Romance novels are proof of what?

[Stagger Lee]

First, I'm of the school of thought that attraction can not be created unless it's already there. Word choice and tactics can't create attraction, but can increase or kill it. Attraction is primarily her response to your appearance.

However, it generally accepted in the mainstream and in pick up circles that women get sexually turned on by words and ideas (whereas men are mostly turned on visually). This may be where the myth or confusion that women do not care as much about looks originates. My argument is they care a lot about looks maybe moreos than men but also require words (conveying of personality) to get the attraction going into a sexual response.

I guess where I'm going with it is, women have an undeniable strong tendency to read romance and sexual stories and they get turned on by it. In other words women are as lustful or more than men. Yet don't seem nearly as open to actually physically acting on that lust as men are. And also is there anything in romance novels that would be useful as conversational material or is all just a bunch fantasy stuff that would not apply in real life interactions.

 

[Mike32ct]

First, I'm of the school of thought that attraction can not be created unless it's already there. Word choice and tactics can't create attraction, but can increase or kill it. Attraction is primarily her response to your appearance.

Exactly.

However, it generally accepted in the mainstream and in pick up circles that women get sexually turned on by words and ideas (whereas men are mostly turned on visually). This may be where the myth or confusion that women do not care as much about looks originates.

A lot of people have a vested interest in keeping the "looks don't matter (much)" myth alive. I will list those...

1. Hot guys want to believe they have "great game" because it is a bigger ego boost to believe they have magic "swagger/confidence/charm" or whatever you want to call it, than just accept that their looks did 85% of the work for them. (Remember that looks aren't always aesthetic handsome looks. It could be as simple as being tall or having broad shoulders or sexy hair or a really masculine face or just a bad boy look.)

2. Women want to keep the looks thing quiet because they hate to look shallow, even though they are.

3. Less attractive guys really want to believe that looks don't matter because it gives them "hope."

4. Pickup gurus want #3 men as customers/clients, so they keep telling you that looks don't matter.

5. Academic nerdy types point to research that shows that a guy's looks aren't necessarily number one to find a woman for a relationship. This is TECHNICALLY true. But, they neglect the research that shows that it's a TWO TIER system. For a ONS or FWB or STR thing, the guy's looks are SUPER CRITICAL. For a relationship, his looks are important, but there is some "wiggle room" if you have other things going for you.

My argument is they care a lot about looks maybe moreos than men but also require words (conveying of personality) to get the attraction going into a sexual response.

Words can fan the flames of desire if she is ALREADY attracted to you. But if you try those words on a girl that isn't attracted to you, it can be creepy, presumptuous, and even offensive.

I wouldn't say that "words are required to get the attraction going into a sexual response." Although it can absolutely help.

Notwithstanding, in some cases, it's not even necessary to say a word about sex or be super charming before pulling a ONS if she's really into your looks. You could have a very boring conversation about nothing and leave together.

The night of my last pull (almost 2 years ago), I actually ran really sh*tty game. I was tired and not "in state" at all. Me and this HB8 talked about the lamest most boring stuff possible. No jokes. No smiles. Plenty of dead silences spots in the conversation. It was more dry than a business meeting with the boss. But when I asked her to leave with me, she said "Sure." The only thing I did "game-wise" was KINO ESCALATE by rubbing her thigh. It was 75 to 80 percent my looks (at the time), 15 percent kino escalation, and a little bit for lame verbal game lol.

Personality is very helpful as long as you meet the looks requirements. My only point is sometimes you will see "no game" pickups just based on two people that are horny AND are strongly attracted to each others' looks.


I guess where I'm going with it is, women have an undeniable strong tendency to read romance and sexual stories and they get turned on by it.

They do. It's porn for women.

In other words women are as lustful or more than men. Yet don't seem nearly as open to actually physically acting on that lust as men are.

Women are very horny, but they keep it BOTTLED UP for the right guy and the right moment.. They WANT to get RAILED by the RIGHT GUY at the RIGHT MOMENT when SHE FEELS LIKE IT.

And also is there anything in romance novels that would be useful as conversational material or is all just a bunch fantasy stuff that would not apply in real life interactions.

It's difficult to use erotic stories in regular conversation because it's not easy to transition into them without sounding creepy. Even if she is attracted, you still need to have some discretion as far as WHEN to use this stuff.

The best way is over the phone or text when she's relaxing in bed. Women are much more open to this during "pillow talk."

I used to meet chicks from online, say m atch. Have maybe one or two phone conversations, possibly a date or not.

Then I'd call her (or text more so nowadays) about 9:45 / 10 pm. It's late, but she's still up, probably watching tv or reading a book in bed. I would start out with a few innocent questions about her "relaxing" and "being comfortable in bed" and slowly transition into an erotic fantasy about what we COULD BE doing together.

I got REALLY GOOD at phone sex, and pretty good at text sex where they would masturbate, get soaked and climax on the other end, and sometimes invite me over asap. Or if she didn't invite me over asap, she was at or close to DTF for our next date. If she falls asleep after an orgasm that YOU CAUSED, she will remember you and think about you a LOT.

You might ask, "Well Mike, if you are so good at phone/text sex, why do you use it get laid and break that dry spell?"

The answer is I don't have any possible plates right now to try it on. She still needs to be fairly attracted to you. You can't try this on low interest women. As soon I have someone to try it with again, I will.

So yes, the "romance novel" stuff can sort of work, but YOU have to be the AUTHOR reading her (or texting her) you own material.

Stagger Lee: You can PM me for details. I don't want to post my "routines."

 

[Stagger Lee]

Great reply Mike, I agree with just about all your points made as well.

I was mostly thinking of conversation ideas from romance novels as something to use as conversation material on cold approach or date, of course on females that are already attracted/interested because of your appearance as always. I don't know squat about what's in romance novels that gets women so turned to be honest.

I hadn't thought of using it as texting or internet messaging material, although it would probably be much easier to do than in person. My game is almost always to message casually/nonsexual and get them in person. My experience and belief was that even if they are turned on by the sexual messages and texts or "sexting", they will chicken out or have cold feet or "anti-slut defense" and be more likely to flake on a meet up. Which leads me to something else you said.....

The night of my last pull (almost 2 years ago), I actually ran really sh*tty game. I was tired and not "in state" at all. Me and this HB8 talked about the lamest most boring stuff possible. No jokes. No smiles. Plenty of dead silences spots in the conversation. It was more dry than a business meeting with the boss. But when I asked her to leave with me, she said "Sure." The only thing I did "game-wise" was KINO ESCALATE by rubbing her thigh. It was 75 to 80 percent my looks (at the time), 15 percent kino escalation, and a little bit for lame verbal game lol.

Honestly that's how I had operated in virtually all of my meet ups. I might not even ever kino or touch the girl. Pretty tame conversation, silence spots, have a few drinks and ask to go back to her place. It seems like 50-80% or more of the time that worked. With my hair thinner it seemed like it completely stopped working lol.

But still, as much as I agree looks can get you laid practically all by itself, women still do require some words and conveyance of personality before wanting to have sex. Provided you meet the minimum appearance need to cause attraction and depending on how attractive you are, you're verbal and personality aspects can help maximize that potential. I think most of the pua stuff is off the mark and doesn't work or is counterproductive. Maybe just some good flirting material would do the trick.

It's a lot to think about, and maybe my standard approach of not verbalizing sexual topics and being a challenge is a better way to go anyway.

 

[Mike32ct]

Thanks Stagger.

I hope I didn't sound like I was knocking verbal game. I'm not. Verbal game can be GREAT as long as the guy meets the looks requirements.

With my hair loss, I can't do "no game" pickups anymore. I have to at least try to game when I sense at least some interest.

When a guy (say a PUA) tries to use verbal game on an uninterested female, at BEST her gives her free entertainment and at worst annoys her.

You made a great point about how erotic stories might lead to ASD or LMR. My experience is it depends on her age/maturity. Yes, younger women, while they get turned on by it, can just as easily get scared off. I tried it on a 25 yo. She got quite turned on over the phone (and told me she was "putty in my hands.). But on some level, she couldn't handle it and started to pull away

Erotic stories works MUCH better on more mature females say 31+. They are more likely to be drawn into the fantasy and stay with it. Those were the ones I had it work well on.

It's not for younger club AWs lol.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Thanks Stagger.

I hope I didn't sound like I was knocking verbal game. I'm not. Verbal game can be GREAT as long as the guy meets the looks requirements.

With my hair loss, I can't do "no game" pickups anymore. I have to at least try to game when I sense at least some interest.

When a guy (say a PUA) tries to use verbal game on an uninterested female, at BEST her gives her free entertainment and at worst annoys her.

But, but, but even bald, fat, ugly and older guys are with women, and hot young women too! It must be so because some people on sosuave said it's so. It must be due to verbal game lol. I haven't seen it.

You made a great point about how erotic stories might lead to ASD or LMR. My experience is it depends on her age/maturity. Yes, younger women, while they get turned on by it, can just as easily get scared off. I tried it on a 25 yo. She got quite turned on over the phone (and told me she was "putty in my hands.). But on some level, she couldn't handle it and started to pull away

Erotic stories works MUCH better on more mature females say 31+. They are more likely to be drawn into the fantasy and stay with it. Those were the ones I had it work well on.

It's not for younger club AWs lol.

I guess as Danger pointed out, that women are turned on by ideas and words, while men are turned on by sexual visuals, that it (verbals) would be equivalent to an attractive enough women putting on a miniskirt and a low cut blouse. We were already attracted to her but the sexual visuals she is showing induces us even more to want to have sex with her.

The problem is first a woman has to be attracted to you as always. And men are almost always willing to have sex with a new person he meets while women are less willing. That's the difference and where the complication lies and why using verbals is a tight rope to walk. Too much too fast and rather than get turned on she gets anxiety and turned off.

I look at this way. A female could hypothetically be about equally or at least adequately visually/physically attracted to 10 men. Unlike a man, she's never going to sleep with all of them not even close. But whether she sleeps with 0 of them, 1 or 2, is based on verbal game. But what kind of verbal game? It would seem stuff similar to the chick porn they read about.

Having said all that. My game has always been to not verbalize sexual ideas so as not to set off "ASD", rely on the fact that she is already attracted to me because of my appearance, and to just pitch isolation then physical escalate. With the hair thinning issue, getting older and not wanting/able to play the numbers game so hardcore, could changing my verbal game increase efficiency. Or in other words, could it compensate for declining appearance/looks. My past experience has not really suggest it can, but it seems like a majority of the guys believe that verbal can compensate for appearance.

You should read the book "A billion wicked thoughts". It gives great insight on the differences between men and women regarding "porn" or romance novels.

In one particulary passage I recall reading that women are not physically aroused by porn like men are. And that women get aroused by very different things.

Give it a read, it is well worth it.

Thanks for the book suggestion. We know that women have constant wicked thoughts and read these sex story novel like crazy. That have to contain storylines and ideas that get women aroused. Women need to be aroused to have sex or at least are more likely to want sex when aroused. It's the simple idea of flirtation.

 

[Burroughs]

remember all men want to fvck most women

but all women believe very few men should ever reproduce.

think on this deeply

 

[flashpoint]

On further recollection I believe when Viagra was "discovered", there was an attempt to make a similar drug to turn on women. The problem was that a lot of what turns them on is more in the brain as opposed to physical.

Thus, finding a drug to arouse them was a failure. What they still haven't realized, is that particluar drug was invented years ago when the first gold bar was dug out of the ground.

first paragraf is true. at least i remember that as well. and i have seen a documentary (BBC?) about female sexuality and it basically found the same thing. although it had an interesting twist cos they did phyiscal and cognitive testing concerning arousal with all sorts of women. of course there are some that are more sexual and others that are less, but overall an interesting phenomenon has shown. chicks dont always realize when they are aroused! so when shown pornografic scenes they had clear reactions in their body, almost similar to what you would see with a man (blood flow and such, electrostatics ...) but they were supposed to press a button as well in case they feel something and like half the time they just didnt!

so the idea was there needs to be something happening in the mind as well so they can connect the dots. a man has an erection or not, he definitely has a positive proof of his arousal, even if it just announcing itself. with a woman she needs to "feel" something as well, or better have an emotional response as well. because this way in her head it comes together and she starts to experience it only then.

well ... bottom line that is the reason why you need to be more emotional than sexual with a woman in order to seduce her. good thing is almost any emotion does the trick, she might even really hate you at that moment but cant resist the urge to fock you or rather her wish to be focked by you. it is all in the emogens.^^

 

[Mike32ct]

But, but, but even bald, fat, ugly and older guys are with women, and hot young women too! It must be so because some people on sosuave said it's so. It must be due to verbal game lol. I haven't seen it.

It must be c&f. Putting down a chick that already hates your guts because you aren't attractive (to her) will make her b*ng you <sarcastic lol>

I guess as Danger pointed out, that women are turned on by ideas and words, while men are turned on by sexual visuals, that it (verbals) would be equivalent to an attractive enough women putting on a miniskirt and a low cut blouse. We were already attracted to her but the sexual visuals she is showing induces us even more to want to have sex with her.

Women can be quite visual too. Send women to a male strip show with lots of hunky EYE candy and watch them go friggin' NUTS. Men are more tame when watching female strippers.

It's a contradiction to say that "Women are picky about guys looks, BUT they AREN'T visual." How is that possible? Does she close her eyes, walk around the club, and just ran her hands down random guys' bodies to blindly find the hot one lol? Or just rub guys' heads to find the one with the sexiest hair (or smoothest skull)? Ok, sometimes they do LOL. But my point is women are definitely visual.

But yes, ideas and words can definitely have an effect too. No question, as long as she's attracted initially.

The problem is first a woman has to be attracted to you as always. And men are almost always willing to have sex with a new person he meets while women are less willing. That's the difference and where the complication lies and why using verbals is a tight rope to walk. Too much too fast and rather than get turned on she gets anxiety and turned off.

Exactly.

I look at this way. A female could hypothetically be about equally or at least adequately visually/physically attracted to 10 men. Unlike a man, she's never going to sleep with all of them not even close. But whether she sleeps with 0 of them, 1 or 2, is based on verbal game. But what kind of verbal game? It would seem stuff similar to the chick porn they read about.

Great question. As I said, erotic story game was something I experiemented with on the phone and via text. I have not tried in person except for some erotic talk while having sex.

I haven't used it for "pickup" as of yet. It's only been tested on women I already attracted with my (earlier) pics.

Having said all that. My game has always been to not verbalize sexual ideas so as not to set off "ASD", rely on the fact that she is already attracted to me because of my appearance, and to just pitch isolation then physical escalate.

I used to do that too. When I was a total newbie, I had this (limiting) belief that you HAD TO make out with her before you pull. If she didn't tongue you, she wasn't leaving with you. I later found out that was wrong. If your looks are strong, you can just fluff talk and then ask her to leave with you. No kino. No kissing. No physical stuff AT ALL is required before she leaves with you. (Avoiding a lengthy makeout is actually better because it shows you aren't needy, leaves her wanting more, and doesn't trigger ASD.)



With the hair thinning issue, getting older and not wanting/able to play the numbers game so hardcore, could changing my verbal game increase efficiency. Or in other words, could it compensate for declining appearance/looks. My past experience has not really suggest it can, but it seems like a majority of the guys believe that verbal can compensate for appearance.

I'm in the EXACT same frame of mind. My "game" has to evolve because I honestly can't rely on my looks anymore. Not to say that I don't have some decent game up my sleeve, but it doesn't seem powerful enough to work without the looks.

I don't necessarily mind a numbers game, but it is difficult to FIND large numbers to work on. I avoid large sets (very common today and full of distractions), women under say 28 (I have pretty much no chance otherwise), women dressed in super slutty AWish ways (they're more for show), and mixed sets (don't like p*ssing matches with dudes). So on a decent night, I might only get to do two or three approaches. I never believed in just approch anything and everything. You really DO have to pre-screen.




Thanks for the book suggestion. We know that women have constant wicked thoughts and read these sex story novel like crazy. That have to contain storylines and ideas that get women aroused. Women need to be aroused to have sex or at least are more likely to want sex when aroused. It's the simple idea of flirtation.

The other thing I would add is verbal erotic stuff works best on INTELLIGENT (and reasonably mature) women. They have the best imagination. A school teacher will get way more worked up than the front desk girl at the gym.

I find intelligence sexy. But most of all, intelligent women have a deeper appreciation for good verbals. The ABSOLUTE *BEST is an ENGLISH TEACHER . Librarian is probably pretty good too.

*Just for sex. I'm not saying you should date one.

 

[Desdinova]

I've begun reading my first romance novel for the sole purpose of figuring out what kinds of stuff can turn a woman on through reading text alone. The reason behind this is to use this type of writing to turn on a woman solely through text messaging.

Some of the 5hit is the book is fvcking ridiculous, mainly the occasional stereotypical visuals that supposedly turn women on (like tall men, huge muscles, etc) but the message conveyed in the book is that the male character embraces 100% power and dominance. No man on earth can fulfill this role. The way he interacts with the woman through verbal communication is pretty much gospel on sosuave: act like you don't give a 5hit, but display 100% confidence.

What I've been noticing is how specific detail is given to when the male and female characters touch.

I'm barely into the damned book and I thought it was going to be boring as hell, but at least the corniness of the guy taking off his shirt repeatedly makes it amusing.

 

[Mike32ct]

Keep in mind that maybe only 10% or less of a romance novel is erotic stuff. The rest is some lame plot to get to the horny stuff lol.

 

[Stagger Lee]

With the hair thinning issue, getting older and not wanting/able to play the numbers game so hardcore, could changing my verbal game increase efficiency. Or in other words, could it compensate for declining appearance/looks. My past experience has not really suggest it can, but it seems like a majority of the guys believe that verbal can compensate for appearance.

I'm in the EXACT same frame of mind. My "game" has to evolve because I honestly can't rely on my looks anymore. Not to say that I don't have some decent game up my sleeve, but it doesn't seem powerful enough to work without the looks.

I don't necessarily mind a numbers game, but it is difficult to FIND large numbers to work on. I avoid large sets (very common today and full of distractions), women under say 28 (I have pretty much no chance otherwise), women dressed in super slutty AWish ways (they're more for show), and mixed sets (don't like p*ssing matches with dudes). So on a decent night, I might only get to do two or three approaches. I never believed in just approch anything and everything. You really DO have to pre-screen.

I can totally relate with the bolded part. My options for playing the numbers game is to go to the bar and everyone is under 28, in mixed sets as if just social circles intermingling. What few non-mixed sets are usually 3 or more girls. No decent wing, and I'm in my late 30's, thinning hair. It's hard to play a numbers game when there aren't really good numbers to approach.

So I turn to online which is definitely a numbers game in sending out mesages and having conversations to get a meet up. But now due to thinning hair by my calculations, an in-person meet up from online that use to be a sure thing is no longer a sure thing. So instead of at least every other meet up ending in a hook up, it might be every 5 or 10. Meanwhile I can't let these increased failures discourage me or effect my mythical but essential "confidence" level. (You me both know it's always about looks and most probably the thinning hair).

From what I've been able to determine with the numbers game, even the better looking most successful guys are only getting a approach to lay percent of 5%-10%. Lately I'm probably under 5%. I don't have the opportunity or motivation to approach 30-100 girls to get a pull.

So increasing efficiency (which has been dropping already) is needed. There's not much more I can do besides try to change up my verbal material. I saw dominance and power mentioned. But in order to have any dominance or power you must have attraction first, not the other way around.

It's still a dam tight rope you have to walk between not being sexual and showing an interest enough and being too sexual too fast. My approach with the online dating was to realize the girl liking my pics was the main reason she was interested, get her to meet in-person and escalate. I honestly think I met about all the girls that I could with the current crop on pof and struck out with most of them. So getting new meet ups has been tougher and might my require waiting for new chicks to come on the site lol.

 

[Dominance]

They prove that women are full of **** when they say what they want. Because none of that bull**** is in these books I assume, the guys don't buy flowers and pander to her crap.

 

[nismo-4]

Hey Stagger Lee, Judge nismo has to review this!

First, I'm of the school of thought that attraction can not be created unless it's already there. Word choice and tactics can't create attraction, but can increase or kill it. Attraction is primarily her response to your appearance.

Your game, personality, sense of humor, swagger doesn't make you any better looking, physically and financially. All of these leverage attraction, and the fact that attraction can't be negotiated doesn't help.

However, it generally accepted in the mainstream and in pick up circles that women get sexually turned on by words and ideas (whereas men are mostly turned on visually). This may be where the myth or confusion that women do not care as much about looks originates.

This myth is bullsh*t to the 5th power!

My argument is they care a lot about looks maybe moreos than men but also require words (conveying of personality) to get the attraction going into a sexual response.

"Game" multiplies attraction. Meaning that attraction has to be there. What's zero multiplied by two? ZERO!

I guess where I'm going with it is, women have an undeniable strong tendency to read romance and sexual stories and they get turned on by it. In other words women are as lustful or more than men.

They want the guy on the front cover to bang them, but since it won't happen, they'll fantasize.

Yet don't seem nearly as open to actually physically acting on that lust as men are. And also is there anything in romance novels that would be useful as conversational material or is all just a bunch fantasy stuff that would not apply in real life interactions.

It's all a bunch of fantasy sh*t! I have yet to see that happen in real life! Romance novels my ass! It's just a way for the author to make money, thinking the women will find "love". It's amazing how much money they'll spend on nonsensical bullsh*t like this.

Read bet- That's how I see it.

 

[Naughty Ninja]

A lot of people have a vested interest in keeping the "looks don't matter (much)" myth alive. I will list those...

1. Hot guys want to believe they have "great game" because it is a bigger ego boost to believe they have magic "swagger/confidence/charm" or whatever you want to call it, than just accept that their looks did 85% of the work for them. (Remember that looks aren't always aesthetic handsome looks. It could be as simple as being tall or having broad shoulders or sexy hair or a really masculine face or just a bad boy look.)

2. Women want to keep the looks thing quiet because they hate to look shallow, even though they are.

3. Less attractive guys really want to believe that looks don't matter because it gives them "hope."

4. Pickup gurus want #3 men as customers/clients, so they keep telling you that looks don't matter.

5. Academic nerdy types point to research that shows that a guy's looks aren't necessarily number one to find a woman for a relationship. This is TECHNICALLY true. But, they neglect the research that shows that it's a TWO TIER system. For a ONS or FWB or STR thing, the guy's looks are SUPER CRITICAL. For a relationship, his looks are important, but there is some "wiggle room" if you have other things going for you.

Mike32ct nailed it.

Better work out, groom and dress your best. All the other stuff comes after.