount, there are lots of people who gain on back and legs but then have to revert to a BBing routine because their upper pecs, arms, lats and delts lag or whatever.

MM

 

[strong like bull]

"I workout 4 times a week (days 1 and 3 backs, biceps, and shoulders and day 2 and 4 chest and tris with legs on 2 of the days). Anyways, I can make gains but my arms just don't get better. I've been reading and think maybe I've been overtraining them? Should I stop working them out and just get the workout from back and chest to do it or what?"

so just to clarify... youre doing back, bis and shoulders twice a week, chest and tris twice a week, and legs twice a week?

if thats the case i dont think you should necessarily stop specifically workin' your guns but it does seem like youre overtraining. i think no muscle group should be neglected... but think about the practical reality of the situation:

youre blasting your back/bi/shoulders on the first day
then the next day youre blasting chest/tris which puts a lot of indirect stress on shoulders
then youre repeating the back/bi/shoulders ... and doin' chest/tris again ... and throwin in two leg workouts in between ...

do you think your body is getting the proper recover it needs?

something that might benefit you is a split that involves explosive lifts, compound lifts as well as assistance and isolation exercises. also time in between to rest your body.

such as:

day1 - PULL - all pull movements
--------------------
PullUps (widegrip & chinups too) OR PullDowns
Hang Cleans OR HighPulls & Shrugs
Bent Rows (barbell or dumbell) OR Seated Rows
Curls (hammer and barbell or hammer and preacher)
Wrist Curls/Grip Training ( such as grip station, plate pinches, barbell holds, etc)


day2 - LEGS
-------------------
Squat OR Deadlift
Barbell/Dumbell Step Ups OR Leg Press
Calve Raises
Lateral Lunges
Abs (such as hanging leg raises, decline situps holdin' 25 or 45lb plate, side bends, etc)


day3 - PUSH - all push movements & shoulder iso
------------------
Push Press OR Push Jerk OR Military Press OR Bench Press
Dips OR Skullcrushers
Flyes
Variations of Laterial Raises w/ Cable Stations
Rotator Cuff Work

a day or two of cardio in between, but those are the only days you lift for the week. 3. ideally it would be something like:

mon - pull
tues - off
wed - legs
thurs - off
fri - push
sat - cardio
sun - off

throw in a couple other exercises here and there, rotate some lifts in and out to keep things fresh and thats about it. for the most part each lifting day works and strengthens just about every practical movement that your body will have to make. theres a mix of explosive/power lifts and core/compound lifts to build strength, power and bodybuilding lifts to keep you well rounded.

also important is that when you have a heavy upper body day, whether its pushing or pulling movements, it indirectly works (STRESSES) a lot of the same muscles. heavy hang cleans and rows puts a lot of stress through your shoulders similar to heavy bench presses and dips. your body needs time to recover. thats why you do upper body, rest, legs, rest, upper body.

of all the splits ive been on this has to be the most productive and effective, for me. on this split when i wanted to i went from 217 to 245. of course diet plays a large part of that, but the fact of the matter is on other routines and especially the high volume ones, my body just wouldnt grow no matter how much i tried to eat. in fact i was usually so burnt out that i didnt even have an appetite and i couldnt put on weight to save my life.

nowadays ive slimmed back down to 225 and focus a lot of flexibility and functionality more than massive size and brute strength... but i have to admit, when i was gunning for it it was a lot of fun being able to do 135lb barbell curls for sets of 8

good luck

-SLB

 

[EFFORT]

I'm going to make a big guess here, but that these volume routines he used were poorly thought out without much emphasis on strength progression.
MM

This is a pretty ignorant thing to say, had to stop reading after that.

 

[Mad Manic]

This is a pretty ignorant thing to say, had to stop reading after that.

Well they can't be too well thought out if they weren't working for most of his clients lol.

MM